For all the guy looking to run High compression or high boost I just talked to this company
http://www.snowperformance.net/index.php there saying with there kit you can run High bost or compression with a 50/50 mix water and methanol there saying it like runing 116 race gas.
12.5 to compression anyone I know that i world war ll they used this type of tech so it must work

I added water injection to my GT when I installed the supercharger. I have about 9.5 to 1 compression and running 7-8 lbs boost, so detonation was a concern. There was also the added benefit of it cooling the charge since you generally don't bother with an intercooler at low boost levels. I have it set to start pumping at 5psi, it works great. The Blue "winter" windshield washer fluid (without detergent) is perfect for the job I buy a case of 4 jugs when it's on sale.

As added protection, I also installed a knock sensor and an 85 ECM with the knock sensor programing activated.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050119-2-054278.html

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3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

i use a snow system on my ecotec turbo .mine comes on at 4 psi and goes full on at 8 psi .it is run off a boost signal to from the charge pipe .according to my HP tuners scan i get the odd bit of KR during part throttle running but 0 KR during full throttle runs .these systems are great for turbos but for whatever reason do not seem to do much good on the 3800SC motors .

It doesnt help with the supercharged setups just because its lame.

It will work with any engine and it realy works this type of system was used on WW ll airplanes and i had looked into one many yers ago and used one on a NA engine but was a lower tech unit its like any thing it MUST BE TUNED for your engine but you should be able to run the boost up to 20 pluse pounds

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 11-11-2008).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: It doesnt help with the supercharged setups just because its lame.

Thank you DH for your insightful input, now would anybody else actually care to discuss the merits of this system?

from what they told me it is like adding 25 points of octane to your gas due to methanol is realy high octane fuel and they spray it in under high pressure with a high pressure pump it allso cools the intake charge

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 11-11-2008).]

I dont think anyone knows the reason why it doesnt work with SC setups... Some say the cooling effect is lost on the rotor blades, some say its because the outlet temps are too hot.

I say that water injection is completely usless, and it hurts horsepower more than it helps it. In situations where you can make a ton of extra power from higher octane gas, then you can usually easily overcome the power loss it works, but there is also another problem with race gas not helping out SC setups either... so your at a double lose situation.

So in short, it doesnt work, because water injection just doesnt work with them.

I wonder if injecting it after the SC would make it work that might be the thing I think if you where to talk to the guy at snow he could tell you

Thats the way the people I know who have done it have done it, it still is useless.

I dont understand why but it worked on WW ll supercharged and turbo charged planes just maybe the new supperchargers dont like the stuff but from what I have heard the turbo guys love it

Its not a matter of working or not, its a matter of horsepower.

it works on turbos and NA engines as well .and it works on MOST SC engines as well .why it doesnt work on that cast iron 50's motor i have no idea .

it worked on late 30 early 40 P51 Mustang not sure if they where turbo or SC

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 11-12-2008).]

It was supercharged, most american WWII aircraft engines at the end of the war were supercharged

The operative word here is water injection, in the past many have knocked the benefits of it and have quoted Corky Bell's comment about it being some form of bandaid instead of a proper boosted install.

Water injection is not the same thing as water/meth injection and the terms should not be used interchangeably as the effects are different. Initially only water was used resulting in a high risk of quenching the combustion mixture if not metered properly. Corky's comments have to be put in proper context (he said water injection) as well considering the technology at the time of his comments which I'm sure are mostly well into the two digit years old.

I'm running 7 psi with 9.8:1 compression on pump gas with no intercooling yet and there is room for more boost but that's more a function of the cylinder head design. Water is free, so I have a hard time criticizing its injection into an engine and being afforded the ability to increase boost levels to obtain more power than I could without it due to its anti knock properties. Water/meth will increase this advantage even more.

I've read quite a bit about it as I have purchased a kit for my engine. I have read that there is also a benefit on turbo engines from installing a proper size nozzle ahead of the compressor in addition to one before the intake. As long as the mist is fine and a water/meth mix which is less dense than water alone is used the blades are not harmed.

The catch to this technology is necesity, the more effective the intercooler when used with it, the less effective the injection tends to be. I don't know why it doesn't work on the 3800SC either but it does wonders for turbocharging.

