Ok so in the process of building my 3800 SC II swap for my 88 Formula, we managed to develope some new mounts for the 3800 swap. I was curious to know if anyone would be interested in buying the mounts we've designed for our swap, to use in their swap. I will post some pictures as soon as I get the complete finished product back. We are currently just cleaning them up a bit so they look nice. I have 5 frame mounts to use and a dog bone as well. We can provide a dogbone and tensioner assembly for a low alternator mount setup and a SEPARATE low alternator mount as we have discovered it is easy to tear a one piece setup. I will show pics of all the mounts as soon as they are back at the shop. If there is enough interest, I will offer them for sale as a kit or piece by piece if needed. I know its hard to go without pics but I was curious to know if you guys might be interested in something different than has been offered thus far.

Get some pictures up and some run time on the mounts to make sure the setup is going to hold up and I might be interested in trying them out.

You'll be in competiton with West Coast Fiero, Purplereign and Fieroaddiction. Show the people good quality and a fair price and people should buy them.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote SEPARATE low alternator mount as we have discovered it is easy to tear a one piece setup

I have always said that a low mount dogbone setup is the best way to go.... Steel on steel, and it helps load the axles evenly.

Its good to see some interest from some familiar names so I will get pics probably about Monday for you guys. As far as low mount dogbone goes, I didnt come up with that, although it didnt cross my mind. I will just have to show the pics for you. We still used high mount bone but went all steel and a seperate alt bracket. We will be in the test and tune process next week. I appreciate the interest guys and you will be hearing back on this ASAP.

I am looking for a low mount alternator solution (with dogbone), but it will be for a Getrag, not the auto.

Our dogbone setup will work for manual or auto 3800 SC II swaps. We are going to be making a set for the 84-87 cradles also. We will have these ready in about 2 weeks to be viewed and sold. Ill be testing and tuning all week so I will update you guys with all my info.

[This message has been edited by Flyboy81 (edited 02-07-2009).]

I have custom fabbed 4 different styles of mounts, all were designed to not use a lower dogbone (although all could be tuned to utilize one in a small degree)

With a powerful engine like a 3800SC or V8, I believe that two dogbones are the best solution. I fabricated one that mounts to the stock Fiero location but won't feel comfortable until I am able to get another one in place on the transmssion side. If you look at ALL GM FWD applications they have two dog bones; one on each side.
As for the guy coming out with new mounts, lets just see what he has.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 02-08-2009).]

Two dog bones on an auto swap would not hurt to have but it is on the manual tranny swaps where a second dog bone is bigaid in holding the engine in place.
I have made up a few for manual swaps where I take the time and build up with 1/8" steel a copy on the driver's side trunk wall and strut tower of what the pass side has from the factory for mounting the dog bone then make up a nice steel plate that bolts to the tranny and comes up to a perch for asecond dog bone to moun to.
I did not design this I got the idea from a car I work on that was built by a member in eastern Canada. Dan

I know on a Grand Prix they have 2 dog bone mounts, but they only have 2 other mounts. One is underneath the front of the engine below the balancer and the other one is at the back end of the transmission. So their basically only 4 mounts on the entire set up. So if you have 5 mounts on the engine and 1 dog bone then you should have a better set up than the factory set up.

Im getting ready to do my swap....Put some miles on those mounts...Get us some pictures, and maybe I'll have to get some from ya.

I'd be interested in my upcoming (I already have the engine) 3800 swap if your mounts are as good or better (and cheaper) than the West Coast Fiero and V8 Archie mounts. This is if it's for use with the Getrag.

[This message has been edited by Rolling Thunder (edited 02-09-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Rolling Thunder: I'd be interested in my upcoming (I already have the engine) 3800 swap if your mounts are as good or better (and cheaper) than the West Coast Fiero and V8 Archie mounts. This is if it's for use with the Getrag.

I don't believe that V8 Archie is supporting the 3800SC or makes any swap parts for it. He's always been the guy to turn to for LS1, LT1, LS2 and SBC swaps and parts.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I don't believe that V8 Archie is supporting the 3800SC or makes any swap parts for it. He's always been the guy to turn to for LS1, LT1, LS2 and SBC swaps and parts.

