ok the purple fiero in my sig. is a carbed 350 . to tell you the truth i hate carbed set-ups unless it is 600+ hp. who can tell me what is involved in doing the camaro injection set-up in a fiero .
------------------ DONE: 86gt 5 speed 4.9 complete rebuild with buds outback northstar pistons , delta cams E303 cam , full ported , polished , stronger head springs, and flow tested heads and manifolds. rockcrawl's custom chip , polished crank . too much to list
Depending on the year of your 350 you may need to change the heads so the fuel injection units intake will bolt up. Other then that you would need to get the TPI set up along with a working harness and ECM all from the donor car. You will also have to do instal a higher flow fuel pump to keep up with the injection unit. I did this to a friends 87 Chevy short box which originally came with throttle body injection so he atleast had the proper heads, it was not that hard but again there is a lot more room to work in a truck then a Fiero. Dan
my engine is a crate engine and according to the casting here is the info. 10036033 350 4 Goodwrench crate motor, 2-piece rear seal, "Hecho en Mexico" so i have no idea about the year
The easiest and probably the best is a TBI conversion with a good intake manifold. Edelbrock has some equipment as I recall that will bolt on with very little work, including an electronic module to go with it.
Throttle body injection will not be much of an improvement as it is not much more then an electronically controlled carb when it comes to the 350 engine. Best way to tell if you need different heads is the angle the centre bolts on each side of the intake go in at the older ones are the same angle as the rest of the bolts on the intake and the newer ones the bolts in the middle go almost straight down into the head. This was done to make these bolts easier to instal and tighten. On TBI intake manifolds you can elongate the holes enough to bolt the intake on older engines but the TPI intake does not have the room to play that way. I went through the trouble of converting a carbed 350 to a TBI in an Astro van I built up years ago to get it to pass emissions, well it passed but I found the carb was more fuel eficient because I could set it up the way I wanted. On my friends truck the power difference was very noticeable and his gas mileage greatly improved after being converted from TBI to TPI mind you his engine has nice flat top pistons and a few other extras that were done when it was rebuilt. The TPI set up from any of the F body 305 of 350's will work as well as the Vette ones or if you want to spend a few extra bucks there is a few after market set ups that work even better. Dan
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09:38 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
I have seen alot of really nice aftermarket systems out there that are designed to do just what your describing.
I remember researching a few that had really nice ECU's that supported active wideband tuning automatically and stuff. If you have the $800+ or so to spend on an aftermarket setup, I think it would be well worth it over a dated GM setup as it would be an afternoon in the garage with a few wrenches, compared to a few months of planning and manufacturing that a GM conversion could take for a true multiport injection setup.
If I was to do it, I would end up making a full out LS1 ECU conversion, including spark control and fuel control, although this would be significantly harder to do, it would be the cheapest system. I think the biggest roadblock your going to run into when converting a GM system is going to be getting around the distributer inconsistency's.
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12:48 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Have said this many times. A TPI conversion is the easiest and if you learn a little the cheapest FI conversion of a carbed V8. You use your stock Fiero V6 harness, add two injector wires, extend a couple, use a 165 ECM, re-pin the ECM connector and you are running. BINs are out there for stock 5.0 engines. 5.7 just requires minor tweak if stock. This is what I am running in my TPI. TPI intakes can be found very cheap now as many are moving to LT/LS engines. But if you have the cash to throw (or don't have time) then go for an aftermarket. Now remember that they all are not made the same and some are even worst than the "20 yrs old technology". If you go that route still take the time to read, research and learn what you will be getting into. Good luck
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02:22 PM
Genopsyde Member
Posts: 774 From: Willoughby, Ohio USA Registered: Dec 2007
the older tpi manifolds (85-86) will have the older style bolt pattern, so really the heads won't matter, you just need the proper tpi manifold. Unless your crate motor came with vortec heads, then you'll have to get the vortec tpi manifold which isn't cheap at all. TBI isn't bad if you know how to work with it. I personally find it to be a lot easier to convert to because it'll be cheaper and you can use the manifold you have now, just get an adapter plate. And it just so happens that I have the hardware to do so since I switched my 91 camaro from TBI to carb, everything minus the ecm and harness. Not trying to turn this into a for sale thread tho, so pm me for more info if needed. I was an fbody enthusiest long before I came over to the fiero world so I know quite a bit about tpi and tbi, so I will be glad to help you along with whichever way you decide to go.
ps the 305 tpi's came with smaller injectors than the 350 tpi's, I think that's the only difference.
