quote Originally posted by Will: I think the 282's horrible, and all I had was a measly 279 cubes... A quarter second is huge if you've put a lot of effort into your car and want to get the most out of it. Why do you think that race teams pay $10-15K for replacement gearsets for stock transmissions? Changing gear ratios is tuning just as much as changing fuel curves.

Why do you think that everyones car has to ba an all out race car?

Can't people just get something they like & just drive it?

I don't get it.

You can go ahead & spend $10K on some replacement gearset. Or wait another 20 years for GM to make another trans that suits your requirements.

In the mean time we'll do the best we can with what we've got.

Or are you just arguing because you have nothing else to do?

Geeze

Archie

who said Will or I are arguing anything? You have your ideas, Will and I have ours and I guess its wrong for us to say these things if you dont like it?

these threads are the best

I got an F40 for my Short Star but have not got around to installing it yet.
My question is If I use this tranny and raise the red line to 7,000-7,200 rpm and have a wide power band, the tranny should be a good match right? If I shift from first to second at 7,200 the rpm will drop to what rpm? This engine will still pull hard at 2500rpm, but would like the drop to NOT go below 3,500rpm because this is were the power band really kicks in.

Thanks.

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quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I got an F40 for my Short Star but have not got around to installing it yet. My question is If I use this tranny and raise the red line to 7,000-7,200 rpm and have a wide power band, the tranny should be a good match right? If I shift from first to second at 7,200 the rpm will drop to what rpm? This engine will still pull hard at 2500rpm, but would like the drop to NOT go below 3,500rpm because this is were the power band really kicks in. Thanks.

I haven't calculated it but I believe it's a safe bet that you will not drop below 3500 rpm in a 1st to second shift at 7000 rpm, considering an average normal 1-2 shift takes place at about 2500 rpm you would be in the negative if the normal 1-2 shift caused an rpm drop that high making in town driving very difficult, noisy and fuel inefficient. Any gear causing the engine to rev below ~1500 rpm in the city might make abrupt accelerating on the average engine a little stressful if a manual trans is involved. Considering how heavy the EPA is on automakers it is very likely the fuel efficiency requirement is responsible for the less than stellar gear ratios.

High revving engines burn more gas and since we tend to spend most of our time driving in town this is likely where the efficiency standards are being met with lugging gear ratios. Remember the old gas guzzler tax. GM makes more money avoiding tax penalties by combining power with efficiency than they do with selling it in a format more suitable to the performance oriented.
Ferrari's and Porche's at about the same performance level as certain American muscle cars tend to make more or as much power using smaller engines but the fuel economy usually stinks by comparison from what I've observed. High revving and better gears probably.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-23-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: Why do you think that everyones car has to ba an all out race car? Can't people just get something they like & just drive it? I don't get it. You can go ahead & spend $10K on some replacement gearset. Or wait another 20 years for GM to make another trans that suits your requirements. In the mean time we'll do the best we can with what we've got. Or are you just arguing because you have nothing else to do? Geeze Archie

I said: "...if you've put a lot of effort into your car and want to get the most out of it."
What makes you think this refers to "everyone", or even to you?

quote Originally posted by Archie: Why do you think that everyones car has to ba an all out race car? Can't people just get something they like & just drive it? I don't get it. Archie

very true Archie thats all im after. Didnt mean for the thread to turn out like this. o well i kinda figured out my question anyways, F40 sounds good to me so thats that...

quote Originally posted by Will: I said: "...if you've put a lot of effort into your car and want to get the most out of it." What makes you think this refers to "everyone", or even to you?

quote Originally posted by Will: 98% of Fiero owners don't swap to 6 speeds.

Well according to you 98% of Fiero owners don't swap to 6 speeds. So by your logic only 2% are swapping to 6 speeds. Maybe 1 tenth of those can afford a $10000.00 custom gear set.

So what maybe 2 out of a 1000 really care about a RPM drop between 1st & 2nd.

If it's really a big concern for you then maybe you should consider a heavier Flywheel. If there is actually a .25s additional gear change interval then the inertia of a little heavier F/W will greatly reduce the RPM drop between gears. Even if you shift as slow as grandpa driving his farm truck.

No one advocated that the G6 6 speed is best of everything. However, considering that the stock Fiero transmisions are pushing 25 years old, the 6 speed is the best choice we have right now for people who want to drive a stick & want a modern transmission.

Just food for thought.

Archie

The F23 transmission, is a modern transmission, that does not require a special jackshaft mounting system, custom axles, or extensively modified shift bracket. It is also available in a few different bell housings.

Saying that a f40 is the only "new and modern" transmission, is also a bit of a stretch.

quote Originally posted by hammer18: very true Archie thats all im after. Didnt mean for the thread to turn out like this. o well i kinda figured out my question anyways, F40 sounds good to me so thats that...