You're right. I'm thinking of his F40 swap kit. I'd still be interested in 3800 mounts.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I have always said.........

I thought you "said" you were leaving for awhile. You sure are posting alot for someone who was going to take a "break".

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/074332.html

These mounts will be for all aspects of the 3800 swap. Series II Auto or manual and on all cradles 88 and 84-87. I didnt get the finished mounts back today as I was told I would. They are supposed to be in tomorrow. As soon as I have pics, youll see what I have to offer. Thanks for your interest guys. Sorry for the delay.

Ok here are the mounts. This setup is for an 88 cradle with the 4t65eHD and Series II SC. The engine mounts can be used on any 88 manual setup. We will soon be offering the 84-87 engine mounts as well. There are five points on the cradle we use for mounting, as you can see this is a bolt up design. There is only one place in the cradle that you would have to cut a slotted hole, it is on the welded seam along cradle below the AC bracket on the 3800. We will offer the mount kit with the rubber insulators, you will use your stock Fiero Front Motor Mount and your stock REAR Trans mount for the auto. The 5th and 6th pics are how they actually mount to the cradle and the 7th and 8th show a low alternator mount. The only thing that I didnt have today to take a picture of was the dogbone and tensioner assembly. It will be finished in the next couple days as we are perfecting the design and cleaning it up. We INCLUDE our dogbone bracket in our mount kit, you provide your dogbone. I will provide the part number for the tensioner you will need in the kit. The low alternator bracket will be seperate. We will be putting hours on this setup shortly. Let me know what you think. Thanks for your interest everyone.

[This message has been edited by Flyboy81 (edited 02-10-2009).]

Bump up

Nice job. Certainly looks like an original design with a different approach. Road testing should determine their strength.
What I do not understand is the design for the right (rear side) mount for the 4T65eHD. On the later 4T65eHD units you only have one usable ( and deep) threaded bolt hole to attach a mount there. The other is so shallow and has so few threads that it isn't of much value. (area across from the trans mount position in the Fiero cradle) . WCF handled the problem with a pin on their mount that fits into an upper trans hole that serves as a mounting bolt. . How are you dealing with that issue?

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

There is a spacer welded onto the rear of the mount and used a little shorter bolt to make the fit. Short bolt top and long bolt in bottom.

I love the style, and I really like the mount for the rear transmission area (I always found this to be the hardest...

One concern, the alternator looks like it will be quite far into the trunk area... Not a problem, but for example this alternator stuck into the trunk a good inch, and I had to cut a box out for it.



The rubber material is sorta confusing me.. It does not appear that these are rubber isolated, which while you will have some structural rigidity it will have low shock and vibration resistance. Also I dont see how the mounts are going to "load evenly" which will prevent twisting and unequal torque delivered to the drive wheels. (example, the engine mount has inches of travel, while the other mounts may have much less travel.

As the rubber is concerned, whats not shown in the picture is there will be a steel plate in between the two rubber pieces which will allow for the rubber to act more as a vibration buffer, but as you said, they are more for the strength than for the comfort. They will provide some shock resistance as well as vibration dampening but it will still have some vibration.

As far as the uneven loading goes, this was something we also thought of and what we designed here utilizes the front frame mount and front tranny mount along with the rear tranny mount to maintain the even distribution. The end tranny mount (big one with 4 bolts) and the front motor mount are mainly just for the load bearing for the weight of the engine. Alot of this is still test and tune for sure. We are almost ready to put the car on the road and try it out. I am taking the concerns and thoughts from you guys and putting them together for input into the design if needed.

As far as the alternator goes, Im not too sure how to get it much lower. Ive tried a few ideas but everything just looks as if it would be even farther out.

This whole setup is supposed to be able to allow enough clearance to be able to use the decklid without having to notch it or modify it at all. That was out intended original goal. Anyway, thanks again for the input and feel free to comment or suggest anything else we maybe could use or incorporate into this design.

[This message has been edited by Flyboy81 (edited 02-11-2009).]