Throttle body injection will not be much of an improvement as it is not much more then an electronically controlled carb when it comes to the 350 engine. Dan
I don't see your logic Dan. A TBI mounted on a better intake will flow better than most OE FI systems. It just depends on the intake you use. Putting a TBI on the stock intake will not benefit a whole lot, I agree, but, compared to r the cost and inconvenience of converting to FI you can get a dual plane hi performance intake with a big enough TBI to feed it all the air/fuel it will need for more power for less cash outlay. Plus give you the electronic controls to manage fuel consumption.
If you plan on converting a carb'd 350 to FI the cost of reworking the top end for most of them will be pretty significant compared to improved performance IMHO.
Arn
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04:27 PM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12460 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
If you run a relatively stock engine, then the TBI setup would be the cheapest. I have purchased complete TBI setups with intake, throttle body, harness, ecm, dist, coil for $100 several times. However, once you get past a certain level of performance, tuning and drivability on a TBI can be a pain due to the wet intake and how it impacts transitionary states.
I consider Port Injection to better suited for non-stock combinations.
Once you decide to go port injection you have the option of TPI, converted LT1 intake, Ramjet (Vortec heads) and several aftermarket versions. Wiring for any of these variants is about the same. TPI will accentuate low end torque while the LT1 will allow power at higher levels. If you are building an Auto car, then TPI could be a good fit with the proper final drive ratios. I consider the LT1 intake to be better suited for the manual options due to the higher RPM capacity and the less than optimal ratios in the manual trannies.
The wiring tips from Alex4mula will make the wiring much simplier to complete and those tips apply across all the port injection versions (not just TPI) and could be modified further for TBI by repinning and using the 747/746 ecms.
I would caution on using a non-stock mix of parts from a tuning perspective. The closer the combination is to a stock application, the easier it will be to get it running right.
When I swapped from carb to EFI, I went with the Ramjet PFI ($1,600 from GM Performance Parts) and built my own harness for the 730 ecm. GM never offered a Vortec 350 (10.2:1), with ZZ4 roller cam, using the Ramjet PFI being ran by the 730.... so I pretty much had to build the bin from scratch starting with Vortec timing tables and LT1 fuel tables. Then came lots and lots of datalogging and trial and error. I went with an ostrich emulator to allow frequent changes to the bin to speed things up and eliminate the need to burn chips.
Saw a 2x double barrel TBI fed supercharged Mercury Marine 502 setup before - that's how the Merc 575SCi setup comes from the factory. Just something to think about.
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08:49 PM
Mar 16th, 2008
RCR Member
Posts: 4416 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
Shouldn't that big of a deal since the Fiero was fuel injected in the first place. The biggest pain will be swapping in a larger, hi pressure fuel pump. Just grab an entire unit off an F-body. By the sound of your engine description, you have the older style heads. GM did make a TPI manifold that would fit, but there aren't that many (I think it was '85). You could elongate the holes in the lower intake, and use adapters (used to be available). Look for or convert to the MAP setup found in the '89 and later. There are a few things you can do to increase flow on the TPI intakes, but they will be pretty much limited to 5200RPM (give or take). I have a bunch of pics of that...
Here are two I did (actually one, two different intakes) converting an '89 Formula TBI to '88TPI (with Accel DFI) then to a '95 LT1 intake.
Have fun...
Bob
BTW, the TPI/LT1 intakes will be pointing the opposite way than a typical Fiero, i.e. the air intake and throttle body will be on the passenger side.
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07:46 AM
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
from what i have found out the engine is a gm crate block . and the heads seem to be standard off the shelf heads. The casting # is 464045 - what seems to be a pre-87 cast iron head. The block casting is 10066036 = 350. -- 2 or 4 -- Target Master/Goodwrench crate motor, 2-piece rear seal, "Hecho en Mexico."
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11:13 AM
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
some good info i found If you are looking to convert your car from a 305 TPI to a 350 TPI setup, then you should find the information below rather useful. These are all the needed changes to do the conversion.
First of all, the TPI intakes (manifold, plenum, fuel rails, throttle body, runners) were exactly the same between 305 and 350 engines of the same year. There were no differences in these parts whatsoever between one engine size and the other during any year (there were however differences between the intake manifold and fuel rails between the Camaros and Corvettes). For example, a 1987 intake was the same for both a 305 and 350. Please note that this does not mean all intakes are the same throughout the years, there are differences between a 1987 intake and a 1992 intake for example.
