1) While the G50 Porsche may be the most desirable functionally, it is a difficult fit due the length and is likely the most expensive at 2 to 3 thousand for a rebuilt unit. 1st gear is also still short, but we're used to that?
2) The Audi 5000 trans is a bit less expansive version of the G50, but is less robust. It is also still a long gearbox. A Kit Car thread details the addition of external plates like a girdle to provide lateral thrust reinforcement to the case. But is this sufficient for a N* engine?
3) The Passat or A4 looks looks like a shorter and better alternative for fitment, but can it handle a V8, say a Northstar? The stock arrangement for this trans is only 150hp and 155 ftlbs.
4) The Chrysler LHS 4 speed auto trans is another better alternative for fitment if you would like an automatic, but does it need a trans controller like the Caddi 4T65E-HD trans, and how much power and torque can it handle? The stock arrangement is a 3.5L V6 with up to 250 hp and 250 ftlbs depending on the model.
5) Back to the G50: to gain length, the trans can be stepped back 2 to 3 inches from the axle center line as shown in one of the links referenced above. This could be done along with a smaller increase in wheelbase and a similar amount of encroachment into the passenger cabin to gain the total foot of length required for the G50. But: What influence does having this fore/aft deflection on the CV's have on the car's performance or CV life?
6) I know already about the TH 325 and 425, but realize that they are old, and very heavy, although the 425 is apparently indestructable.
Comments and answers for any or all of these anybody?
Dave.
------------------ Daviero - 88 N* GT
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12:37 PM
PFF
System Bot
Zac88GT Member
Posts: 1026 From: Victoria BC Registered: Nov 2004
The porche boxter transmissions are a fair bit shorter than the g50 but a thick adapter plate or severe cutting of the bell houseing is required. Another option is the UN1 trans, that's what we're using in my friends northstar lotus esprit swap. It was pretty easy to adapt to the northstar, we cut and milled about 1.25 inches from the UN1 bell housing and cut the flange off a 2.8 v6 camaro bell housing. Then we made a little jig to align them and welded them together. The main bell housing diameters were very very close and about 3/4's of it just welded right up without any extra metal pieces.
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01:08 PM
Daviero Member
Posts: 382 From: Thunder Bay, ON Canada Registered: Jan 2006
That is innovative. Can you post a dimensioned picture with your overall finished front of engine to axle CL, face of finished bell to axle CL, and rear of trans to axle CL? For reference, I found the following text at the bottom of this link: http://www.nfauto.co.uk/options.htm
"The Renault UN1 transaxle, shown above without its bell housing, was fitted to the Renault 25, 2.2ltr, 4 cylinder, the 21 Turbo, some V6 injection cars and all the V6 Turbos. It is identified by an aluminium, arch-shaped plate bolted to the end casing, stamped 'UN1'. This is the strongest of all the Renault transaxles and is well able to cope with up to 350bhp under normal road driving conditions. Ratios differ with each model but the 21 Turbo has the 'longest legs', closely followed by the V6 versions. If you intend to drive mostly in town, choose the 2.2 version. Aluminium bellhousings are available to mount this box to Rover, Ford and Chevy engines."
------------------ Daviero - 88 N* GT
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03:08 PM
ducattiman Member
Posts: 674 From: TheNetherlands Registered: Mar 2003
I dont know about what others know,but i will answer some Questions
As i know for this...
1) G50 is not bulletproof as some think,and cost a ton,if ur on a budget look else where..
2&3) The audi 5000 is the old model as they dont make it any more,Passat and A4 r the newer style,,Now some models in Vw and audi and porsche do share the excact same transmission,u just have to know where to look,,Now any and all transaxles WILL hold up to a Northstar..NOW THE MILLION dollar Question is ,,,WHAT IS IT GONING TO USED FOR?????????????????????
For normal driving around town and a few times of slamming through the gears ,,SOME COMMON SENSE needs to be aply'd,,DOING 7000rpm DROPS NO TRANSAXLE WILL HOLD
4) YES it does need a trans controller,,i think a guy in flordia has it for 750usd(controller and harness)
5) As my researcha nd tons of emails to other people,,if it is under 8 degree's of deflection(i think that is it) it will have no problem,,NOW AGAIN it will hold help if CHEAP and i mean CHEAP parts r used,,allways remember a chain is only as strong as the weakest link
6) AS i am using the Thm 325,i have no problems..
7) The UN1 is not a bad trans,,it was just not made for the torque of americain v8,,and it is just as costly to fix as a G50
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03:26 PM
opm2000 Member
Posts: 1347 From: Versailles, Ky USA Heart of the Bluegrass Registered: Dec 2000
6) I know already about the TH 325 and 425, but realize that they are old, and very heavy, although the 425 is apparently indestructable.
