Has anyone done the WCF 12" brembo brake upgrade yet?? If noone knows, could someone possibly tell me what the forum URL is for that area club? I'd really like to know how it works...
edit to add: Page 2 OWNAGE!!
------------------ Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in.... Enzo Ferrari....
Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.... Enzo Ferrari...
Today they are called garage's, yesterday, they were stable's! Eric Jacobsen....
[This message has been edited by pavo_roddy (edited 10-28-2008).]
not so much "allow" as "result in", but yeah, you're right. The Ferrari 308 has a 22mm MC and the same size caliper pistons as the fiero (though on the ferrari they are fixed 2-pots instead of floating single-pots). The porsche 911 at one point used a 20mm (well, 20.something mm) MC with the same size calipers as the ferrari 308. But there is probably a reason why GM decided to use a larger MC, though it's sort of unclear.
I would guess cost?!?
They spent billions of dollars on the design and production of the Fiero and ended up cutting corners on smaller but just as important parts. I believe because GM stepped in and told them they needed to keep the cost down?
Either way, I see it as GM built the Fiero as a gimmick. It was unique and they figured it would bring new customers to the company. Also, the things they spent a lot of money designing (steel monocoque design where every body part bolts on and is interchangeable, dent resistant panels, etc) were all used in other cars, so they killed two birds with one stone. They figured they'd be able to say that they spent all of that money on the fiero and weren't making enough off it so they could cancel production whenever, and they would have brought in new people and new designs to be used on other cars. I know that thought may be way out there, but from everything I've read (prototype fiero performing up there with stock vette of same year, dif reasons gm gave for closing plant, etc) and know, it's the best explanation I can come up with.
I guess I come at this question from a completely different perspective than most opf the people on this site. I don't give a damn, really, how something looks, I am only concerned with whether or not it works. My brake work is generally related to making race car systems function the way they have to for road racing.
Part of the urge to upgrade brakes comes from people just wanting to do something neat to their cars, and 'neat' and 'need' often fail to coincide. If they want to do something, they tend to find excuses for why it would be a good idea, often making unsupported statements about how bad a system was before they 'upgraded'.
The other factor is that they rarely compare apples with apples. They usually start out with a braking system that is half thrashed with sticking pistons, in the case of swinging calipers like the Fiero, calipers that don't want to swing etc. Then they stick on some totally unecessary 'upgrades' and say look at the improvement - that proves that the stock system was crap. Of course it does no such thing, all it proves is that their system, in the advanced state of decrepitude it was in was no comparison to the brand new parts they stuck on. Heck, I've even seen people convert from things that ARE working properly and even when there is no detectable improvement, they manage to find some because - hey - they spent money on the upgrade and if there were no improvements, what sort of dope would that make them?
Some of you guys have the right idea, some have some erroneous ideas. Like fitting larger diameter wheels means you need bigger rotors. The only way going to larger diameter wheels makes an iota of difference is if you change the rolling radius of the rubber on them. If (as is most often the case) you just go to bigger wheesl with lower sidewall lower profile tires, your rolling radius may well be approximately the same as you started with and it will not affect braking.
Even if you did go to a larger over all tire diameter, that wouldn't mandate a change in rotor size unless the existing brakes were inadequate in the first place.
So were 1987 and prior Fiero brakes inadequate? No, they weren't. In new condition they would lock up the wheels just fine, thank you. If yours won't today, you better take a good look at them.
That system isn't perfect. I found that I didn't like the feel as well as I did on the 88 and the modulation could have been better, but it was pretty good. The way to stop in a shorter distance isn't to fit progressively better brakes, it is to improve the existing system first and only if you exceed the performance envelope of that system, to go for something else. In the case of the Fiero, you'll find that tire technology has advanced considerably and that simply fitting the cars with modern compounds improves braking quiet a bit.
If you drive the cars hard, it might be possible to fade the original pad materials. Remember that these cars were built as economy cars and that pad material choice when new had to be cheap for the manufacturer as well as hitting a balance in terms of performance so the little old ladies could stop without needing to use both feet. If you are a, shall we say, spirited driver, switching to a better pad material like Green Stuff is the way to go.