All your belt driven accessories, brackets, exhaust, etc... will transer over from the 305 to the 350 without any problems. Once you install the TPI intake on the larger engine, you will need to note the following items that need to be changed. These are the only things you will need to change or worry about to properly convert to a 350:
Injectors The size of the injectors was a very important difference between 305 and 350 applications. ALL 305 TPI engines came from the factory with 19 lb injectors. ALL 350 TPI engines came from the factory with 22 lb injectors. The Corvettes did not have injectors any larger than the Camaro, as I have people often asking. If you want to use 19 lb injectors on a 350, or 22 lb injectors on a 305, you can, but you MUST have the injector size in the PROM changed. Otherwise, you will run into fueling problems.
Knock Sensor The knock sensor physically looks the same between the 305 and 350 version, but they do are not the same. This is very important, and should not be overlooked. The knock sensor is responsible for detecting detonation. Detonation produces a specific frequency that travels through the engine block. This frequency is different depending on engine size. In addition, it is important to note that the 350 knock sensors were different between the 85-89 TPI setups and the 90-92 TPI setups. You must use the correct one for your application. The 305 knock sensors were also different between 85-89 and 90-92.
ESC Module The 85-89 TPI setups used an external ESC module which was mounted by the firewall. This module was different between 305 and 350 engines. Changing this is as simple as disconnecting the 305 module, and plugging in a 350 module. The 90-92 TPI setups did not have an external ESC module. Instead, the ESC circuitry is contained inside the PROM. For this and several other reasons, it is important that you use the correct prom for the engine size you are using.
ECM Although there were several different ECMs used depending on what year TPI setup you have, the same ECM was used for 305 and 350 engines for a given year. The difference between the engines was the prom. In other words, the 86-89 350 TPI engines used the 1227165 ECM, and so did the 86-89 305 TPI engines. The 90-92 350 TPI F-Body engines (Camaro and Firebird) used the 1227730 ECM, and so did the 90-92 305 TPI engines. The 1985 305 TPI engines used 1226870 ECM, which is the same as the 1985 350 TPI ECM (350 was only available on the Corvette in 1985).
The Corvette used the 1227727 ECM on the 90-91 350 TPI engines. Although the Corvette was never available with a 305, the 1227727 ECM can be used on a 305 if desired.
PROM This is probably the most important change that needs to be made. Regardless of what ECM you are using, the 305 prom is setup very differently from a 350 prom. Which prom you need will depend on what ECM you use, transmission type, engine size, and a few other details. Contact us if you need help finding the correct PROM for your application.
If you have a 90-92 ECM, and you are having your PROM reprogrammed, you must start with a PROM that was originally for a 350. The 90-92 PROMs have the ESC circuitry onboard, and that cannot be changed.
The 85-89 PROMs can be changed from one engine size to another without worrying about ESC within the PROM, since the module is external on those years.
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11:32 AM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
The TPI requires a different cam to get the best out of the TPI setup, meaning a crate engine built for carb applications is not going to perform well with a TPI swap.
If you're going that far, you might as well put a good set of Alum Heads on it, after you figure out what your current compression ration is, and what size combustion chamber your current heads are.
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01:57 PM
Apr 2nd, 2008
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
ok got everything in the mail. actually sent more than i thought he was going to. have the dist, harness, pretty much everything now to figure out how to do the harness and everything else.
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10:05 AM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Since it is the same amount of work either way, I would ditch the '165 and go for a 1227730 speed density setup. You will thank me when you're not buying $200 MAF sensors to fix an idle problem.
Your intake looks to be in decent shape. Be warned the TPI runners are thin aluminum and you need to be careful with tools around them. 99% of them are now dented.
I'd suggest going to thirdgen.org and reading a lot... I think there are a lot of how-to's and threads for fuel injections swaps.
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10:52 AM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Lets see who has a better time. Wiccan is going to TPI w/ a stock computer and I'm going to LT1 with a Megasquirt2, it'll be interesting to see how this goes!
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03:21 PM
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
Lets see who has a better time. Wiccan is going to TPI w/ a stock computer and I'm going to LT1 with a Megasquirt2, it'll be interesting to see how this goes!
mine will be a little bit . i still need to powder coat laot of the parts i got. as long as i can find some purple that will match
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05:14 PM
PFF
System Bot
Apr 6th, 2008
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
so anyone have any idea's for doing the harness? pin outs for doing the set-up. or even cautions about things i will be running into that were not stock for the setup?
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04:30 PM
RCR Member
Posts: 4416 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
Hey Wican..Good deal..I forgot all about it, but I have the '87 Firebird service manual. It should have the wiring diagram, unless you switch over to the 7730 like Ryan mentioned. I'll have to grab the manual from my Dads, and copy some pages for you...
