I could get these ECU's with the pigtails by the truckload from the junkyards around me, if enough would be interested, fill my pm box up and I will see what I can do.

Ok here is the mpg on the 2.8 with the setup ryan did for me

34mpg just did 1600 miles

thanks again Ryan

Ryan, I am using a 7730 ECM programmed by the "other Ryan" (Hess) on my Northstar install. Your mention of a digital cruise back on page 1 caught my attention. Can you post more info on that? It would be a much better option than the ugly stock vacuum one. What is required to be scavanged - the cruise module too?, what is the doner family of vehicles, and what is the interface with the Fiero system?
Thanks, Dave

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Daviero - 88 N* GT

quote Originally posted by Daviero: Ryan, I am using a 7730 ECM programmed by the "other Ryan" (Hess) on my Northstar install. Your mention of a digital cruise back on page 1 caught my attention. Can you post more info on that? It would be a much better option than the ugly stock vacuum one. What is required to be scavanged - the cruise module too?, what is the doner family of vehicles, and what is the interface with the Fiero system? Thanks, Dave

Dave, wiring instructions for the "digital cruise" (aka: Delco Electronic/Electromotive) can be downloaded here: http://dtcc.cz28.com/files/electcrz.zip

What you are going to need to do is locate an electronic cruise module and cable that best matches your engine/throttle body. If you are using a 1996-up Northstar throttle body, simply track down one of these cars in the junkyard and get the cruise control module unit and cable off of that car. If you are using an earlier throttle body, more research will be needed as I am not sure when the Northstar started using the all-electronic cruise setup.

-ryan

Thanks Ryan. I still have my doner 97 Deville. It is a great resource. I will check out the module. It looks like in the info you posted that the Fiero cruise module is still used too.
Dave.

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Daviero - 88 N* GT

quote Originally posted by Daviero: Thanks Ryan. I still have my doner 97 Deville. It is a great resource. I will check out the module. It looks like in the info you posted that the Fiero cruise module is still used too. Dave.

No, neither the stock Fiero cruise module nor cruise servo are used once you install the electronic unit. The only components you are reusing are the existing Fiero's cruise wiring, brake/clutch switches, and the column-mounted cruise switch stalk.

Hmmm, I think I see. The Fiero data in page 1 is for reference, and the Grand Prix data on page 2 is the example of the digital servo and module?
But what about the pinout chart calling out pinouts to the Fiero OE module? This is what confuses it. It does stand to reason that the module goes with the servo though.
Dave.

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Daviero - 88 N* GT

quote Originally posted by Daviero: Hmmm, I think I see. The Fiero data in page 1 is for reference, and the Grand Prix data on page 2 is the example of the digital servo and module? But what about the pinout chart calling out pinouts to the Fiero OE module? This is what confuses it. It does stand to reason that the module goes with the servo though. Dave.

Ignore everything but the PINOUT CHART. The other two diagrams/info pages are only there for greater detail of explaination of what the circuits do (I guess I need to remove them from that .zip file, don't I).

Ryan, so the second half of the chart is rearranging the pinout of the OE Fiero connector to suit the digital module?
(I suppose this should be in another thread?)
Dave

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Daviero - 88 N* GT

quote Originally posted by Daviero: Ryan, so the second half of the chart is rearranging the pinout of the OE Fiero connector to suit the digital module? (I suppose this should be in another thread?) Dave

The second half of the pinout chart explains that you are connecting 3 pairs of terminals/wires (+ the brake sw circuit) from the OE Fiero cruise module together. This shunts the circuits from the cruise switch on the column and the brake switch to the wiring going to the rear of the car where you are going to install/hook up the new module. My pinout instructions clearly explain what wires need to be connected where. After you are done, you will NOT be plugging the stock Fiero cruise module back in.

Ryan - I got it now. Thanks. I was thinking that the digital one was 2 piece system (servo+module) but if I understand correctly, the digital is just 1 combined unit. I would have had trouble finding the digital module under the dash in the u-pull!
Sorry for polluting the 7720 thread, but it is sort of related.
Dave.

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Daviero - 88 N* GT

quote Originally posted by Daviero: Ryan - I got it now. Thanks. I was thinking that the digital one was 2 piece system (servo+module) but if I understand correctly, the digital is just 1 combined unit. I would have had trouble finding the digital module under the dash in the u-pull! Sorry for polluting the 7720 thread, but it is sort of related. Dave.

