quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: -ryan Ryan: Just wondering what your take on the 12583826 was. Having worked with it I was wondering if you found it harder to reprogram. On mine the VATS was successfully disabled but I've heard stories of guys unable to disable the VATS on it.

Who disabled the VATS? What tuning software did they use? How did they do it?

As of this moment, I have not been able to find any tuning software vendors that have software that can disable vats in 2002-up 3800 PCMs. I have heard of people reprogramming an 02+ PCM with older software (from an earlier PCM that already had VATS disabled from the factory) in order to accomplish this. But this can create problems within the PCM and its operation because of hardware incompatibilities; and it is something I prefer not to do.

quote With some tips from a couple of guys here, including yourself, and the LS1 MAF table imported (your input also) I've found this PCM easy to work with. The program seems heavily MAF based like the LT1 system is.

Most all 3800 computers pretty much exclusively depend on the MAF sensor to determine fuel and spark delivery to the engine. In these systems the MAP sensor is primarily used as a back-up/fail safe should the MAF fail. The reason why GM uses MAF sensors is because they measure the amount of air the engine is consuming directly; instead of having to rely on a calculation (speed/density) which is what is done in MAP sensor-based systems. MAF is much more accurate than Speed Density; of course only if the MAF sensor is working properly. The reason why guys running race setups dump the MAF sensor in favor of speed density is mainly because they have outflowed the measuring capability of their MAF sensor. However these days you can now buy MAF sensors in pretty much any size you need for almost any power level. Only problem is the bigger the MAF, the less resolution you get from it due to the restrictions of what they have to work with in the PCM hardware and software.

quote Not to beat the A/C request signal issue to death but go into ALLdata and look in the HVAC section for a 2003 Grand Prix. The GTP A/C system uses an ambient air temperature sensor #12054621. There is also a cabin temperature sensor # 10272757 which appears to output the same. These sensors puts out a 5V signal and if I am not mistaken are part of the A/C control module.This would seem to indicate that the GTP A/C control is under some kind of varying inputs from the cabin. Yes the +12V request signal will work. I've tried it and it does turn the system on full blast as you say. However, I was looking to hook up the the regulation and control of cabin temperature as the grand prix has it That included these two sensors taking part in a way yet undetermined. On the Fiero, A/C control is crude- you just mix in some hot air to get the right temperature. On the GTP, sensors via the PCM provide automatic control and it may be doing it on the request pipeline. Sorry to stray off topic but its a feature that I'm trying to solve, understand how it works and once I do I will hook it up.

GM is notorious for using 5v reference based circuits for sensor inputs. Throttle position, MAP, A/C head pressure, fuel tank pressure, coolant temp, intake air temp, etc etc all work off a 5v reference base circuit. The HVAC controller works the same way. But that does not mean the HVAC controller outputs a 5v signal to the PCM to signal "A/C request". I bet if you got into an 03 Grand Prix and measured the voltage on the A/C request wire going to the PCM it would read "12v" + voltage when A/C is requested.

dennis, the 12580151 osid is not supported in DHP, and I cant open it... What year and model is it linked to?

I would like to poke around with different osid's in the 03 area for "new transmission" compatability... as I have a few of these showing up around my shop.

quote Who disabled the VATS? What tuning software did they use? How did they do it? As of this moment, I have not been able to find any tuning software vendors that have software that can disable vats in 2002-up 3800 PCMs. I have heard of people reprogramming an 02+ PCM with older software (from an earlier PCM that already had VATS disabled from the factory) in order to accomplish this. But this can create problems within the PCM and its operation because of hardware incompatibilities; and it is something I prefer not to do.

I believe that the issue in disabling the VATS is primarily with the 04-07 ETC based PCM's. Those PCMs are so tricky in that so many functions tie together and rely on each others signal level ex: traction control. I know of another 3800SC Fiero owner who runs the 12583826 PCM that he purchased from Loyde and the VATS in his program is not an issue.
We use HP Tuners VCM suite fexclusively for our tuning tasks..
UPDATE: Here is the info on disabling VATS: Uncheck DTC's P1626, P1629, P1630 & P1631 so no error is reported. Then go into the system area and set the VATS to PWM. This should work to disable the VATS on the 12583826 PCM that is used on the series II engines from 2003 to 2005. I can't say that it will work on thr later ETC 04-07 PCMs but it worked on mine.


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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE WILDCAT"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 02-17-2009).]

So you mean hardware id eh? What OSID are you using dennis?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: So you mean hardware id eh? What OSID are you using dennis?