I wouldn't discount the thm325 or thm425. A lot depends on your intended use, ie daily driver, autoX, drag racer, "stop light indy" driver, ricer killer,....
For myself, I like the thm325. Available, easily transplanted, engine computer transparent, and certianly beefy enough to let you put the pedal to the metal whenever.
David Breeze
------------------ Pantera Rebody Kits
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06:03 PM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12477 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
Street Dreams sells the adapter plate to rotate the diff on the longitudinal eldorado trans and allow a reverse rotation layout with the engine pulleys to the rear of the car with more engine/tranny weight in front of the axle centerline. It does not say if it is for the 425 or 325 or both.
Good thoughts, but still not quite enough to satisfy. The TH325 is a 4 spd compared to the heavier 3spd 425, but it is still heavy at 375 lbs as noted on another thread. The flipped configuration for less rear weight bias also requires the oil pan mod, or a torque tube extension if the motor of choice cannot have a modified pan. You mentioned this in a prior post David. The ZF Lola is interesting to say the least. Heaven help you if you break it I suspect. The following link explains the adaptations of various Porsche transmissions, pricey to buy, but ebay may provide a better deal once an option is selected. http://www.renegadehybrids.com/indexx.html Anyone know the weight of the LHS 4 speed, and if anyone has had success with a trans controller? It would seem so far that the inline manual options are limited to the "very expensive" to the "light duty" or "heavy" options
------------------ Daviero - 88 N* GT
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07:55 PM
Daviero Member
Posts: 382 From: Thunder Bay, ON Canada Registered: Jan 2006
I visited a local trans shop today. The advice I got on the Chrysler LHS 4 spd transaxle was not good. Apparently they have a huge diff never to break, but the actual transmission portion is common to the minivans. He said that interestingly he repairs lots of minivans, but not too many LHS or Concords. Maybe its the different numbers of them on the road? In any event he did not recommend more torque for them. The TH325 was on his good list, although he admitted it was rather heavy. He suggested pusuing the Passat/Audi/B5/A4 trans though. There is a local ice race car running one here (yes it gets COLD here in the winter!) with a heavily modified 4 cyl engine. I will contact him to get his experience - he has apparently broke it more than once, but was attributed to high speed load/unload as the ice car hooks up and breaks loose on studded tires. The failure mode will be interesting to learn. Broken gears are better than blowing the case out. Anybody else broke one or see one break?
------------------ Daviero - 88 N* GT
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10:39 PM
Dec 20th, 2007
Daviero Member
Posts: 382 From: Thunder Bay, ON Canada Registered: Jan 2006
I found the following text on the GT40 forum (http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tech-powertrain-transaxles/16420-audi-012-box-streangth-weakness.html) It says, quote:
The model 012 transaxle was available on everything Audi (except TT) 5 speed 2WD from about '97. There was an 013 and 089 model crossover ending that year. Some A8's had a very low ratio 1st gear (I think they were the US models). Others' however, were quite good. Certain codes of the 012 from Audi A4, A6, had the following *net* ratio's (gear x diff): 12.95, 7.18 4.81, 3.48, 2.92 In comparison, the Audi 016 5N: 14.80, 8.75, 5.59, 3.99, 3.00 or the Audi 015 AZZ: 14.00, 8.29, 5.68, 4.16, 3.35. (And) Just for fun, here's the Corvette Z06 (6 speed) model MM6: 9.09, 6.09, 4.45, 3.42, 2.53, 1.71, and the Porsche 930 (4 speed) 9.49, 5.49, 3.76, 2.66.
I have personally held the KEP 016 master tooling plate up to my 01E 6 speed. Only three of the bolt holes line up, and the starter pocket is rotated very slightly clockwise. Now, since the 01E and 012 were available on the same Audi motors, I speculate that the bellhousing patterns are the same. Using that logic, I suspect the 01E adapter plate (like the one offered by RF) would likely work on the 012. Quaife does offer an LSD for the model 012. This is not an endorsement of the 012's strength; simply information. .........Endquote. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elsewhere in the thread, it is mentioned that the input shaft of the 012 trans (Passat/ A4) is larger than the 016 (Audi 5000) which may suggest a larger torque capacity. This looks promissing. Comments anyone? There appears to be little interest in this build concept?
------------------ Daviero - 88 N* GT
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09:32 PM
PFF
System Bot
Dec 21st, 2007
WAWUZAT Member
Posts: 563 From: Newport News, VA Registered: Jun 2002
It measures about 7.5" from the bell housing surface to the axle centerline, 31" from the front of the northstar to the axle centerline, and about 51" from the front of the engine to the back of the trans.