Exactly.

20 years ago, I started putting V-8's into Fieros because I wanted Muscle Car power to weight ratio & Sports Car handling in a car that I could drive everyday. I couldn't afford a new 'Vette & in those days Corvettes weren't that much of a performance car anyway.

I've never been able to afford to have a race car sitting in the garage for the few times a year where I had time & desire to go racing.

I wanted a fast street car that I could drive everyday & still hold my own with 99% of the cars that might challenge me at the next traffic light.

When I designed my kit, I designed it for people just like me, who wanted above average street performance in a hot little car for the price of a new Ford Escort. In those days I outran a lot of Corvettes, Mustangs & Camaros & I enjoyed every minute of it.

Back in those days, the Fieros were relatively new & being a person who loved shifting my own gears, my cars had to be stick shift cars. Almost every car I built used a stock Fiero transmission. Most of my own V-8 Fieros started out as 4 cyl. Fiero because they were a lot cheaper to buy & thus most of my cars used the Isuzu 5 speeds. I knew then as I know now that those transmissions were not rated for the power of a V-8 but everyone back them knew that GM always rated their transmissions at about half of what they really could handle. Add in a little reasonable driving on top of that & I never broke an Isuzu. In those days before you reached the breaking point of the transmission, you'd be putting the tires up in smpke. It wasn't until 1998 that I finally built myself a car that had a Getrag in it. U until then all my cars were Isuzus or 4 speeds & they held up fine.

Things are a bit different now. The stock Fiero transmissions are 20+ years old with more total miles on them than they were ever designed to get. Many Fieros you find nowdays are pretty much worn out from lack of maintanence & abuse. I'd speculate that a lot of the Fieros you'd find for sale these days have had 8 to 12 years of abuse at the hands of teenagers who have beat the heck out of them for a couple of years then have sold them off to the next teenager for some more years of abuse. So most Fieros you'd find for sale these days are pretty much worn out from years of neglect & abuse.

As of a couple of years ago a person looking to upgrade an old Fiero & save it from the crusher, could pretty much replace every moving part on the car with either OEM or aftermarket upgrades. You could put new suspension, new cradle bushings, Replacement engines, V-8 engines, New cooling systems etc. But as of a couple of years ago, you couldn't put a new stick shift transmission in it.

That's when I decided that for the Fiero platform to live on for another 10 to 20 years, we needed an option to be able to install a new stick shift transmission. The only thing missing from being able to rebuild the Fiero into the equivalent of a new car was a new transmission.

I've been building some very nice cars for some very nice people for years & I was getting to the point where I was tired of telling them that no matter how much they spent on their car & how many new parts they chose, they still had to settle for a 20 year old used transmission.

That's when I set about working to find a new stick shift transmission for the Fiero.

As luck would have it, one member of PFF was in a position at GM that he was able to provide me with pre-production information on the G6 6 speed & I went to work with that information. I was able to find a wrecked 05 G6 4 door car that GM was using as a test bed for the 06 6 speed G6 & I bought the driveline out of it. I wnet to work on it & was able to install it into a V-8 Fiero with an LS1 & complete it a few weeks before you could buy a new 06 G6 in the showroom with a 6 speed.

Yes the kit is a bit expensive & I'm always looking for ways to bring the cost down. I didn't figure on selling a bunch of the 6 speed kits until the production G6 6 speeds started showing up in the boneyards. Initally we build about 5 6 speed Fieros where we had to bite the bullet & buy the transmissions over the counter for the swaps we did. Those transmissions cost almost $2000.00 at that time. Then GM in it's infinate wisdom to find a way to declare bankruptcy yet this decade, changed a few of the gear ratios slightly for the 07 G6's. All of a sudden, all of the 06 6 speeds GM had in it production pipeline were surplus & started showing up on EBay for a lot less than we were paying for them from the GM Dealer. Now you can buy one on EBay for ~$400.00 instead of the $2000 we had been paying for them. Right now, when you consider the price of buying a 20 year old Fiero Getrag & having someone completely rebuild it, the total price of doing a 6 speed isn't all that bad. And with the 6 speed you have an all new transmission & not a 20 year old rebuilt Getrag with a 20 year old case & a 20 year old gearset in that case.

So all in all I think a 6 speed is a viable option for a lot more than 2% of Fiero owners that Will says might want it.

Thanks

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: If it's really a big concern for you then maybe you should consider a heavier Flywheel. If there is actually a .25s additional gear change interval then the inertia of a little heavier F/W will greatly reduce the RPM drop between gears.