Do the discs shed heat fast enough? The answer is for the most part yes, even on the 87 and prior system. Obviously for real competition use, or I suppose if you drive down a mountain to get to work, the ventilated rotors will shed heat faster.
If you want fancy nice looking brake systems for show and tell purposes, by all means go for it. Different strokes. But you don't have to trash the stock system to validate your choices.
And for the record, I am against anything that removes the handbrake from these cars, which the common Grand Am swap does. While I doubt that it will ever be likely to cause accidents, other than perhaps having the car roll away when it gets bumped out of gear, rest assured that a plaintiff's lawyer WILL use the fact that your car has been modified in a way that MIGHT result in a loss of safety.
BTW, this discussion isn't unique to Fieros, it comes up on all sorts of car groups I am on. The guys that say the stock system on some old MGs I play around with is unsafe and needs upgrading are at a loss to explain how the stock system copes with stopping from 130 MPH a couple of times a lap on the SCCA cars....
Finally, forget about drilled discs. I see all the guys out there with a drill press offering crossdrilled rotors. They can lead to heat cracking and failure. Not worth it. Grooved, OTOH, offers some possible advantages without any downside.
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10:57 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by BillS: ..... Some of you guys have the right idea, some have some erroneous ideas. Like fitting larger diameter wheels means you need bigger rotors. The only way going to larger diameter wheels makes an iota of difference is if you change the rolling radius of the rubber on them. If (as is most often the case) you just go to bigger wheesl with lower sidewall lower profile tires, your rolling radius may well be approximately the same as you started with and it will not affect braking.
Even if you did go to a larger over all tire diameter, that wouldn't mandate a change in rotor size unless the existing brakes were inadequate in the first place. .....
I guess this is where someone really needs to be specific. some folk saying "larger wheel" does in fact imply the whole thing. rim/tire. larger rolling radius. whatever. and, when you increase the circumferance, and leave the rotor size the same - you increase the load upon that rotor. it may not be so dramatic with the small 1-2" changes we may make - but - move up to 4x4's - and you see it deadly quick. when them silly boys throw them big old balloons on their trucks, and DONT change the brakes - the are in for a hellascary ride. because they dont stop. them little disks just cannot put out the leverage for a controlled stop. it is the EXACT same force as putting larger tires causes less torque to reach the ground thru the drivetrain. and changes in the speedo. it is exactly a gearing change.
and, next is control. there is a difference in braking control. you get more control out of a larger rotor. no matter what. easy example is a old LP record player. start it spinning. near the outter edge, drag your finger to slow it down as slow as possible, without stopping it. now, try the same thing near the center on the record. you will see very quickly how hard it is to do near the center, and how easy it is at the outter edge.
and - lasty - the down side: unsprung weight. large heavy rotors negatively affect the suspension response, due to the larger spinning iron disk. it is very gyroscopic in nature. fighting any changes in direction and orientation.
The other factor is that they rarely compare apples with apples. They usually start out with a braking system that is half thrashed with sticking pistons, in the case of swinging calipers like the Fiero, calipers that don't want to swing etc. Then they stick on some totally unecessary 'upgrades' and say look at the improvement - that proves that the stock system was crap. Of course it does no such thing, all it proves is that their system, in the advanced state of decrepitude it was in was no comparison to the brand new parts they stuck on. Heck, I've even seen people convert from things that ARE working properly and even when there is no detectable improvement, they manage to find some because - hey - they spent money on the upgrade and if there were no improvements, what sort of dope would that make them?
My calipers, rotors, and pads were all brand new not long before doing the swap to the rear. I found a noticeable improvement after replacing the rear calipers. Before it felt like the car just wouldn't stop. You could push the pedal down and it would feel like you were going to brake the pedal and then put your foot through the floor. Now I actually feel comfortable, because I dont' have to apply a lot of pressure to feel the brakes grab.
And before you say that I had air in the lines...I don't believe I did. I bled them a few times thinking that could be the problem and every time the car broke the same.