Dave, no pollution of this thread occurred. The electronic cruise is an upgrade just like the 7730 is, and it ties right in with this subject anyway. Concerning the electronic cruise, yes, it is an all-in-one combined unit under the hood. I went ahead and revised my pinout instructions and added another method should you run into a non-working cruise issue using the method you already have. The new method is now included in the .zip file which you can now download at the same link I posted earlier.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-21-2007).]

Ryan,
I’ve started parts shopping and have a few more questions. I want to get everything I need and my plan of attack laid out, then I’ll feel ready to send you my MEMCAL for reprogramming. So far, I’ve gotten a Delphi remanufactured ECM from a 91 Firebird auto from eBay for $10, and a second 7730 from a 90 Corsica also from eBay for $10 (never hurts to have backup). This leads up to several more questions about parts I still need & things I have to do.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: EGR Vacuum Connections - Vacuum caps were used to block off un-needed vac ports. I also installed late model GM electronic cruise control on this engine which allowed the removal of the vac reservoir and hard lines. The EVAP system did require the addition of a computer-controlled EVAP solenoid and some rerouting of vacuum lines for it.

What vehicle did the cruise module come from that you used in kilrblu?

Until I can come up with a new EGR adapter, I’ll have you program me without EGR. Can I leave the old EGR in place with the vacuum lines still hooked up?
I plan on wiring for the new EGR and EVAP to be ready for a possible engine update down the road

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: Actually it's the 87-88 4 Cyl tray. But yea, In all reality, you could provide a "kit" with the third connector, explicit wiring instructions, the speedo adaptor circuit, the EGR and Fan and Knock sensor whip's, an ECM and a chip, burnt to match, and if a 3.4 engine is installed (or any engine with the crank sensor) an adaptor cable from the Distributor to the DIS (they use almost the same wiring anyway, just a different connector).

What “speedo adaptor circuit” is Fierobsessed talking about?

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Just get a pin removal tool for the ECM connectors

What pin extractor is needed for the ECM connectors, and where can I find one?

In discussing the knock sensor, you mention:

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: The stock 2.8 Fiero engine does not have a knock sensor installed. However, it does have provisions for a knock sensor. If you are using an earlier engine block, you can simply install the proper knock sensor into one of the block coolant drain ports. If you have a later block, it will have a separate boss already tapped with the proper size pipe thread for a knock sensor in the back of the block.

Which category does the 87 2.8 fall into, earlier or later?

Again, I offer my thanks for everyone’s help and input.
Bob

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Bob
87 GT 5spd
05 Vibe

quote Originally posted by What about Bob: Ryan, I’ve started parts shopping and have a few more questions. I want to get everything I need and my plan of attack laid out, then I’ll feel ready to send you my MEMCAL for reprogramming. So far, I’ve gotten a Delphi remanufactured ECM from a 91 Firebird auto from eBay for $10, and a second 7730 from a 90 Corsica also from eBay for $10 (never hurts to have backup). This leads up to several more questions about parts I still need & things I have to do. What vehicle did the cruise module come from that you used in kilrblu?

I believe I used a cruise setup from a 96-up 3800 Series II (SC and n/a) engine from a W-body car (has the longer cable). A small, custom bracket needed to be made so the cable could be attached to the intake manifold (actually bolts to the existing Fiero throttle cable bracket). I am not aware of any direct-fit electronic cruise setups for the Fiero 2.8.

quote Until I can come up with a new EGR adapter, I’ll have you program me without EGR. Can I leave the old EGR in place with the vacuum lines still hooked up? I plan on wiring for the new EGR and EVAP to be ready for a possible engine update down the road

All vacuum lines should be removed from the stock Fiero 2.8 EGR system. The stock Fiero EGR valve can remain in-place to plug the hole in the system until you get an adapter. You can leave the stock EVAP system as-is on the Fiero, and it will work just fine. You don't have to install the EVAP solenoid for the 7730 ECM unless you want to. I just did it because I wanted to eliminate as much of the stock Fiero vacuum lines as possible when I converted klrblu.

quote What “speedo adaptor circuit” is Fierobsessed talking about?

This one: http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/speedo2.gif

quote What pin extractor is needed for the ECM connectors, and where can I find one?

I don't have a part number handy for this tool but you can purchase what you need from NAPA or thru GM parts.

quote In discussing the knock sensor Which category does the 87 2.8 fall into, earlier or later?