I'm going to assume that's a poor attempt at sarcasm.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-23-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Will: I think the 282's horrible, and all I had was a measly 279 cubes... A quarter second is huge if you've put a lot of effort into your car and want to get the most out of it. Why do you think that race teams pay $10-15K for replacement gearsets for stock transmissions? Changing gear ratios is tuning just as much as changing fuel curves.

Props for that post Will, that is the most intelligent statement made in this thread

quote Originally posted by stickpony: tell you what.. i will calculate it with car test... its not a perfect program, but lets see what the real difference actually is..il post results in a few minutes

Using desktop drag and desktop dyno 2003 there is very little difference between the 282 and F40 transmissions. The time in gears is obviously different but the end results dont' change much. These are the results with using a stock northstar engine.

_________282_____________F40
time in gears
1st______2.25s___________2.077s
2nd_____2.664s___________3.031s
3rd_____5.57s_____________7.18s
0-60_____4.060____________4.085
0-100____10.002____________10.070
60'______1.858_____________1.849
1/4 et____12.358___________12.376
1/4 trap___108.3____________109.0

[This message has been edited by Zac88GT (edited 01-23-2008).]

"Car Test" program results, using a corvette LS1 in an '86 Fiero GT, slipping the clutch at 1400 rpm

Mated to G6 6 speed F40 tranny:

0-30 mph - 1.1 sec.
0-40 mph - 2.5 sec.
0-50 mph - 3.2 sec.
0-60 mph - 4.0 sec.
0-70 mph - 5.7 sec.
0-80 mph - 6.7 sec.
0-90 mph - 7.9 sec.
0-100 mph - 10.3 sec.

0-100 ft - 2.6 sec.
0-500 ft - 6.9 sec.
0-1320 ft(1/4 mile) - 12.6 sec. @ 113.3 mph

Top Speed 175.3 mph, in 131.68 sec., in 30409 ft.

Optimum shift points:
1st - 6000 rpm @ 32 mph
2nd - 5970 rpm @ 61 mph
3rd - 5850 rpm @ 93 mph
4th - 5660 rpm @ 126 mph
5th - 5650 rpm @ 158 mph


Mated to 4 speed "econo" MY8 tranny:

0-30 mph - 1.4 sec.
0-40 mph - 2.5 sec.
0-50 mph - 3.3 sec.
0-60 mph - 4.1 sec.
0-70 mph - 5.7 sec.
0-80 mph - 7.0 sec.
0-90 mph - 8.2 sec.
0-100 mph - 9.6 sec.

0-100 ft - 2.6 sec.
0-500 ft - 6.9 sec.
0-1320 ft(1/4 mile) - 12.6 sec. @ 110.0 mph

Top Speed 172.6 mph, in 90.61 sec., in 19700 ft.

Optimum shift points:
1st - 6000 rpm @ 37 mph
2nd - 6000 rpm @ 68 mph
3rd - 6000 rpm @ 108 mph


so, based on the above results, it takes the 4 speed "econo" tranny 0.3 seconds longer than the G6 6 speed to reach the 1-2 shift point at 6000 rpm. All above figures are based upon perfect shifting, but the reaction time of a human is the factor here. that extra 0.3 seconds can make the difference between a good 1-2 shift, and a bad 1-2 shift.

interestingly enough, the 4 speed gets to top speed alot quicker than the 6 speed, but naturally the top speed is higher with the 6 speed. with added HP, the 6 speed has a much greater potential for high end top speed, but in the 1/4 mile they are evenly matched, ASSUMING perfect shifting, which we know that 1-2 shift is the KEY to a great 1/4 mile run. I stand by my analysis that the 4 speed "econo" tranny gives you better launches than the G6 6 speed, because of that 0.3 second advantage.

quote Originally posted by stickpony: tell you what.. i will calculate it with car test... its not a perfect program, but lets see what the real difference actually is..il post results in a few minutes

This is great. It just proves my point. Performancewise there's almost no difference between these two tranies like some people want others to beleive just by arguing about ratio numbers. The difference is so small that you could loose more time on other things like tire setup, driver error, etc. If you want to shift gears and have fun then use any stick trany. If you want to seriously drag race for money then go and get a super duper prep 4t65ehd whatever and have fun too

Zac88GT, stickpony,

Can you redo your simulations for the following ratios: 2.50, 1.85, 1.38, 1.03, 0.72 with 3.61 final?
And maybe try those ratios with a 3.94 final?
Not looking for a prediction, just a relative measure.
Thanks.

Heres a side by side comparison with the ratios you specified Will.

_________282_____________F40_____________Will 3.61 final_________Will 3.94 final
time in gears
1st______2.25___________2.077_______________3.837______________3.305
2nd_____2.664___________3.031_______________2.247______________1.882
3rd_____5.57_____________7.18_______________4.622______________3.581
0-60_____4.060____________4.085______________4.347_____________4.215
0-100____10.002____________10.070___________10.225_____________10.237
60'______1.858_____________1.849_____________1.998_____________1.950
1/4 et____12.358___________12.376____________12.519_____________12.445
1/4 trap___108.3____________109.0_____________108.9______________109.3

Does that assume zero shift time?

quote Originally posted by Will: Does that assume zero shift time?

