Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions - Archive
  4.9 vs. northstar (Page 2)

T H I S   I S   A N   A R C H I V E D   T O P I C
  

Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 2 pages long:  1   2 
Previous Page | Next Page
4.9 vs. northstar by Turbowedge
Started on: 01-27-2009 02:52 PM
Replies: 54
Last post by: Will on 02-12-2009 10:53 AM
cptsnoopy
Member
Posts: 2587
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
Registered: Jul 2003


Feedback score:    (8)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 60
Rate this member

Report this Post01-29-2009 11:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cptsnoopySend a Private Message to cptsnoopyDirect Link to This Post
Well said Jay.

[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 01-29-2009).]

IP: Logged
IXSLR8
Member
Posts: 674
From: Post Falls, ID, USA
Registered: Sep 2004


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-30-2009 01:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IXSLR8Send a Private Message to IXSLR8Direct Link to This Post
Another area of difference between the 4.9 and 4.6/4.0 motors, is in the engine designs and the time and costs that go with them.

The N*'s have three times the parts as the 4.9's. That means you have to have some special tools to work on them (ie: cam & chain holder tool, flywheel holder, engine oil primer, waterpump & pulley tools, etc...). It also means that you have an extra amount of time invested in repairing and modifying them. The costs are simply greater just in the quantity of parts alone. Have a set of heads gone through and that will drive that point home! The early N*s (94-99) also have inherent problems that eventually will appear for its owner. Problems such as the head(s) lifting and blowing a head gasket. That means you will most likely be drilling out your block to install inserts to correcting the problem down the road. I did mine before I swapped it in the 88GT.

4.9s probably don't have any of the above issues making it a significantly cheaper engine swap in the long term.

The N* electrical is significant but is secondary to the above issues, I think.
I say that because you can run an early N* on a 1995 Cadillac PCM and throttle body and it will run fine with its stock GM brains. This PCM will also support 272 duration cams without any issues according to Howell Engine Developments. There are getting to be more choices out there with regard to PCM's and such. I do tend to stay away from the aftermarket computers as they have been fussy for me...at least the Haltech I've used on my GM 3800SC motor. I had to tune the car for each summer/winter weather period.

I like the N*. You just have to be willing to spend more money, more time and to learn the N* way of doing things.

You also have to be prepared to take some comments from the wife regarding the growing budget! LOL.
IP: Logged
Turbowedge
Member
Posts: 799
From: Ocala, Fl.
Registered: May 2008


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-30-2009 01:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TurbowedgeSend a Private Message to TurbowedgeDirect Link to This Post
First of all, I would like to thank the forum once again. All of your input is invaluable to someone not used to working on these cars yet. Our fieros have four wheels and an engine like any other automobile out there, but to say that they are like any other car out there would be a false statement. I have worked on my own cars for almost 25 years, and these cars are totally different than most cars out there. Which makes forums like these, and more important, the people on the forum. OK, I will get off my soapbox now . I have made the decision to go with the 4.9 with many thanks to you folks. Who knows, all the talk about the next big thing could be alot easier than the N* without all the headaches. Besides, I learned long ago that no matter how fast you are, there is always someone faster. If anyone has any more links that detail the 4.9 swap, especially when it comes to wiring, that would be great. Oh, and one more question. When I get this engine, do I need to take the ecm and wiring harness, or do I use something else? Again, many thanks.
IP: Logged
thumper_64735
Member
Posts: 704
From: Lebanon, MO, USA
Registered: Sep 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-30-2009 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thumper_64735Send a Private Message to thumper_64735Direct Link to This Post
Get everything, ECM, Wiring Harness, odds and ends bolts, etc. When I pull on engine/tranny/etc out of a donor vehicle, I get all the hardware that attaches to it, just so I have extras. As for a wiring for this swap, yes, you want the ECM and harness, unless you are going carbed. Even though I am going carbed on my swap, I am still going to pull the ECM and wiring harness out so that if I decide later to go FE, all I have to do is pull the adapter, run my fuel lines, install puter with updated P-ROM and go. If you google 4.9 fiero swap you will come up with a host of links. Here are a few links that I use:
www.angelfire.com/ga4/fierosecrets
www.angelfire.com/fl5/fiero/fierolinks_009.html
www.fieroaddiction.com/stor...page=index&cPath=1_7
www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49e.html
www.fierosails.com/fierosecrets.html
http://members.fortunecity.com/bubbajoexx/ (nice sound bit)
And of course you can use the search here in the forum and come up with a wealth of information as well.
Good luck on your swap, keep us posted on your build, and take alot of pictures
WIlliam