You can't say that the pre88 fieros had adequate brakes. The biggest complaints about pre 88 fieros were braking and suspension.
So were 1987 and prior Fiero brakes inadequate? No, they weren't. In new condition they would lock up the wheels just fine, thank you. If yours won't today, you better take a good look at them.
In the case of the Fiero, you'll find that tire technology has advanced considerably and that simply fitting the cars with modern compounds improves braking quiet a bit.
Agree however you have to remember the original equipment tires were just not as good as some of the new rubber we run, and you could lock them up and not stop any quicker. Brakes locking up a tire with less traction won't necessarily lock up a tire with good traction.
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Do the discs shed heat fast enough? The answer is for the most part yes, even on the 87 and prior system. Obviously for real competition use, or I suppose if you drive down a mountain to get to work, the ventilated rotors will shed heat faster.
Try stop and go traffic in the summer. I'll take the vented rotors with better pads any day. With the GA setup and Blazer booster, the stopping is improved radically over a fresh OE brake setup.
quote
And for the record, I am against anything that removes the handbrake from these cars, which the common Grand Am swap does.
Agreed. That is the reason DPWood is making conversion brackets to use the Caddy rear calipers so you have an ebrake.
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Finally, forget about drilled discs. I see all the guys out there with a drill press offering crossdrilled rotors. They can lead to heat cracking and failure. Not worth it. Grooved, OTOH, offers some possible advantages without any downside.
i have the cross-drilled/slotted rotors and carbomet pads from the fiero store as well as all new calipers all around from checker auto. they've been on for about two months or so now... i've never owned a car that stopped as well as my fiero. takes me from 80-0 in a heartbeat.
now, has anyone else weighed down their front trunk so that the primary brakes have more traction? or am i just silly?
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09:14 PM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
I used the fieroaddiction.com 12" kit. They use 12" vette rotors and 88 fiero calipers all around. The kit works for 84-87 or 88 fieros. I love the increase stopping power and they look MUCH better then stock. No balance problems at all since calipers and master are stock. I also was able to keep my stock e-brake. It was the only brake upgrade, that I could find, that would work with my 88 cradle swap in my 85GT. Best of all I had the whole thing installed in 30 min. I am very happy with my choice.
now, has anyone else weighed down their front trunk so that the primary brakes have more traction? or am i just silly?
eh, not sure about that idea. Added weight to the front is also added inertia, which is more force that you need to stop. Best way to add traction is tires. Also, once you get the weight shifted to the front it should be much harder for your front tires to lock up and lose traction.
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09:33 AM
PerKr Member
Posts: 641 From: Mariestad, Sweden Registered: Nov 2006
I'm starting to warm up to the "GM Metric" type of caliper. I love how the bracket design is so simple. But what cars use this caliper design? I think 3rd gen F-bodies were mentioned, but other than that? Is it still in use? Any aluminum versions available (I just hate calipers with rust on them)?
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02:35 PM
85duke Member
Posts: 536 From: Sacramento,CA Registered: Aug 2008
My calipers, rotors, and pads were all brand new not long before doing the swap to the rear. I found a noticeable improvement after replacing the rear calipers. Before it felt like the car just wouldn't stop. You could push the pedal down and it would feel like you were going to brake the pedal and then put your foot through the floor. Now I actually feel comfortable, because I dont' have to apply a lot of pressure to feel the brakes grab.
And before you say that I had air in the lines...I don't believe I did. I bled them a few times thinking that could be the problem and every time the car broke the same.
You can't say that the pre88 fieros had adequate brakes. The biggest complaints about pre 88 fieros were braking and suspension.
I feel that my brakes are more than adequate. I completly rebuilt the brakes on my 85 and i can lock them up easily if i wanted to. But i also feel that they have a good amount of control. I have had to panic stop many times because of the wonderful drivers in the sacramento area and never felt that i wasn't in control. Even with a full lockup at about 45 mph all i had to do was let off and slowly depress the pedal to regain traction.