Here ya go:
VCM 3CG7867303
VCM OSID 12583381 used on 2003-2005 series II engines GTP in 03 and Impala/Bonneville up to 2005.
DHP probably doesn't support it. You might want to save up some bucks and try HP Tuners VCM suite as its getting better every day. They even offer Ecotec PCM support.


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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE WILDCAT"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 02-17-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: UPDATE: Here is the info on disabling VATS: Uncheck DTC's P1626, P1629, P1630 & P1631 so no error is reported. Then go into the system area and set the VATS to PWM. This should work to disable the VATS on the 12583826 PCM that is used on the series II engines from 2003 to 2005. I can't say that it will work on thr later ETC 04-07 PCMs but it worked on mine.

This DOES NOT WORK. I have tested it myself. HP Tuners says to do the same thing on their support forum. When you try to disable VATS in this way it puts the PCM into what I can only describe as a "feedback loop" where the engine may be allowed to start and run, but it runs/misfires badly (random cylinders) and never goes into closed loop. Every 2002-up V6 car PCM I have seen has VATS enabled from the factory. And every time I have tried disabling VATS the way you (and HP Tuners) describes, it has resulted in the random cylinder misfire issue or hasn't run at all. The only way we have been able to work around it is to install a VATS bypass module -or- put earlier programming on the PCM.

quote I believe that the issue in disabling the VATS is primarily with the 04-07 ETC based PCM's. Those PCMs are so tricky in that so many functions tie together and rely on each others signal level ex: traction control.

No it's not. This issue exists in ALL 1998-up PCMs where VATS was enabled from the factory. From 98 Camaro/Firebird 3800s to 99 Alero 3400s to 2003 Bonnevilles. ALL of these applications have VATS that cannot be disabled by simply changing the "VATS Type" switch in the programming and disabling the associated trouble codes for it. I even worked directly with HP Tuners on a 99 Alero 3400 project and we were never able to get the engine to run without a VATS signal no matter what we tried. Later I worked with a friend on a swap using a 98 Camaro 3800 PCM and when we tried disabling the VATS as you and HP Tuners said, but it made the engine misifre and run poorly. It ran perfect once the VATS settings were put back to stock and we supplied the PCM with a PassKey 2 fuel enable signal from a bypass module. There is no easy solution here. I have been told by people who write tuning software that what is needed is something more; like a patch to the operating system software -- very similar to what HP Tuners already has for the LS4 stuff (that works).

quote I know of another 3800SC Fiero owner who runs the 12583826 PCM that he purchased from Loyde and the VATS in his program is not an issue. We use HP Tuners VCM suite fexclusively for our tuning tasks..

I don't know what Loyde does. The way I have seen other tuners work around the VATS issue is by putting earlier year programming that already has VATS disabled onto a later PCM. The problem with doing this is the hardware in some newer PCMs is not 100% compatible with the older operating systems. And this can create problems with certain controlled outputs. I'm sure if you worked with the tuning long enough you could work around this issue, but this is something I have never needed to do yet.

I will say this. I'm not a software program writer, and I'm not into illegally hacking somebody else's tuning software to make it do what I need. So I have to rely on the writers/vendors of the existing tuning software that is available to come up with the solutions I need. And so far nobody has for this VATS issue concerning V6 and 4cyl cars I am talking about. Perhaps some tuner somewhere has figured it out; but if they have, they are not sharing what they had to do in order to accomplish this. All I hope is they didn't have to use illegal means in order to do it.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 02-18-2009).]

legal and illegal is a line that is very very wide, and very very grey in the tuning world... In essence tuning at all is illegal, hacking vats out of a bin file is not anything worse than modding maf tables... stealing work from other people and modding it for our OSID's is immoral, but it might not be illegal by definition.

I still want to know what model/year dennis's bin file is linked to. I dont have that osid listen in my database. I do have a few 03/04 files I use... All of the times i used them were in w-body's with working vats modules.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 02-18-2009).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: legal and illegal is a line that is very very wide, and very very grey in the tuning world... In essence tuning at all is illegal, hacking vats out of a bin file is not anything worse than modding maf tables... stealing work from other people and modding it for our OSID's is immoral, but it might not be illegal by definition. I still want to know what model/year dennis's bin file is linked to. I dont have that osid listen in my database. I do have a few 03/04 files I use... All of the times i used them were in w-body's with working vats modules.

VIN 1G2WR52103F116498 OSID 12583381 VCM 3CG7867303 The VIN that shows up is for an 03 Grand Prix 3800SC. I believe that the OSID is correct for that year and model. Engine starts and runs fine , no miss, and goes into closed loop operation..

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE WILDCAT"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

DHP supports the version before yours... it appears there is no significant change between the one I support and yours...