------------------
Hmmmmmmmmm.......now if I can just talk the Army out of an engine, I bet I can get it to fit hehehehehehe >

IP: Logged
jokerb90
Member
Posts: 366
From: Nederland, TX
Registered: Nov 2008


Feedback score:    (6)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-30-2009 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jokerb90Send a Private Message to jokerb90Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Turbowedge:

If anyone has any more links that detail the 4.9 swap, especially when it comes to wiring, that would be great. Oh, and one more question. When I get this engine, do I need to take the ecm and wiring harness, or do I use something else? Again, many thanks.



I have been digging through the forum for awhile, swiping bits and pieces of others info .. with that being said, I didn't grab the contributers name, this was cut and pasted on a build sheet I've been putting toegther --

"4.9 swap I used a "Painless Wiring" harness from a 305 Chevy tuned port injection engine. The injectors on the 4.9 are the same ones used on the 305 TPI. Most of the sensors on the 4.9 can be spiced into the harness or simpily swapped out for the 305 sensors. And the computer from the 305 tuned port can be used with a 5 speed without reprogramming. Painless Wiring" PN # 60103. It cost me $225 thru Summit. ....Or you can use a harness from a 1990-1992 tuned port engine."

again, not my info, and I can't remember who to give credit to, but I think this will be my route, and should provide more tuning options
IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 41385
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 461
Rate this member

Report this Post01-31-2009 05:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
My 4.9 was also installed by Ed Parks and company (Fiero Factory)
It *can* be a bolt-in, but they didn't choose to do it that way. The cradle was reinforced, and the engine/transaxle combo uses a 5-point mounting system. It's solid as a rock, and doesn't even require the use of a dog bone.
Ed supplies the harness. I believe it came from Injection Technologies. (?)
They are available directly from the manufacturer.
If I were looking for mounts, I'd probably get the ones from fieroaddiction, and use a dog bone of some sort.
(Ed's system is more solid, but requires welding. Outside my skill set.

As others have said, this engine is all done by 5K or so, but it has huge low end torque. Great for hole shots at stop lights.
I replaced my water pump, and pan gaskets, a few weeks ago.
Drove right to the parts store and came home with everyting I needed.

All I will say about the Northstar is that it pretty much requires that the front crossmember of the cradle be moved or otherwise modified for clearance.
Requires welding. Again, outside my skill set.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-31-2009).]

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 14300
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 236
Rate this member

Report this Post01-31-2009 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by gem1138:
I commented yesterday in this thread that the N star was the heavier choice. Am I mistaken in this belief?
I have come to believe this because I have read in N star threads of the need to upgrade brakes and modify the suspension to compensate for the weight increase.
I have not read of this being deemed necessary with the 4.9 swap.


The Northstar is about 50 Lbs heavier than the 4.9. As engine swap candidates such as iron SBC's and 3.4 TDC's go, the Northstar is still pretty light.
Upgraded brakes and suspension are just a good idea, and don't really say much about engine weight.

 
quote
Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere:
EDIT: Injection Technologies sells premade swap harnesses for this setup. Cost is high (~$700+) and IMO not even close to worth the money. But they are out there and if you have the money it can make for a weekend swap easily.


Keep in mind that their harness is scratch built with NEW components. That's what it costs to build a harness from scratch. If you want a new plug/play harness that works right first try, that's what it costs.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-31-2009).]

IP: Logged
MulletproofMonk
Member
Posts: 3096
From: Dayton, OH (Bellbrook, OH 45305)
Registered: Oct 2005


Feedback score:    (50)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 78
Rate this member

Report this Post02-07-2009 08:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MulletproofMonkClick Here to visit MulletproofMonk's HomePageSend a Private Message to MulletproofMonkDirect Link to This Post
When people are talking about the N* swaps, are people talking about the L37 N* or any N*? I ask because I have a co-worker that loves all Cadillacs but especially loves the 4.0L N* in his Aurora. He emailed me a list of N* models which slowed my decission on a N* a little.
L37 (292 hp / 288 torque, 295 hp / 290 torque, 300 hp / 295torque)
LD8 (270 hp / 300 torque, 275 hp / 300 torque)
LH2 (320 hp / 315 torque)
LC3 Supercharged (443 hp / 414 torque, 469 hp / 439 torque)
L47 (250 hp / 260 torque) this is the Aurora engine
LX5 Short North V-6 (215 hp / 230 torque)

He also said that the older L37 N* uses premium fuel and the newer N* doesn't but the newer N* uses the Drive-By-Wire.