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09:31 PM
Dec 22nd, 2007
motoracer838 Member
Posts: 3751 From: Edgewater Co. USofA Registered: Jan 2006
It measures about 7.5" from the bell housing surface to the axle centerline, 31" from the front of the northstar to the axle centerline, and about 51" from the front of the engine to the back of the trans.
so, that's the un-1 trans axle that you were talking about? Where do you find them here in the states?
Joe
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10:22 AM
Zac88GT Member
Posts: 1026 From: Victoria BC Registered: Nov 2004
I'm not exactly sure where you would find one other than a lotus. If you were planning on using a less powerfull engine there is a smaller scale version of the un1 available from an Eagle Medalion.
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10:57 AM
Dec 26th, 2007
ALLTRBO Member
Posts: 2023 From: College Park, MD Registered: Mar 2006
Nice installation Zac. Using the S10 bell is a good idea - I have a 4T80e to use the bell from, as much as I hate to sacrafice a working transmission. How much have you stretched the car? Looking in the rear window the Fiero interior can be seen, indicating your car is still a Fiero and not another car?. Do you have a side shot of the car as a whole? Turns out the ice racer here in town uses a transverse transmission (01A ?), not the Passat/A4 012 trans, so I have no added information on how strong the 012 might be. Out of interest, I saw 2 Audi 5000 trans on Ebay for $350 each over Christmas, but if the 012 is just as strong, it would be nicer to start with a newer trans from a late model car rather than a 20 yr old one with unknown miles on it. Please chime in if you have any insight on the 012? edit: corrected typo. ------------------ Daviero - 88 N* GT
[This message has been edited by Daviero (edited 12-27-2007).]
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05:41 PM
Zac88GT Member
Posts: 1026 From: Victoria BC Registered: Nov 2004
Originally posted by Daviero: Nice installation Zac. Using the S10 bell is a good idea - I have a 4T65e to use the bell from, as much as I hate to sacrafice a working transmission. How much have you stretched the car? Looking in the rear window the Fiero interior can be seen, indicating your car is still a Fiero and not another car?. Do you have a side shot of the car as a whole?
The car isn't my fiero, it's my friends 89 Lotus Esprit turbo which didn't require any stretching and i haven't got any side shots yet. We thought of using the bell housing flange from the 4t80e that came with the N* but it was much easier to get an S10 housing and use it instead.
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08:39 PM
Daviero Member
Posts: 382 From: Thunder Bay, ON Canada Registered: Jan 2006
Your thread has good info ALLTRBO. Like someone said in the thread though, "do you really want to spend that much on a Fiero chassis....?" In that spirit, I am looking for an alternative if there is one. The Audi 5000 016 is one proven option, and the 012 from the Passat/A4 is as yet unproven to our knowledge, but is newer, shorter, and more available. As much as the 012 is attractive though, I don't want to re-invent a 'square wheel' if the 012 is unsuitable for reasons that I am just ignorant of....
------------------ Daviero - 88 N* GT
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10:53 PM
Dec 28th, 2007
ALLTRBO Member
Posts: 2023 From: College Park, MD Registered: Mar 2006
The reason people spend that much on the certain Porsche's (930's and G50's) is because they have big power V8's in front of them, and nothing else short of the custom gearbox's will handle it.
I agree, if you won't exceed the capacity of the tranny go with what's cheaper. I'm interested to see how they all hold up, but don't have any personal experience with them.
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10:59 AM
Daviero Member
Posts: 382 From: Thunder Bay, ON Canada Registered: Jan 2006
Hmmmm. Some one has to have knowledge of the 012. I have a friend into Porsches - he has an older 911, 924, and just got a 928. I'll see what info he might get from his Porsche and VW forum. I agree about the power requirement being matched to the transmission ALLTRBO. Ducattiman posted earlier that any transaxle would survive a Northstar - but while the N* might be a lower torque V8, and spirited driving is all I would deliver to it, the N* would still have capacity to bust a too light gearbox. Sort of like if you were being as rough with a wine glass as you could with a beer mug......
------------------ Daviero - 88 N* GT
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11:19 PM
PFF
System Bot
Dec 29th, 2007
rockcrawl Member
Posts: 2528 From: Lehigh Valley, PA Registered: Jul 2000
Here's a pic of the Audi/Getrag 016. It's about 7.825" from the bellhousing face to the axle centerline. KEP makes an adapter for the 3800 V6 to Audi, It would probably fit the Northstar with minor mods. There is also a company that makes cable shifters for them.
This is my spare engine/trans that I'm using for mock-up. It's going into a Fiero chassis with 11" stretch. There is an additional 1.375" of length for the BMW V12 adapter, but a Northstar adapter could probably be made about 1/2" thinner.The firewall will need to be cut and moved forward and the axle flanges will be set back about 2" from the hubs. I can get more measurements if someone is interested. This combo is pretty much impossible in a stock Fiero chassis.