The current use of ethanol in modern fuels to cheat us out of some of the gas we pay for at the pump is supposed to help reduce the tendency for detonation also but unlike water/meth it kills your gas mileage which common sense suggests its use is nonsense if the purpose is for fuel conservation / independence, and environmental concerns, yet the end result is increased fuel use from poorer fuel economy and higher costs everywhere else. The gov't doesn't think we are very smart obviously.

Read this stuff:

http://www.alcoholinjection...es/article_info.html

This one has a calculator for nozzle size toward the bottom of the page;

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-12-2008).]

Thanks for that info it's great

quote Originally posted by Tanlrat: It was supercharged, most american WWII aircraft engines at the end of the war were supercharged

Supercharged airplane engines are almost exclusively centrifugally supercharged. The centrifugal chargers were almost always integral with the engine block as well. I'm not aware of a single case that used a roots blower; I only said "almost" in case there's one I didn't know about.

the other thing you can do with water/meth is to increase your timing back up to where it was before you put on your turbo .or in some cases even increase it beyond stock levels .this can give you a substantial increase in horsepower and fuel mileage .i have a test done by a magazine on a WRX where they put on a snow system and then dyno tuned .they increased the advance and got another 30 HP without any detonation .the obvious danger is running out of water/meth , but you can get an optional low level alarm with the system .i just check mine every day .

With a turbo methanol injection is junk unless you run low boost with an intercooler. If you tune like a NA motor add methanol for the boost it will work, but this takes an extra set of injectors. The m90 supercharger AIT's would be way to high for the methanol to do any good. Methanol won't act like C16 unless it reaches the cylinder at a low enough temp to do some cooling. The best we ever got it to work has with with five NOS fuel soleniods one before the intercooler four before the TB on a turbobuick. This setup ran 28# of boost and ran a 11:02, but it would run great one day the next it would pop a head gasket. This was about 10 years ago. Now all we run is C16 or Q16 with up to 38# of boost.

water meth is chemical cooling .the temperature of the mix isnt a big factor .cooling it as much as you can would help the same as cooling your gasoline down does , but the fine spray that goes in before the throttle body is going to heat up before it gets to the pistons .the evaporation of the water cools the pistons and the increased octane of the alcohol reduces detonation .it is not a cure-all for a flawed setup .and it works on all levels of boost .hahn racecraft uses it on their drag cars at over 30 psi of boost .you have to make sure your spray is going in at higher pressure than your boost is going to be at or nothing is going to get in there .spray nozzles are used to send the mix in , not fuel injectors . the new water meth kits made by snow and others are a far cry away from the windshield washer pump setups that were popular years ago .the pump on my setup will push up to around 100 psi .

Probably should have not said anything on this forum as my experience with meth is always pushing the limit of safe with high boost and timing. Being this is more of a street car forum it won't apply to many people on here.

My opinion it is only worth running if you going to run it straight because you need to drop weight for your class, and/or setup won't allow a air/water intercooler. There is only so much chemical cooling you can do trust me you will not run 30# plus and have a lean fuel mixture. When you run it 100% you have to run it so rich meth washes into the oil and the top of the cylinders take a beating. Don't know what pump you are using, but because it will put out 100 psi don't mean it will feed the approx 500 hp of fuel that we were feeding. Now days with oxygenated fuels it doesn't pay to run meth.

I think all the info that has been given is great not that i am going to turbo but i will be trying to run 11.5 to 1 and snow said no problem I am goning NA maybe a 150 shot of nitrus but that would be down the road a bit

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 11-12-2008).]

Sorry about getting off track on you.

I honestly hate it when people try to tell me water injection is worlds different from "METH" injection.

Its the same idea, the "added octane" effect is really a joke, and the power gain from the "meth" is very small due to the horridly low stoich air fuel ratio of "meth".

Water/meth/dog crap injection all works the same, it evaporates and extracts heat, and dilutes the combustion. It rarely makes more power than it subtracts. Any properly intercooled, properly octane'd setup will make stupid amounts more horsepower than a "meth" injected car, simple as that.

I also hate when people bring up the whole "airplane" argument..... last time I checked I wasn't racing at 20,000 feet. I also dont know of any plane that uses water injection currently....