Bob
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06:07 PM
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
thats just it im not which will be less problems in the long run with the harness and computer. thats why im kinda looking tword others for options. i know there would have been things with my 4.9 swap and mods i would have done different but noone had done things like i did other than one person.
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06:17 PM
Apr 11th, 2008
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
I highly recommend using a stock GM ecm. Their BLM/INT fuel trim features allows the computer to make adjustements to the fuel and dataloging these adjustements will allow you to fine tune all but WOT with a series of datalogs (the more non-stock the engine the more datalogs it will take).
I also highly recommend starting with the 7730 ecm. Main reason is because it is highly documented and custom/upgraded base bins with custom enhancements in the base program of the BIN (not just the values entered for Fuel/spark/etc) that greatly improve its resolution.
Here are some of the resolutions offered for the VE maps that are used to fine tune fuel delivery for RPM vs. KPA:
BELOW 1600 RPM: Stock Fiero V6 Allows fuel entries every 400 RPM and 10 KPA starting at 800 RPM and 20 KPA. 27 cells for fuel entries
Stock 7730 TPI and SAUJP-V4 Allows fuel entries every 100 RPM and every 5 KPA (from 20 - 60) and every 10 KPA (from 70-100) starting at 400 RPM and 20 KPA. 169 cells for fuel entry with the lower RPM range and higher resolution. For the same 800-1600/20-100 grid as the stock V6 Fiero it would be 117 (4.3 times the resolution)
ABOVE 1600 RPM: Stock V6 fiero Allows fuel entries every 400 RPM from 1600 to 4000 RPM and every 10 KPA from 20 to 100 KPA.. Total entry cells for this grid is 63.
7730 stock TPI bin Allows fuel everies every 400 RPM from 1600 to 5600 rpm and every 10 KPA from 20 to 100. So resolution is the same, but the grid is larger due to higher RPM entries. There are 99 cells to enter a fuel entry for the grid 1600-5600/20-100.
7730 SAUJP-V4 Allows fuel entries every 200 RPM from 1600 to 6400 RPM and every 5KPA from 20 to 100. For the same grid range as the stock 7730 TPI 1600-5600/20-100 grid it has 255 entry points, which is 2.6 times the resolution. With the increased RPM the total cells increases to 289.
The greater resolution of the SAUJP-V4 will allow more precision in matching the fuel delivery to the needs of the engine and improve drivability. There are a bunch of other enhanced features with the SAUJP-V4 as well. I have been running the SAUJP-V4 (with tuned VE maps and tweaked Vortec Spark tables) for my Ramjet engine since earlier this year and it is a great improvement.
For the harness, I always disasseble the fiero engine harness and the swapped engine harness to the individual circuits and then build the new harness one circuit at a time and route the wires where I want them. I try to keep their visual impact to the overall look of the installed engine minimized. The TPI allows running most of the wires for the intake down the center under the plenum vs. along the valve covers. You could also run the portion of the wires from the 500 that need to cross the engine under the plenum as well.
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09:30 AM
Snapperhead Member
Posts: 1982 From: Grand Rapids, MI USA Registered: Jul 2006
ok need to look into which fuel pump to use. i would assume the one in the car isnt stock since it now has a 350 in it. but it may not have enough pressure. and what is involved in doing a harness. all help is appriciated
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05:23 PM
May 23rd, 2008
RCR Member
Posts: 4416 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
You can use a stock f-body/y-body pump (for TPI), or use a Walbro 255l/hr pump. The Walbro will be good for some serious hp.
You're using the F-body harness/ECM, correct? If so, it should a piece of cake. The biggest thing you will need is power, off the C203. I don't have anything specific to post, but check out the C203 & C500 pin-outs ussually posted with 3800 swaps (Rockcrawl @ fieroaddiction.com?). That will give you the Fiero side. I have the 87 Firebird body/chassis service manual, but it's at work sitting under my desk.
You can use a stock f-body/y-body pump (for TPI), or use a Walbro 255l/hr pump. The Walbro will be good for some serious hp.
You're using the F-body harness/ECM, correct? If so, it should a piece of cake. The biggest thing you will need is power, off the C203. I don't have anything specific to post, but check out the C203 & C500 pin-outs ussually posted with 3800 swaps (Rockcrawl @ fieroaddiction.com?). That will give you the Fiero side. I have the 87 Firebird body/chassis service manual, but it's at work sitting under my desk.
Have a great weekend...
Bob
thank you for the info . ill have to stop by rockcrawls house and see what he can tell me. he probably has all the wire diagrams and can offer any tips and info.