Good question. I have seen some 87 blocks with an extra boss already tapped for a knock sensor and some not. If yours only has 1 boss in the rear of the block currently occupied by a coolant drain plug, you can simply remove that plug and install the knock sensor. Only use liquid thread sealant on the knock sensor's threads; DO NOT USE TEFLON TAPE. Torque the knock sensor to 14 ft/lbs.

-ryan

Wow! Very interesting topic here! This sounds like something that I might want to do on my '87, but I do have one question. With the talk of better fuel economy, I got to thinking... what does this whole swap do for power output?

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'86 2.5 Sport Coupe 5 speed w/ Y99 rally package, Sumitomo HTR-200s, KYB shocks and struts, poly cradle and dogbone bushings, fierostore header, high flow cat

'04 GTO 4 speed Auto DD

quote Originally posted by SpideR W: Wow! Very interesting topic here! This sounds like something that I might want to do on my '87, but I do have one question. With the talk of better fuel economy, I got to thinking... what does this whole swap do for power output?

Probably nothing, assuming the stock system is tuned correctly for the current engine. Now where the 7730 has the advantage is in the tuning aspect; there are many more things that can be tuned with the 7730 ECM than what can be done with the stock Fiero 2.8 ECM.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Probably nothing, assuming the stock system is tuned correctly for the current engine. Now where the 7730 has the advantage is in the tuning aspect; there are many more things that can be tuned with the 7730 ECM than what can be done with the stock Fiero 2.8 ECM.

The reason I was asking is the whole bit where the 3.1s running on that ECM were only getting 140HP, which is what we already get from the 2.8. So then I just got to wondering if it was something in the ECM since they used the same heads and a very similar intake manifold... just hoping that it wasn't the ECM holding those back, but now I'm just guessing

Another question though, did all the gen2s run the digital EGR? I had an '89 6000 a while back and I can't remember for the life of me if it was a digital EGR... What model has the best EGR for this setup?

quote Originally posted by SpideR W: The reason I was asking is the whole bit where the 3.1s running on that ECM were only getting 140HP, which is what we already get from the 2.8. So then I just got to wondering if it was something in the ECM since they used the same heads and a very similar intake manifold... just hoping that it wasn't the ECM holding those back, but now I'm just guessing Another question though, did all the gen2s run the digital EGR? I had an '89 6000 a while back and I can't remember for the life of me if it was a digital EGR... What model has the best EGR for this setup?

We could devote an entire multi-page thread to GM factory HP ratings on these engines which will explain that certain engines were rated at different power levels depending on what cars they were installed into. But I don't want to get into that here. Lets just say that the factory ECM itself isn't going to be "holding power back" on any engine. I have been doing custom chips for years and have discovered that, in most cases, GM didn't use the ECM programming to hold back any power because this would affect emissions in a negative way -- at least on a stock engine. Instead, they made mechanical changes to the engine, induction, and exhaust systems that did tend to "restrict" power across certain vehicle lines. Therefore, you shouldn't be concerned that swapping in a 7730 ECM will result in going backwards in performance. Even if the stock programming would do this, chances are you are going to get a custom chip done for this conversion anyway so this shouldn't be a factor.

Concerning the EGR system, not all GEN2 engines used the digital EGR. The early GEN-2 engines had a vacuum operated EGR valve that also had a position sensor on it. However, ALL of these cars used the DIS ignition system. The F-body 2.8 cars that had distributors used the standard EGR valve; BUT also used a different computer (not the 7730).

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-31-2007).]

SpideR, Darth's point is well taken. GM sometimes rated the same engine differently. In fact, this happened even in just different years of Fieros.

For example, the `85 and `86 V-6s in Fieros were rated at 140 HP, whereas the `87 and `88 V-6s in Fieros were rated at 135 HP.

GM didn't suddenly get stupid about creating engine horsepower with the `87s and `88s. However, they DID report the horsepower attained by the `87 and `88 V-6 Fiero engines at a different, and lower RPM level (4500 RPM), than they did with the `85s and `86s (5200 RPM).