12583381 N/A Part number change only, same as prior calibration <<<<<yours
12580151 N/A New calibration to address the P0502 diagnostic code <<<<mine
12574552 N/A Control module calibration

If you guys are lucky I will get bored and load the 03 file onto my fiero (and I wont drive it) and see how it runs out of gear at least.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 02-18-2009).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: legal and illegal is a line that is very very wide, and very very grey in the tuning world...

Not as wide nor as grey as you may think when it is clearly spelled out in the EULA of the tuning software you are using.

My point was sorta like, it will never hold up in court... its like trying to sue the guy you sold drugs to because they stole them....

On the UVscanning forums we are talking about piggy backing a tech2 to develop BCM communication for the powertuner... if we were to sell this program after... gm should be able to go after us... but we couldnt morally expect that we can go after someone that piggybacked our program...

First off, let me clear up some confusion you may have about what I am talking about. I'm not talking about legality of altering the software in the GM PCM. That is a seperate issue that really needs its own thread to discuss. What I am speaking about is the legality of making changes to the tuning software itself that you use to tune GM PCMs.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: My point was sorta like, it will never hold up in court... its like trying to sue the guy you sold drugs to because they stole them.... On the UVscanning forums we are talking about piggy backing a tech2 to develop BCM communication for the powertuner... if we were to sell this program after... gm should be able to go after us... but we couldnt morally expect that we can go after someone that piggybacked our program...

Not the same. GM doesn't make you "sign" a licensing agreement to drive or work on one of their cars. When you buy tuning software, you have to agree to the terms in the licensing agreement and you are bound by the terms in that agreement. If in the agreement it says you cannot modify or alter the tuning software program, and you do; then you are breaking the license agreement (and could be breaking the law).

Now lets say the writers of DHP (the people who licensed you to use their software) gave you permission to hack/alter their tuning software. Then, legally, you would be able to go in and alter that software program to do something other than what it was originally written for (IE: make it work with BCMs). But most tuning software comes with strict licensing terms that prohibits the end user from hacking or altering the tuning software program.

Understand what I am talking about here?

Let me put it another way. Lets say you buy a single PC license version of Windows Vista. Lets say that in the EULA there are terms that prohibit you from modifying the VISTA software in any way. But lets say you go into the Vista software and hack/modify it so you can use it on more than one computer (even if both computers belonged to and were only used by you). This would be in violation of the EULA and also could be against the law. And have no illusions, this kind of stuff can stand up in court and you can get in serious trouble for it.

AFAIK, all tuning software sold today is sold under a license. You don't actually own the tuning software, you own a license to use it. Same thing goes for most all the other software that is probably on your PC.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 02-19-2009).]

I think we definitely need this in TCZ. Excellent info here.
-Paul

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Journal of a concept: http://southeastfieros.com >>> Build Thread >>> Parts thread (for project funding)

Well... we are making our own software for the BCM, it just works on PT hardware, which you can buy with or without a PT sticker on it from AVT.

DHP is a particularly strange program as it uses an unsecure database to hold all of its specific information such as supported bins, table mapping, ect, and could be easily updated.... Bin files are also un encypted so we can mod them with external programs, and load them into DHP to load onto the PCM. It would be really really easy to legally mod DHP, because you could use all external programs.

My PCM service number is 09361735. If I were to put the harness that came with this computer and this computer into my fiero, would the car be able to run without any rewriting to the base program or does it have to be changed befor I can even start the car? This is from a 99 Regal 3800 SC II. Is the DHP software able to rewrite the PCM to the GTP L67 software needed for this computer?

quote Originally posted by Flyboy81: My PCM service number is 09361735. If I were to put the harness that came with this computer and this computer into my fiero, would the car be able to run without any rewriting to the base program or does it have to be changed befor I can even start the car? This is from a 99 Regal 3800 SC II. Is the DHP software able to rewrite the PCM to the GTP L67 software needed for this computer?

All Regal programming has VATS enabled from the factory. So if you were to install this PCM with stock Regal programming on it into your Fiero, the engine would start, but would shut off due to the VATS issue.

If you were able to program the PCM with 1998-01 Grand Prix programming (every one of which I have found has VATS disabled from the factory), the engine would start and run fine. But you would need to disable certain trouble codes for devices you didn't install in the swap to prevent the check engine light from coming on. If you have the DHP Powertuner software that is "open" for most 3800 applications, you should be able to reprogram the Regal PCM with Grand Prix programming, no problem. Make sure you do a full write and not a partial write when you do this so the Grand Prix OS gets written to the PCM along with the calibration.