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08:21 PM
PFF
System Bot
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3326 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
So were 1987 and prior Fiero brakes inadequate? No, they weren't. In new condition they would lock up the wheels just fine, thank you. If yours won't today, you better take a good look at them.
True, they weren't inadequate for the Fiero's 135 bhp V6 or 92 hp 4-banger... But a lot of people on this forum have engine swaps that make a lot more power than that, and many that add weight to the car (so stopping from a fixed speed puts even more energy into the rotors).
More engine power means more energy to dissipate into the brakes to slow down. Simple physics. 135 hp (100kW) for 6 seconds is 600kJ of energy. Time to brake... 600kJ into the brakes. They get hot. Now let's do an engine swap.. 220 hp (164kW) for 6 seconds makes 984kJ. The little brakes on the Fiero weren't designed to absorb that amount of energy; they get hot, the friction coefficient goes way down, and they suddenly don't brake so well.
When I was upgrading the brakes on my old 3.4 DOHC Fiero, I went from stock 88 brakes to stock 88 brakes... with Porterfield R4-S pads. That made a world of difference in the brake feel. It actually felt more like a new car. However... the brakes were still getting hot enough to fade those high-temp pads when driving hard or just doing a single stop from a high speed that wasn't normally easy to reach with a stock engine. So I went with the 12" rotor upgrade.. no other changes. This was totally adequate; never have faded them.
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Agree however you have to remember the original equipment tires were just not as good as some of the new rubber we run, and you could lock them up and not stop any quicker. Brakes locking up a tire with less traction won't necessarily lock up a tire with good traction.
Good point. Tire technology has changed a LOT in 20 years. For the same size tire you can get a lot more traction..
-Steven
[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 10-31-2008).]
eh, not sure about that idea. Added weight to the front is also added inertia, which is more force that you need to stop. Best way to add traction is tires. Also, once you get the weight shifted to the front it should be much harder for your front tires to lock up and lose traction.
but i havent skidded once since i put the weight in there... without it i was sliding all over the place.. on dry land...
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01:08 AM
Primaris Member
Posts: 550 From: Oak Grove, KY USA Registered: Aug 2001
Your thinking is off a bit here. If my 40 HP Fiero is going 65mph and your 1000 HP Fiero is going 65mph then the force needed to stop them is the same. (all things being equal besides HP)
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Originally posted by Dash:
but i havent skidded once since i put the weight in there... without it i was sliding all over the place.. on dry land...
Something is very wrong. There is no reason for a car to be sliding all over the place during braking (any car).
Your thinking is off a bit here. If my 40 HP Fiero is going 65mph and your 1000 HP Fiero is going 65mph then the force needed to stop them is the same. (all things being equal besides HP)
I never said that stopping from a fixed speed takes a different amount of energy depending on how much power you make. When "your" 40 HP Fiero accelerates from a stop flat out for 6 seconds you're going somthing like 30 mph. When "my" 1000 HP Fiero accelerates from a stop flat out for 6 seconds I'm going maybe 120 mph.
More accurately, I should have used distance instead of seconds. The point I'm making is that your 40 HP Fiero gets up to 30 mph before needing to brake for the next turn. My 1000 HP Fiero gets up to 100 mph before needing to brake before the next turn. Assuming our cars are otherwise the same (i.e. I have to take the turn at the same speed as you), my rotors are going to be melted into slag after one or two turns, and yours will never fade.
Assuming both cars can reach the speed limit (if any) before the next turn, then it doesn't matter. Most stock Fieros can't do that in the canyons around here, and once they can, they need better brakes.
[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 11-02-2008).]
I never said that stopping from a fixed speed takes a different amount of energy depending on how much power you make. When "your" 40 HP Fiero accelerates from a stop flat out for 6 seconds you're going somthing like 30 mph. When "my" 1000 HP Fiero accelerates from a stop flat out for 6 seconds I'm going maybe 120 mph.
You are saying that if you drive at highly illegal speeds you will be harder on the brakes. Yeah, I kind of think that went without saying.
PS - they have this place for people that do this regularly - it is called 'jail'......where braking distance is irrelevant.