After much searching I found the following: http://www.gt40s.com/forum/...tml?highlight=passat The thread suggests that the 012 from the Passat or A4 is as strong as the Audi 5000 016. The GT40 sites and threads have much more longitudinal info for those who are interested - also with more of an international flair. I had found a thread from a guy in Toronto running an 012 behind a V8 but I lost the address and can't find it again. I can't remember the details of his engine, and the thread did not state his reliability success. I think I found the info I was looking for with this thread though, so I will let this topic die and willl restart another if/when I begin another Northstar Fiero in the longitudinal orientation (likely using an 012 gearbox)
------------------ Daviero - 88 N* GT
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11:54 PM
Jan 30th, 2009
THE BEAST Member
Posts: 1177 From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA Registered: Dec 2000
It may be hard to find but what about a transaxel out of a Pantera. They were powered by ford and they were sold in the us from 1970 till 1974. they were sold overseas till 1996. May be another option to look into.
------------------ Home of 3 1/2 Fieros, a 900HP AWD S10, a 1967 Pontiac Catalina Convertable, a Chevy Avalanche and lots of misc GM parts.
The reason people spend that much on the certain Porsche's (930's and G50's) is because they have big power V8's in front of them, and nothing else short of the custom gearbox's will handle it.
It may be hard to find but what about a transaxel out of a Pantera. They were powered by ford and they were sold in the us from 1970 till 1974. they were sold overseas till 1996. May be another option to look into.
They are ZF axels and are even less abounded than any of the other options, and 'cause of it, is the most expensive of them all, in stock from ( believe me you can blow up to 25K and more on a Custom Porsche gearbox) For example not all G50 axels are the same...
Originally posted by weaselbeak: 66 is what I have.
when chevy had problems with the 65 vair 4 speed breaking they went with off the shelf parts from the vett box for the 66 I guess it was cheaper and quicker to just grab the existing parts
a buddy built two 66 vairs with V 8s in the back seat one was a pure road racer that was very quick that car won most of the local club races intill a full race BMW CSLR showed up
the other car was used as a street drag car both survived hard use with race tuned 327 motors
the adpter plates were still being made a few years ago as they were use in offroad race buggys
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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02:01 PM
Feb 2nd, 2009
THE BEAST Member
Posts: 1177 From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA Registered: Dec 2000
How about Audi, or Subaru? (I once found an adapter plate for Subaru trannies, that eliminates the driveshaft for the rear wheels)
Audi gear boxes are rather weak, and there’re maybe one or two worth the shot 01E I believe to be the best one of the bunch, since it came in Diesel Audis and the gearing is better for big torque engines. Also therefore a bit more durable, but none of these were offered in USA.
The Subaru is a great gear box, but its torque ratings and fame comes from its natural 4WD form. So when converting it to a 2WD you putting all the power that was meant to handle through only 2 wheels Vs 4 and believe me this will instantly Grenade the transmission.
JG
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10:39 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14278 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by ray b: a 4 speed from a 66 vair is the goodie, it was based on the rock crusher box
and there were kits made to bolt up a chevy V8 to the wrong end making a vair with a chevy V8 in the back seat
pre 66 use a box with a weak input shaft that the vair flat 6 could break my 65 sure did
Corvair gearboxes are NOT Muncies... they are based on the Saginaw light duty 4 speed. The Corvair gearbox will be as wrong as the Corvette T56 transaxle for a mid-engine Fiero.
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03:58 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14278 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by THE BEAST: The Subaru is a great gear box, but its torque ratings and fame comes from its natural 4WD form. So when converting it to a 2WD you putting all the power that was meant to handle through only 2 wheels Vs 4 and believe me this will instantly Grenade the transmission.
Substantiation?
For instance, if you hook up through two tires instead of four, the total power/torque through-put of the transmission will be lower because traction will be more limited. Spools are available for Subaru gearboxes, and I've heard that the STi's 6 speed is pretty stout.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-02-2009).]
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04:02 PM
gem1138 Member
Posts: 631 From: Baton Rouge, LA Registered: Aug 2007
I believe that I still have a “Sports Car Graphic” in my attic with an article about the Corvair V8 swap. My memory is that they had a throttle limiter on it to give the transmission some chance of survival with a small block Chevy engine. I had a ’65 Corvair in high school so I was very aware of the Ralph Nader book “Unsafe at Any Speed” about the pre ’65 models. The bad press insured that GM would not spend further money on R&D after the ’65 Corvair came out, so I really doubt that the ’66 transmission was any different than the ’65. It was, though, the fastest shifting manual that I’ve ever driven.