That's assuming a 0.1 second shift time, which is fairly un-realistic. After looking at a bunch of my g-tech runs my shift times are consistantly 0.3 seconds. These are the results with 0.3 second shift time.

_________282_____________F40_____________Will 3.61 final_________Will 3.94 final
time in gears
1st______2.25___________2.077_______________3.837______________3.305
2nd_____2.864___________3.231_______________2.447______________2.082
3rd_____5.77_____________7.380_______________4.822______________3.781
0-60_____4.260____________4.285______________4.547_____________4.415
0-100____10.403____________10.471___________10.625_____________10.837
60'______1.858_____________1.849_____________1.998_____________1.950
1/4 et____12.573___________12.582____________12.691_____________12.655
1/4 trap___107.0____________108.2_____________107.4______________107.9

Using desktop drags quick iterator, after a little less than 80,000 simulations this is what it says the optimum gear and final drive ratios are for best 1/4 mile ET.
1st___4.38
2nd___2.50
3rd___1.75
4th___1.50
5th___0.88
final__2.82

and those results
time in gears
1st______2.326
2nd_____3.227
3rd_____5.610
0-60_____4.294
0-100____10.392
60'______1.858
1/4 et____12.553
1/4 trap___107.8

quote Originally posted by Zac88GT: Using desktop drags quick iterator, after a little less than 80,000 simulations this is what it says the optimum gear and final drive ratios are for best 1/4 mile ET. 1st___4.38 2nd___2.50 3rd___1.75 4th___1.50 5th___0.88 final__2.82

Interestingly, that looks similar to what GM has chosen for their 6 speed automatic...

1st: 4.06
2nd: 2.37
3rd: 1.55
4th: 1.16
5th: 0.85
6th: 0.67

Probably to be used with ~2.73 final drive...

Further examination:

code:

---

GM
Ratio Drop
4.06
2.37  0.584
1.55  0.654
1.16  0.748
0.85  0.733
0.67  0.788

Zac
Ratio Drop
4.38
2.50  0.571
1.75  0.700
1.50  0.857
0.88  0.587

---

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-26-2008).]

will the F40 handle around 410ft lbs of torque?

I think it'd great that you guys have tech specs like this, for those who desire that kind of data. What I don't like is that every time Dark Horizon posts anything on here, it always involves a stab at Archie.

GET A LIFE. If you don't like Archie, or his products/service, that's fine. No one said we all have to like each other. But without fail, nearly every time I see your name in a thread, you have to take a shot at Archie. I have not purchased anything from Archie. But I have spoken with him, and emailed him. He seems like a pretty nice guy to me. And he is one of the only (if not THE only) guy that you can bring your Fiero to and have it transformed into a freakin' rocketship. Where's your shop, Dark?

I bought one of my Fieros from Paul V. Funny, I don't hear him complaining about Archie. His LS1 Archie car is sweet, and he has no complaints to my knowledge.

Everyone seems to feel the need to bash Archie. And those individuals do so with no class or taste. I for one am sick and tired of hearing / reading it.

Archie is a mature enough man that if you state your complaint with a bit of class, he will gladly answer you. But there continue to be a few that feel the need to start a pissing match at every turn.

The majority of us just like to drive our cars and enjoy them, we don't spend our lives at a dragstrip. Get a little perspective for God's sake.

Is it any wonder why Shaun got kicked off of here? And why many on this forum despise RFT? Enough hating already...we're talking about FIEROS, not the cure for cancer!!!!

GROW UP. It's a car, enjoy it and quit bitching and being an ass.

Archie, I will always support you and your efforts. You and your business aren't perfect...but then I have yet to see one that is. Business is not an endeavor that works like magic...there are ups and downs.

End of rant....feel free to PM me if you disagree, or just post your hate here in this thread.

quote Originally posted by BAD87FIERO: will the F40 handle around 410ft lbs of torque?

Your guess is as good as mine.

If you guys are not breaking transmissions... axles ready to handle 1500+whp motors, might not last a day behind a manual trans setup. The manuals put insane amounts of shockloads onto the axles.

Ahh I didnt see this.. lol

quote What I don't like is that every time Dark Horizon posts anything on here, it always involves a stab at Archie.

Thats funny, because you people are just reading these 'archie bashes' between the lines in my posts... I never actually bashed archie directly..

More than a year ago, yes I "bashed archie" in a thread, but it quickly ended up in the trash can.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 09-27-2008).]