I would look into ditching the stock mount (as many people would not have this anyway) and I would also go rubber isolated via a stock manufactured mount (ls1 trans mount, dodge truck mounts, ect) or a bushing design. The "rubber gasket" type mounts IMO are not going to work like a rubber mount and you would most likely be better off going 100% solid mounting at that point. The mechanical issues behind that type of mount is that you are limited to a point of rotation, or a axis, while a regular isolated mount will not have a point of pivot or reference, and will respond to shock loads in a fluid way, instead of twisting around putting a large amount of stress on a central point (think of a pop can opening tab). While this is mostly just engineering babble and the mounts themselves are most likely able to take the abuse, the cradle and bolts may be the next issue (and a rubber washer on a bolt and nut will make it vibrate off in no time at all.)

Going with solid mounting would eliminate the issue of uneven loading, but multiply shock loads significantly (input shafts on automatics and diff's or axles on manuals would be greatly reduced in lifespan).

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 02-11-2009).]

This is Flyboy81's alternator to trunk clearance.


And the engine's first test fit.

[This message has been edited by Robs Fieros (edited 02-11-2009).]

Bump to the top, plus I think we're going to modify one of our mounts just a bit.

bump.

Ok, we have taken a bit of a new approach to the design to incorporate a Isolated Rubber setup. I felt that was a pretty good idea as did my other project specialists. We still maintained a totally bolt up design. I will post pics soon, I have a few but it is hard to see them while they are actually in the car. Again, thanks for the comments and I still appreciate input.

While I like the low engine mounts, thought has to be given to exhaust routing and the running angles of the axles. . The lower the engine goes, the lower the muffler will hang, especially if you don't cut the trunk. As for axle angle you can check that visually. Stay with it.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Yeah, the exhaust should be in good shape, we will have to get in on to be sure, but all indications, so far, are looking good. The axles line up straight with the hub. Just a little above but one the suspension is loaded, it will be almost straight. The exhaust will be something very similar to WCF setup. We considered true duals and actually have an exaust man that can do it, but consider the heat and the maintenance hassle that would be, we opted against that. Our exhaust man has a true dual 3800 SC II in an 88 2M4 conversion. VERY nice.

[This message has been edited by Flyboy81 (edited 02-13-2009).]

What is the distance from the crank centerline to the bottom of the 88 cradle... just curious.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: What is the distance from the crank centerline to the bottom of the 88 cradle... just curious.

Ugg I had this measurement on my engineering document from my last set of mounts.. but I cant seem to find it...

Two things cross my mind and it may just be the picture, but is the metal thick enough on those plates where they bolt onto the engine/trans? I know WCF loses a lot of customers simply because they're mounts are a little on the thin side. Secondly, what will yall be doing as far as a dogbone goes? I mean there is 5 mounting points which makes me believe that you may not need one.

quote Originally posted by Khaos88GT: I know WCF loses a lot of customers simply because they're mounts are a little on the thin side.

If I remember, it was only 1 person that had an issue with that...

Actually we will be running a dogbone. I dont believe in not running a dogbone in this setup. These pics are just a "rough draft" so to speak. I wanted to get some input from you guys because this is my first swap and I dont know all the problems I could be facing. Actually I took what Dark said into account about having the isolated rubber mount setup and have since found a way to, more or less, intigrate that into my setup. I havent posted any new pics on the subject since the upgrade but as soon as I can get some, Ill post them. Our brackets should be more than thick enough to cover the torque and strain of the 3800 with lots of mods. We sized down to 4 cradle mounts and a dogbone. We have been perfecting the dogbone a bit. As of now, this set is bolt on. There is little if no modifying on the V6 88 cradle to make this work. We plan on making every mount solution as bolt on as possible.

Thats great then. I'm glad someone is putting some new stuff together. Any news on pricing or when testing will begin?

I am almost done with my swap. We have everything installed in the car and Im finishing up my wiring and then exhaust. I will be starting my test and tune by the beginning of next week. I will have some pics this week for you INCLUDING the dogbone. We havent really gotten the pricing worked out just simply because we are still modding and perfecting the design. It will be for the COMPLETE set. Thats 4 motor mount brackets and dogbone assembly. We also have a low Alt mounting bracket for our setup that works with the 99 and up alt.