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: We could devote an entire multi-page thread to GM factory HP ratings on these engines which will explain that certain engines were rated at different power levels depending on what cars they were installed into. But I don't want to get into that here. Lets just say that the factory ECM itself isn't going to be "holding power back" on any engine. I have been doing custom chips for years and have discovered that, in most cases, GM didn't use the ECM programming to hold back any power because this would affect emissions in a negative way -- at least on a stock engine. Instead, they made mechanical changes to the engine, induction, and exhaust systems that did tend to "restrict" power across certain vehicle lines. Therefore, you shouldn't be concerned that swapping in a 7730 ECM will result in going backwards in performance. Even if the stock programming would do this, chances are you are going to get a custom chip done for this conversion anyway so this shouldn't be a factor. Concerning the EGR system, not all GEN2 engines used the digital EGR. The early GEN-2 engines had a vacuum operated EGR valve that also had a position sensor on it. However, ALL of these cars used the DIS ignition system. The F-body 2.8 cars that had distributors used the standard EGR valve; BUT also used a different computer (not the 7730).

I gotta say man, that definately makes sense... I guess i was just kinda thinking out loud. I didn't intend to hijack your thread either

Anyways, if I read this correctly, the camarobird used the 7730 ECM to control the 3.1. Does this mean that the EGR I'd be looking for is for the camarobird of the same vintage?

quote Originally posted by SpideR W: Anyways, if I read this correctly, the camarobird used the 7730 ECM to control the 3.1. Does this mean that the EGR I'd be looking for is for the camarobird of the same vintage?

yes, but any digital EGR valve you find on a 2.8 or 3.1 V6 will work with this computer.

Is the "speedo adapter circuit" required with the 7730 for the "speedo" to work correctly?

As you know Ryan did the swap for me with this ecm and a 4T60 auto here is the info on my total run:

Starting miles 24,000
Ending Miles 27,754
Miles Run 3,754
Gal. of Gas 101.701

Miles per. Gal 36.912

This is City and Highway Driving combined
and I had 200# on a cargo box on the back

Anybody that has a 3 speed automatic should be looking at this swap as gas prices climb.

email me if you have any questions on how the car drives kilrblu@sbcglobal.net

[This message has been edited by Capitol City Fiero (edited 04-03-2007).]

quote Originally posted by MedRedGT: Is the "speedo adapter circuit" required with the 7730 for the "speedo" to work correctly?

You only need to hook up and use the "speedo adapter circuit" if one or more of the following conditions are true:

-The vehicle speed sensor in the trans is not a GM 4000 pulse per mile output unit (stock Fiero VSS sensors are 4000ppm)
-If you want to be able to have the speedometer calibrated thru the ECM programming
-If you want the Fiero speedo running off the ECM VSS output signal

Even if your conversion doesn't meet any one of the above conditions, the ECM's VSS input wires should still be spliced into the existing Fiero VSS wiring so the ECM can "see" vehicle speed. The ECM uses this input to determine decelleration fuel enleanment and cutoff protocols, as well as to help determine idle control characteristics (along with some other minor things).

quote Originally posted by Capitol City Fiero: As you know Ryan did the swap for me with this ecm and a 4T40 auto here is the info on my total run:

Just to make a slight correction, Capitol City Fiero's Fiero has the 4T60 (440-T4) trans, not the 4T40.

Well I wired up my 7730 off a '88 2.8L Beretta that went into an '86 with a '95 Camaro 3.4L OHV engine. It started on the first try and idled very rich when warming up (10:1 on the wideband). After it went closed loop it came right down to 14.7:1. So I will need Darth Fiero to burn a new memcal to get it spot on. I have to say it idled beautifully. No surges, no roughness, just friggin incredible. And no SES light either (not yet anyway).

I used the DIS from the '95 3.4L engine. Only the coil pack, ignition module, and low res crank position sensor are used. I had the wiring harness off the 3.4L so getting the right connectors was a matter of cutting and splicing. The high res 24x crank position sensor (the one located on the 3.4L timing chain cover) was not needed, nor was the cam sensor needed. I also disconnected the connector on the cold start injector.

I can't wait to get the wiring cleaned up and ready to road test.

Thanks again to Darth Fiero for telling us about this ECM.

...

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 04-24-2008).]

Just a real quick question, not to get off topic or anything. But i've seen the expected mpg's for the auto's and maybe i just missed it but i've got the 2.8 with the muncie 4 speed, what should i expect as some sort of baseline mpg with this upgrade.
Thanks,

quote Originally posted by GT2efiero: Just a real quick question, not to get off topic or anything. But i've seen the expected mpg's for the auto's and maybe i just missed it but i've got the 2.8 with the muncie 4 speed, what should i expect as some sort of baseline mpg with this upgrade. Thanks,

With the ECM upgrade alone you may not see any MPG improvement at all, or you may see up to 2mpg improvement over stock because of the lean-cruise mode. The problem with the manual transmissions that GM shipped with the 2.8's is they had really low final drive gearing (~3.65 ratio) which isn't that great for highway fuel economy.