People saying that they are making more power on pump gas with the meth injection, are also mostly wrong due to the fact that nearly all the gas out there is currently already oxygenated in some way, most with ethanol (a better form of "meth", at least it contains more energy per volume). Adding more junk on top of oxygenated gas just further dilutes the combustion.

quote Originally posted by saywhen: because it will put out 100 psi don't mean it will feed the approx 500 hp of fuel that we were feeding

Why on earth would it have to?

I think what they are saying is this if you you are running on pump gas then this will let you turn up the boost or up the compression and not back off the timing so more power but i dont think they are trying to claim the same power out put if you ran race gas . Besides formula 1 cars ran it in the 80's im sure those enginers Know a thing or two.

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 11-12-2008).]

finally somebody hit the nail on the head .water meth by itself does not produce any more power .it is just an aid to run increased boost and timing to get more power . if all you do is add a water meth system without doing anything else , all you are doing is adding weight .as for more fuel during boost situations , i have HP tuners and a 6:1 Vortech FMU and a 100 psi fuel pump that kicks in when th water meth is pumping .but all that stuff was added after i put on the larger injectors and the water meth system .that is for going beyond the 8-12 psi of boost i have been running up till now .

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I honestly hate it when people try to tell me water injection is worlds different from "METH" injection. Its the same idea, the "added octane" effect is really a joke, and the power gain from the "meth" is very small due to the horridly low stoich air fuel ratio of "meth". Water/meth/dog crap injection all works the same, it evaporates and extracts heat, and dilutes the combustion. It rarely makes more power than it subtracts. Any properly intercooled, properly octane'd setup will make stupid amounts more horsepower than a "meth" injected car, simple as that. I also hate when people bring up the whole "airplane" argument..... last time I checked I wasn't racing at 20,000 feet. I also dont know of any plane that uses water injection currently.... People saying that they are making more power on pump gas with the meth injection, are also mostly wrong due to the fact that nearly all the gas out there is currently already oxygenated in some way, most with ethanol (a better form of "meth", at least it contains more energy per volume). Adding more junk on top of oxygenated gas just further dilutes the combustion.

The importance here is to acknowledge that straight water vs. a water/meth mix will produce different results, the fact that the concept is the same goes without saying in the same sense it is understood that in order to get outside of a modern house in America, at some point you will need to open the door without being told to do so regardless of what kind of material it is made of. Therefore if water and water/meth is the same to you, then likewise whether you are racing at sea level or 20,000 feet as you stated you were not doing should be a moot point because it's the same idea.

A greater service can be performed in this thread if we deal with the facts as they relate to the question that was posed regarding water injection with or without meth.

Will it help reduce detonation in a high compression engine? yes

What each of us feels about it in depth personally beyond what was asked is extra and certainly not worth getting upset and hateful over. It's all a matter of choice.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: A greater service can be performed in this thread if we deal with the facts as they relate to the question that was posed regarding water injection with or without meth..

I did mention that it makes no difference, IMO at least.

quote Originally posted by Will: Why on earth would it have to?

If you tune like a NA motor add methanol for the boost it will work, but this takes an extra set of injectors.

Its rather simple. To run high boost/timing with meth you have to run higher % than most kits run to get the chemical cooling to raise the motor octane enough.

quote Originally posted by engine man: Besides formula 1 cars ran it in the 80's im sure those enginers Know a thing or two.

Were do you think the GN enginering was performed I know a thing or two about Buick V6 Formula 1 cars. Also my father and uncle worked on the development team for the turbo regals. They worked on a prototype water/ meth system (which was found to be unrelible). Formula 1 ran 100% meth with 30# plus boost and old inefficient turbos with air/ air intercoolers. Back in the 80's they didn't have oxygenated race gas.

The key to this whole discusion is motor octane not the typcal rating you hear. The idea with meth is to run enough of it to keep the combustion chamber temp down to stay out of detonation. Many race gases like VP C16 will have a high enough motor octane to stay out of detonation. Then you have Q16 which is the highly oxygenated but has slightly less motor octane.

A little about are current drag car its a SBF 408 ci with AFR 225 heads and a PT 106mm turbo 1800 horsepower 188mph for now. With this setup race gas will make just as much or more horsepower.