Can you N* swappers confirm/deny any of this (without flaming)?

-Brian
IP: Logged
jerry455
Member
Posts: 238
From: sterling hts mi usa
Registered: Jun 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-07-2009 12:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jerry455Send a Private Message to jerry455Direct Link to This Post
back in '92 while working for cadillac on a road trip in florida we had 2 sevilles, 1 had a production '94 4.9, the other had a production '94 northstar. while driving next to each other on the interstate ( i don't remember which one ) the trip computers were showing we were getting 23 mpg on the 4.9 and 24 mpg on the northstar. the northstar was noticeably faster but only after the take off,4.9 was more responsive off the line, the northstar was faster on top end. either one sounded wonderful, some thing about a v-8 that other engines lack but that is subjective also. if you are on a budget i don't think a 4.9 is a bad choice.
IP: Logged
edmjay
Member
Posts: 111
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: Aug 2008


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-10-2009 05:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for edmjaySend a Private Message to edmjayDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk:

When people are talking about the N* swaps, are people talking about the L37 N* or any N*? I ask because I have a co-worker that loves all Cadillacs but especially loves the 4.0L N* in his Aurora. He emailed me a list of N* models which slowed my decission on a N* a little.
L37 (292 hp / 288 torque, 295 hp / 290 torque, 300 hp / 295torque)
LD8 (270 hp / 300 torque, 275 hp / 300 torque)
LH2 (320 hp / 315 torque)
LC3 Supercharged (443 hp / 414 torque, 469 hp / 439 torque)
L47 (250 hp / 260 torque) this is the Aurora engine
LX5 Short North V-6 (215 hp / 230 torque)

He also said that the older L37 N* uses premium fuel and the newer N* doesn't but the newer N* uses the Drive-By-Wire.

Can you N* swappers confirm/deny any of this (without flaming)?

-Brian


Yep... N* has become somewhat of a general term... Most of the time when we (fiero swappers) refer to a Northstar, we mean a 4.6L L37 or LD8. I've heard alot of people call the 4.0L L47 a SmallStar, and the 3.5L LX5 is often called a ShortStar.

You are correct that the older models required premium fuel only, I beleive this applied to both the L37 and LD8 in the early versions, and the later versions were tuned to run on regular. I have a 02 L37, but I still run premium all the time. If your swap enables you to control ignition advance, you can set any of them up to run whichever fuel you prefer.

You are also correct that the newer ones use drive-by-wire. This can be taken care of by installing an older cable throttle body, of course you will have to make certain whatever engine management system you choose will work accordingly.

In my opinion, for our relativly light fiero's, the L37 is the better choice. More than enough torque to break the tires loose, and the high-rpm power is amazing. At the track I have such a hard time launching I'm tempted to try and tune out some of the bottom end torque so I can keep the tires stuck to the track, and bring it back in around 2000rpm once I'm moving.. Once again, just my opinion there.

For more infromation about all the N*'s and the vehicle's you can find them in, etc.. check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Premium_V_engine

-Jay

------------------
87 GT Stock 2.8L 5spd
86 GT Northstar 5spd

IP: Logged
Fieroseverywhere
Member
Posts: 4242
From: Gresham, Oregon USA
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score:    (14)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 89
Rate this member

Report this Post02-10-2009 07:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Keep in mind that their harness is scratch built with NEW components. That's what it costs to build a harness from scratch. If you want a new plug/play harness that works right first try, that's what it costs.



Yea its new. Still not worth the money IMHO. Thanks for adding that bit of info Will.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 02-10-2009).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Will
Member
Posts: 14300
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 236
Rate this member

Report this Post02-11-2009 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by edmjay:
You are correct that the older models required premium fuel only, I beleive this applied to both the L37 and LD8 in the early versions, and the later versions were tuned to run on regular. I have a 02 L37, but I still run premium all the time. If your swap enables you to control ignition advance, you can set any of them up to run whichever fuel you prefer.