I picked up some parts today to convert my sisters 86SE V6 car. Just wanted to see if I got the right stuff so far. The computer came out of what I THINK was a 92 camaro. It was definately a V6, but I don't know the exact year. The EGR I just found in the engine bay of some random car. It was already cut and unbolted so I figured I'd give it a try.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 05-14-2007).]

Looking good. I would highly recommend getting the right tool to separate the pins from the connectors instead of cut/splice/solder. I did the C/S/S and it took all dang day. And it gave me a nice blister from stripping wires (boohoo, I know). Pushing out the pin from the Fiero connector and inserting it in the 7730 connector is slick. Almost all the wire colors on mine were the same. JMHO.

If you are really ambitious you could make a plug and play harness. I guess you would only do this if you wanted to go back to the Fiero ECM in a snap.

Also, I mounted my ECM with the connectors pointed down. Seemed like the way to go as mounting it with the connectors on the side (like Darth Fiero pics) leaves very little room and makes the wiring take a sharp 180* bend. I fabbed a bracket out of 1/8" X 4" aluminum bar stock.

Good luck!

quote Originally posted by Capitol City Fiero: As you know Ryan did the swap for me with this ecm and a 4T60 auto here is the info on my total run: Starting miles 24,000 Ending Miles 27,754 Miles Run 3,754 Gal. of Gas 101.701 Miles per. Gal 36.912 This is City and Highway Driving combined and I had 200# on a cargo box on the back Anybody that has a 3 speed automatic should be looking at this swap as gas prices climb. email me if you have any questions on how the car drives kilrblu@sbcglobal.net

Here's a little bump for the thread, I met Capital City Fiero last weekend, and he had nothing but good things to say about this swap and Ryan's work. It was great to meet you, and that is one nice GT you have there.

------------------
Vin

Fieros at The Glen 2007
Fieros at Carlisle 2007
Mid Atlantic Fiero Owners Association
86 SE 2M6 Deceased
86 SE 2M4 Burned
87 GT Black
87 GT Med. Red over Silver

I finally got everything together and took my '86 GT 3.4L with the 7730 for a spin. Ran and idled perfect. I am using the 3.4L DIS too. Now to get that 4t60 and electronic cruise and......

Bump

Hudni wrote:
" I used the DIS from the '95 3.4L engine. Only the coil pack, ignition module, and low res crank position sensor are used. I had the wiring harness off the 3.4L so getting the right connectors was a matter of cutting and splicing. The high res 24x crank position sensor (the one located on the 3.4L timing chain cover) was not needed, nor was the cam sensor needed. I also disconnected the connector on the cold start injector."

How do you get away without using the sensors you mentioned? Does the ecu not look for input from them?


Also, slightly off topic, Can anyone comment on the use of aluminum heads on the iron 60' v-6 block, now that the engine can be run using DIS? I would think that the updated design of the heads would do wonders with what could be done with spark advance tuning, higher compression, etc...?

Thanks

The 1227730 ECM does not use the hi-res 24x crank sensor, the cam sensor, or the cold start injector. It is not designed to use these sensors and there are no inputs to the ECM for them. I can report the car runs great with Darth Fiero's new chip. It idles smooth and steady. Starts right away. Runs smooth all the way until it runs out of air at about 5k.

I like the idea of being able to use the 3400 with the aluminum heads and DIS but have not actually seen a picture of what one looks like in the car. What does the intake look like? Is the TB on the correct side? How is the cooling handled?

Rather than hijack this thread with really good info and discussion, I think i'll start a new one and see what people can come up with...

I just used a paper clip to pop the wires out of the connector....

Does anyone know if tunerpro or tunercat has the software to program factory parts (purge or egr) to control aftermarket accessories? I know in my Honda I have a modified ecu and I have the purge outputs triggering my water injection. Just thinking maybe i could use them to trigger n20.

Thanks

sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread, but what year Beretta's can you pull these parts out of?
(saw at the beginning of the thread 92?)

my friend has a dead 93 berretta, will it work for anything?

digital egr?

ecm?

knock sensor?

anything else I need?

[This message has been edited by Madess (edited 05-10-2007).]

Rockauto lists the 1227730 as the ECM for the '93 Beretta so you are good there.

Add the digital EVAP purge valve to your list and (if you want) an electronic cruise control.