Engine Man
With the amount these kits flow you will be ok as it is a little better than pump gas.

something to keep in mind...
when running alky'water (or meth/water) you should tune for it.
More timeing is possible and taking some fuel out when under boost
(and on the alky/water) will make a huge difference in torque and hp numbers.
Some guys have switched to straight meth and seen awsum improvements
after tuning for it.
With data logging I can see an instant difference in my IATs when i toggle it in and out.
I went from a little KR at 0* initial timeing to 0 KR with about 3* initial dialed in (which in essence adds 3* across the board)

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87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6
Bully Stage 2 clutch
Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner
Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection
50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump
LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system
T31/T04B H3 turbo and a S10 caliper conversion.
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

[This message has been edited by vortecfiero (edited 11-12-2008).]

like it said pump gas it will let you run high compression or higher boost and more timing on pump gas i dont want to run down and get race gas if i was going to do that i would run on Methanol and go to Hilborn and get a Fuel injection system

quote Originally posted by saywhen: If you tune like a NA motor add methanol for the boost it will work, but this takes an extra set of injectors. Its rather simple. To run high boost/timing with meth you have to run higher % than most kits run to get the chemical cooling to raise the motor octane enough.

I hope you're not assuming that someone would try to dump 500 HP worth of methanol into a car because he didn't have enough injector for gasoline... That would be a ridiculous thing to do.

quote Originally posted by engine man: like it said pump gas it will let you run high compression or higher boost and more timing on pump gas i dont want to run down and get race gas if i was going to do that i would run on Methanol and go to Hilborn and get a Fuel injection system

The reason I got on this thread was because you were told it is like running 116 octane. This comment is very misleading the motor will be more like 102 or so with the amount of meth/water you are spraying. Again you will be fine.

quote Originally posted by Will: I hope you're not assuming that someone would try to dump 500 HP worth of methanol into a car because he didn't have enough injector for gasoline... That would be a ridiculous thing to do.

No I'm not saying that at all. It's about the cooling to get the motor octane up.

I think that most of you agree it helps so you can run a higher compression or boost and keep timing but how much it helps is what is debatable

quote Originally posted by engine man: I think that most of you agree it helps so you can run a higher compression or boost and keep timing but how much it helps is what is debatable

Check around for more input from individuals that are actually using it for a more realistic view of what you can expect. For every 10 degrees you drop the inlet temperature you can expect about a 1% increase in power from the denser air charge, along with the anti-knock characteristics. I've pasted this link before so in case you are not familiar with it you can email the individual in the link in regards to the benefits he experienced during a dyno run using a homemade injection kit.

We tend to be more specific than is necessary at times as many of us know that tuning is always required when the engine efficiency is affected by a performance enhancement.

Now days there's equipment available to make water injection dependable as well as more efficient with variable flow rate controllers and safety modules that prevent boost in the event of a pump failure in addition to any safety mechanism you can design into the system yourself.

As far as GM not finding it reliable many years ago back when the Grand National was being made, you have to keep in mind the average driver for years couldn't be depended on to perform routine maintenance like oil changes so expecting the general public to keep a water/meth tank adequately supplied at all times is a disaster waiting to happen when the average driver of a turbocharged vehicle couldn't even tell you how it contributes to the engines performance.

It has worked quite well for this guy who is now running 12.2 in the quarter with his 60 degree motor, scroll down to the 9th post:

http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyf...895631e4839a6e0.html

Ebay has some good deals at times, that's where I purchased my controller for a variable injection rate. You maybe able to find a good deal on a Snow kit there as well. Keep reading until you find the facts you need to make a decision about it.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-13-2008).]

having used it and understand enough about it i can say that it works perfectly fine on superchargers. if sprayed right next to the outlet to the blower the high temperatures generated by the rotor group hindering the inefficency of its design can be offset. the whole reason people hold turbos to making more power is because when they compress air they do so more efficently, generating less heat and thus a denser aircharge. if the right amount of water/alky mix is injected it evaporates and disperses and wont affect the air fuel mixture. people have even said it aids in dispersing the air/fuel mixture more evenly across the cylinder which makes more power and prevents detonation. methanols intercooling ability isnt as good as water but is still better than an intercooler at absorbing heat. it can also burn as a fuel instead of quench the combustion chamber as water would.

i dont think it would work so good for an NA engine. i dont think the intake temps will be high enough to boil enough water to matter.