The '93-'99 L37's will not make full power on regular fuel, but they will *run* on it. There are different pistons for OBDI vs. OBDII, but they compression ratio stayed the same (I think 10.5:1). These engines use hydraulic flat tappets. Ignition was waste-spark via DIS. The crankshaft sensor setup is specific to the Northstar.

For '00 and later, the Northstars got roller-follower valvetrains. These use the same parts as the Ecotec and Vortec 4200 valvetrains. The chambers were enlarged and modified. Pistons are true flat tops and compression dropped to (I think) 10.3:1. Roller cam cylinder heads have improved intake ports over the flat tappet heads, but the exhaust ports are worse. Ignition is via coil-per-cylinder. The coils are mounted in plastic modules that bolt to the cam covers. The crankshaft reluctor wheel was changed and is incompatible with the older electronics. The intake manifold was changed to match the new intake ports and is not backwards compatible.

For '04 the VVT Northstar was introduced for RWD apps only. It has variable cam phasing on all four cams. It retains the roller valvetrain. The exhaust ports are improved to match the intake ports. This is thus the engine with the highest naturally aspirated power potential. Ignition is via coil-per-cylinder with individual coils. The crank reluctor wheel was changed to 58X across the board, but I'm not sure if that was for '04 or '06. The crankshaft was changed from cast to forged.

ALL Northstars have hypereutectic pistons and powdered metal connecting rods, even the supercharged engine.
IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 14300
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 236
Rate this member

Report this Post02-11-2009 10:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post

Will

14300 posts
Member since Jun 2000
 
quote
Originally posted by edmjay:
In my opinion, for our relativly light fiero's, the L37 is the better choice. More than enough torque to break the tires loose, and the high-rpm power is amazing. At the track I have such a hard time launching I'm tempted to try and tune out some of the bottom end torque so I can keep the tires stuck to the track, and bring it back in around 2000rpm once I'm moving.. Once again, just my opinion there.


Automatic transmission? Tires? Suspension? What 60' times are you running?

I LIKE the low RPM torque. 1000 RPM in fifth doesn't encumber it at all, yet it still pulls to 6500. I love it. It's a Cadillac. Always effortless, never working hard, yet able to deliver the goods in all operating conditions.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-11-2009).]

IP: Logged
edmjay
Member
Posts: 111
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: Aug 2008


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post02-11-2009 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for edmjaySend a Private Message to edmjayDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Automatic transmission? Tires? Suspension? What 60' times are you running?

I LIKE the low RPM torque. 1000 RPM in fifth doesn't encumber it at all, yet it still pulls to 6500. I love it. It's a Cadillac. Always effortless, never working hard, yet able to deliver the goods in all operating conditions.



5spd getrag, falken something or others, I'm looking into a set of drag radials for next spring, intrax lowering springs but otherwise stock suspension... I cant seem to find any of my time slips, but I do remember I havent broken the 2 second 60 ft mark yet, and average 13.6sec in the 1/4... still needs a fair bit of tuning in the top end.

It also has the stage 4 spec clutch, and i'm still getting used to launching with it being so grabby.. No doubt it's mostly the loose nut between the steering wheel and the seat, but like I said, in my opinion I'd rather have more HP than torque in my fiero..

-Jay
IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 14300
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 236
Rate this member

Report this Post02-12-2009 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
I ran a 12.86@106 in my '87 GT w/ Northstar Getrag. I cut a 1.92 sixty time. I could have done better but the CenterFarce clutch wasn't up to the task. I also had some wheel hop issues due to using Gabriel struts in my coil overs at the time. I was running 255/50-16 Firehawk SZ50-EP's.

It was amazing, but the car would hook up in 1st gear from a roll no matter what. I had to drop the clutch pretty hard to break loose.

I was using the OBDI PCM with the dyno evaluation chip that's currently floating around the internet. It's supposedly for a 275 HP engine but my engine was an L37. Figure there's 15-20 more HP left in the tune I was running.

What altitude are you? What computer are you using?

With the 282, the Northstar does very well in the "middle half" of the track. Cutting a really good 60 is tough, and the 4th gear that's too tall kills the top end charge. With Konis, a SPEC stage 3, Quad4 foruth gear and 3.94 final, I think I can get low in the 12's with no engine side changes.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-12-2009).]

IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 2 pages long:  1   2 


All times are ET (US)

T H I S   I S   A N   A R C H I V E D   T O P I C
  

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock