quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: There is also another factor that is not being discussed- the NHRA rule book. For instance with a supercharged engine stainless braided steel lines are a must, so is a power disconnect switch.

"What building a NHRA qualified 3800 SC drag car costs"

quote I still stand by my previous comment that the best always costs more... for instance Gatrback Belts , SS braided fuel lines, high strength custom axles, a new engine, a generation V supercharger, PRJ fuel rails, SLP 85MM MAF sensor etc etc..

What makes any one of the above the best, and in what respect? My personal opinion:

• None make the car perform better. Even if they did, tapping power is relatively cheap and can be done more efficiently other ways.
  
• None make the car more reliable and only improve aesthetics. Also you're advised not to use the cross sectional belts with the L67.
  
• All of these parts simply inflate the price with little to no satisfaction returned, other than bragging rights and buying your way into top fuel drag standards.
  

You're list does not represent the true costs of a standard swap. I could chrome a lawnmower motor, but then I'm not going to include that in a quote to someone who needs to rebuild theirs.

I believe in buying quality parts, I have $250 (apiece) Pirelli tires on my car, a set of $2000 rims, polyurethane, a well done engine swap, Mikes leather seats, expensive paint.. on and on and on and on. But if someone asked my how much it would cost to have a very decent Fiero, I would Never quote them my cars cost.

quote EMC, your posts seem to have a notably hostile tone. Is there a reason for this? This post was just done to be helpful. Perhaps you are just having a bad day?

Honestly, I get hot when people try to pass off information that isn't substantiated. You say your list is an honest representation, and then back it up with NHRA standards. I can't agree with that. Not only that, but you keep pushing the right way to build a swap is your way- once again I disagree fervently. This is coming from someone who's collecting data for an L67 from other successful owners.



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_______________1988 Pontiac Fiero: Formula/GT - 3.4 DOHC - 5 Speed_______________

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 07-16-2008).]

hmm. i don't know what to say. the mods he listed provide a pretty decent gain. being that my car is fast and all :P but emc, why don't you post up numbers on how much it cost? prove him wrong?

quote Originally posted by Billybo455: hmm. i don't know what to say. the mods he listed provide a pretty decent gain. being that my car is fast and all :P but emc, why don't you post up numbers on how much it cost? prove him wrong?

agreed. I think your right in some ways, but your giving him alot of crap and you havent even done a 3.8 swap.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I am well known in Fiero circles and my swaps are real!!!! ... and so were the prices that I posted for everything. Don't have a website yet of the build but hope to in the near future. Sure I could have skimped and saved a few hundred bucks but I'm fussy and wanted the best swap that I could build. For instance take a look at the axles that we used. Pretty big axle stock wouldn't you say? ....and they fit with precision. Point is quality costs money my friend. You get what you pay for

You are well known for the 3.4 turbo swaps you used to do and your kits. You are new to the 3800SC world and have only been messing with the 3800s for a year or so. You still have alot ot learn and will still have many questions to ask being you are still new at this. I am no expert but I can tell you that it doesnt take that much to install a 3800SC into a Fiero even if you buy some of nicest parts out there. And the axles you had made are no better than the set I have on my DD modded 3800SC that runs 12.0 flat lauching on sticking MT DRs. The only differance is you paid way more for them then I did for the one I made up for my car. Qaulity cost but not as much as you have listed being I have about $3500 in my swap itself and it have qaulity parts on it and looks great. You will learn as you get a few more swaps under your belt that is doesnt cost as much as you have listed. Here is a nice clean quality swap with MODs that has 30K put on it since the swap that only has $3500 or so in it. Just think what I could have done with $7500!!!!

quote Originally posted by Jrgicehc: agreed. I think your right in some ways, but your giving him alot of crap and you havent even done a 3.8 swap.

hahwha?

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: You are well known for the 3.4 turbo swaps you used to do and your kits. You are new to the 3800SC world and have only been messing with the 3800s for a year or so. You still have alot ot learn and will still have many questions to ask being you are still new at this. I am no expert but I can tell you that it doesnt take that much to install a 3800SC into a Fiero even if you buy some of nicest parts out there. And the axles you had made are no better than the set I have on my DD modded 3800SC that runs 12.0 flat lauching on sticking MT DRs. The only differance is you paid way more for them then I did for the one I made up for my car. Qaulity cost but not as much as you have listed being I have about $3500 in my swap itself and it have qaulity parts on it and looks great. You will learn as you get a few more swaps under your belt that is doesnt cost as much as you have listed. Here is a nice clean quality swap with MODs that has 30K put on it since the swap that only has $3500 or so in it. Just think what I could have done with $7500!!!!

Thats a nice air intake system that you have there!

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

I did not do my swap, I bought the car with it already done... but since owning the car I've

Replace the engine and tranny mounts - Required
Replaced engine and tranny mount brackets - Required
Rewired the engine harness - Required
Rerouted the vac lines and hoses - Required
Replaced the clutch and flywheel - Required
Installed Lowmount Alt bracket and dogbone - Required
Fuel Pump - Required
MSD Plug Wires - Required due to moved coil pack

Those are the required things, and that ran me close to 2 grand. Then when you add up the nuts bolts, hoses, the clutch and flywheel along with heat shrink, solder, wire and required tools to get it done, it will add a couple hundred more to the budget.