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08:59 PM
RCR Member
Posts: 4416 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
I'll try to remember to bring the book home. I shouldn't have gone to his site. I bought one of the extractor hood vents. Like I need another project.
Bob
lol i have one of those vents its at my work 1/2 done. its nice to work in a body shop. just need time to finish my projects instead of everyone else's
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09:25 PM
May 24th, 2008
FFIEROFRED Member
Posts: 751 From: GULFPORT, MS Registered: May 2008
I did a tpi 355/4t60 in my 84 fiero. I ran the stock gm computer with a mild cam. that motor was filled with water during katrina. now I have a 305 crossfire from the z/28 that my kid wrecked. You can see how I did it for both motors, including the wiring, if you watch my vid on you tube. chevy v8 fiero-4 is my build book, chevy v8 fiero-3 is a vid of my son and me with our fiero's chained back to back for a burn out. I have had a 2.5,3.0,3.8,5.7, and the junky 305 in the red car. look me up on Utube, "fierofred"
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09:49 AM
May 25th, 2008
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
I did a tpi 355/4t60 in my 84 fiero. I ran the stock gm computer with a mild cam. that motor was filled with water during katrina. now I have a 305 crossfire from the z/28 that my kid wrecked. You can see how I did it for both motors, including the wiring, if you watch my vid on you tube. chevy v8 fiero-4 is my build book, chevy v8 fiero-3 is a vid of my son and me with our fiero's chained back to back for a burn out. I have had a 2.5,3.0,3.8,5.7, and the junky 305 in the red car. look me up on Utube, "fierofred"
fierofred, intresting way to document your build. works well though.
ok as far as the building my harness. ive found out by rockcrawl that the best is to use the stock harness, and the stock computer. rockcrawl lent me use a book called SMALL BLOCK CHEVROLET Tuned Port Fuel Injection by: Frank "Choco" Munday , at the bottom it says Hot Rodders HANDBOOK. This book actually takes you through step by step on how to build your own harness. Gives you a complete pin by pin diagram on what each wire is and what to do with them. only thing im not sure of yet is what to do with the wires that go to the trans for the converter . (Im useing a 4 speed manual in this car) . Ths book also tells you the proper set-up for all the sensors and much more. It is a must for anyone that is going to build there own harness........ the book deals with the 86-89 tpi engines being put into hot rods and anything else. 1: So far we have found out the f-body fuel pump will fit with no probem 2: the best option for the harness is the stock one and the same computer also will be fine. 3: from what rockcrawl tells me you dont need a different fuel pressure regualtor since the stock set-up for the tpi will work just fine. and is located on the fuel rail. hope this all helps so far it is alot of help for me
------------------ DONE: 86gt 5 speed 4.9 complete rebuild with buds outback northstar pistons , delta cams E303 cam , full ported , polished , stronger head springs, and flow tested heads and manifolds. rockcrawl's custom chip , polished crank . too much to list
I have an 88 Corvette. You come and do the labor and Ill trade ya even up for your intake and carb. I think mine has aluminum heads. I hate FI, but take it when I have to. You can have whatever all you need off of it to make it run.
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06:51 PM
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
I have an 88 Corvette. You come and do the labor and Ill trade ya even up for your intake and carb. I think mine has aluminum heads. I hate FI, but take it when I have to. You can have whatever all you need off of it to make it run.
any pics available?
------------------ DONE: 86gt 5 speed 4.9 complete rebuild with buds outback northstar pistons , delta cams E303 cam , full ported , polished , stronger head springs, and flow tested heads and manifolds. rockcrawl's custom chip , polished crank . too much to list
Sorry to ressurect and old thread, but seeing how I"m going to be doing the same thing here in a month or so....
Any updates on this? How did it go?
Is there any difference between a "TPI" and "MPFI" system? My builder is saying that my engine should be putting out around 400-430 HP (he didn't say crank or wheels), and I don't know what other limitations I might run into with the TPI stuff.
I was planning on using the 411 PCM, one of the other boards I'm on have had some incredible progress with tuning those units, and they're abundant and inexpensive.
I've got a 350 with the vortec heads. Block 10243880
Thanks!
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12:16 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
I hated the FI so much I sold the car off. Sorry. Im old school and love carbs myself. My old carbed 66 Dodge starts faster than any of my newer FI cars even in the winter. Even beat my Hemi Magnum by about 1/2 the cranking time. It dont even need to turn over, hits about the first cylinder that fires when turning the key and its running.
I shouldn't have gone to his site. I bought one of the extractor hood vents. Like I need another project.