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04:24 PM
Nov 3rd, 2008
Primaris Member
Posts: 550 From: Oak Grove, KY USA Registered: Aug 2001
Originally posted by Steven Snyder: ...More accurately, I should have used distance instead of seconds. The point I'm making is that your 40 HP Fiero gets up to 30 mph before needing to brake for the next turn. My 1000 HP Fiero gets up to 100 mph before needing to brake before the next turn. Assuming our cars are otherwise the same (i.e. I have to take the turn at the same speed as you), my rotors are going to be melted into slag after one or two turns, and yours will never fade.
Assuming both cars can reach the speed limit (if any) before the next turn, then it doesn't matter. Most stock Fieros can't do that in the canyons around here, and once they can, they need better brakes.
This is closer. Lets assume the brake pads are correct for the intended use. What is needed is greater heat capacity. This can be accomplished by having more rotor mass OR/and by improving the air flow to the brakes. So after having a correctly working brake system, with the correct pads for the application, added air flow via brake ducts to the rotors, then up sizing the rotors is necessary.
P.S. I don't want to discuss it in this thread, but Porterfield R4S pads are not a high temp application pad. If you want to hear about my experience with these pads hit me up via PM.
Let's try to keep this topic about adding something that is, let's us, more modern.
------------------ 1986 GT Fiero Owner & Enthusiast For Fiero updates, visit my site and don't forget to click on the ads! http://educatorstop15.we.bs/fieropage.htm
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09:41 PM
Nov 4th, 2008
Unsafe At Any Speed Member
Posts: 2299 From: Cheyenne, WY Registered: Feb 2003
about adding weight to the front i knew a guy (he sold the car) with a 3.4 turbo who had and i quote " a lead plate" in the front to stop the wheelies now i dont knw if that actualy happens in high horse fieros but... scary stuff if it does and yes bigger engine= more juels of energy but, a 2500-2800 car at 100 will have the same mass with 1000 horse as it will with 1 assuming the weight remains the same because you arnt aplying both brakes and throttle at the same time (one would hope)
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12:42 AM
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3326 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
Originally posted by BillS: You are saying that if you drive at highly illegal speeds you will be harder on the brakes. Yeah, I kind of think that went without saying.
PS - they have this place for people that do this regularly - it is called 'jail'......where braking distance is irrelevant.
I'm not sure where you live (perhaps outside of the US, or the civilized world in general?) but out here in California we have things called "race tracks". Maybe you've heard of them? If not, try googling it. www.google.com in case you haven't heard of that either. These race tracks are places where you can drive at "highly illegal speeds" which are "harder on the brakes". A typical track day costs $100. They are not prohibitively expensive, and are tons of fun. You should try it some time!
Originally posted by Primaris: What is needed is greater heat capacity. This can be accomplished by having more rotor mass OR/and by improving the air flow to the brakes.
Air flow does not increase heat capacity, it only improves cooling. Increasing rotor mass is the ONLY way to increase the heat capacity. In regards to cooling.. No amount of airflow is going to help stock 84-87 Fiero rotors brake from any reasonable speed that can be reached on a road course with anything but a stock or mildly modified 2.8. Slowing down from a high speed with (adequate traction) creates an impulse of energy; the rate of cooling in general doesn't have so much of an effect in the extremely short time it takes to slow down and put a LOT of energy into the rotors.
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P.S. I don't want to discuss it in this thread, but Porterfield R4S pads are not a high temp application pad. If you want to hear about my experience with these pads hit me up via PM.
You are correct, I should have just said higher temp than stock replacement pads. I have faded my R4S pads easily on stock rotors, so I know they aren't too much better than stock at high temp, but they were an improvement.
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01:15 AM
Nov 6th, 2008
Primaris Member
Posts: 550 From: Oak Grove, KY USA Registered: Aug 2001
Has anyone done the Z06 Corvette 13" setup on there car ? does anyone make a kit to do it ? I want to use a 13" setup on my car but I am not sure about the Willwood setups on the street and from what I know the spots don't work well eather. Can someone chime in on this ? also how would you get an e-brake with this setup ?