Then the non stock things that are not necessary but things I wanted like
Intercooler
Heat exchanger
Gen 5 Blower
ZZP rockers
3.2 pulley
ZZP Modular Pulley system
Added fourth engine mount on cradle
Front mounted battery
Fuel Rail
SS Fuel Hose and fittings

That is about another 2 grand added to the cost.

My take is the cost is up to how you shop and how much work you do yourself. I can not see the swap being done for less than 2 grand.

I will have to add that I have never itemized exactly how much I've spent, but it is not near the 7500 that Dennis spent and is probably closer to what Mstangbware spent

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Thats a nice air intake system that you have there!

Being critical of MstangsBware's working air intake? It may not be pretty but it's functional. He spent half of what you did and has what "He" wants. Your install is nice and clean but in my opinion his install is cleaner than yours (not including the Texas dirt ). You have wires everywhere and the fuel rail feed over the supercharger and an unsightly battery in the trunk when his all appear to be hidden. It's part of the preference.

Dennis, you may have done all your work yourself, are pleased with what you did and didn't cut corners in many areas. But a lot of the things you did others may not feel they are necessary for their particular application.

It's nice that you did a breakdown of your expenses but not every functional 3.8SC Series II/III swap will cost the same. Now we know where your install compares against the price/parts of say a WCF, FastFieros or MstangsBware's install.

Each one is different. Are they all functional? Yes. Do they give the owner what they want? Most likely.

It all ends up with what a person wants and what they want to pay to achieve their wants.

With having over twenty swaps behind me I think I know at least a little on this subject and with that said the cost of a 3800SC swap can vary depending on a lot of factors including the condition of the car getting the swap it self.
Fancy after market fuel rails look nice as well as a lot of other things that can be added to the swap but are not necessary.
Not every one is building a show car some just want more power and more reliability but still want to daily drive their cars and be able to keep fuel in the tank and legitimate insurance on their cars.
As well not every one wants to spend hundreds of dollars on fancy tranny mounts when stock ones are available for a lot less money and will work just as well on a stock engine which most swaps use is a stock 3800SC engine no extra mods no fancy shinny parts just a basic set up mounted nice and strong to make for a nice reliable car with enough power to make the car able to keep up with or beat most modern cars.
There is nothing wrong with the swaps costing in the thousands if that is what the person wants but at the same time there is also nothing wrong with a basic clean stock 3800SC swap so enough of the bickering and macho crap about which is better and lets try and get along and just enjoy our cars with out all the crap. Dan

Sounds like you could give an estimate figure, whats it run for one of those reliable drivers that aren't showcars? Say the car its going into is solid...

I would say $2,000 would be a solid estimate for turnkey, using only stock drivetrain and a combination of OEM and homemade parts for the DIY.

EDIT - just wanted to add that this estimate would be based upon receipts, no trading, bartering, or getting anything for free scenarios but rather actually applying a dollar amount to all parts involved

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Recanizin' Flat-Buns Since 2001

Eric Nelson
Internet Sales Manager
Power Ford Valencia
nelsone@autonation.com

[This message has been edited by Chicken McNizzle (edited 07-17-2008).]

agree or disagree with his totals , one thing we can thank Dennis here for is that we have a maximum figure to keep in mind if you are thinking of a 3800 SC3 swap .

I didnt even notice the air intake until it was pointed out, I was too busy trying to figure out what he did with all the wires!

I still want to know the diameter of those axels, Im betting they are 1", the same as youd get building them yourself.

BTW, this is my engine as it sits today

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Thats a nice air intake system that you have there!

I am glad you like it and if you wanna use the same wrap I did to protect your intake tube from the heat, its CHEAP. Under the wrap is a 4 inch intake tube that goes into the 1/4 panel into a cone filter(CHEAP ricer filter at that). The wrap is just Retriflex(spelling) from Home Depot with some aluminuim tape to hold it down.

So you can understand why my intake is wrapped I will expain it to you so you can go on another Forum and repeat it like you know what you are talking about. Without the wrap on the intake, the bottom of the intake tube was getting up to 175* and the LS1 TB/adapter was getting to about 150*. After I wrapped the intake with the CHEAP material, the TB/adapter only gets to about 115* or so. Do you see what happened in this process? Let me explain it to you, the intake air temps dropped. Which mean? You already know the answer to that being your a turbo guy.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware:

I am not a 3800 guy, but I really like the look of this one. Clean, minimal wires, hoses and other destractions. While it takes alot of effort to install one in this manner, it does not cost much (unless you are paying someone to do it this way).

The cold air intake could be made from a couple of mandrel bends, coated on the outside with bed liner material and then painted... it will look better, still be insulated and relatively cheap to make.


There are hundreds of ways to complete any swap and all are the "right way" for some people. Just do it the way you want and stop tallying up the receipts... you will be happier not knowing.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I am not a 3800 guy, but I really like the look of this one. Clean, minimal wires, hoses and other destractions. While it takes alot of effort to install one in this manner, it does not cost much (unless you are paying someone to do it this way). The cold air intake could be made from a couple of mandrel bends, coated on the outside with bed liner material and then painted... it will look better, still be insulated and relatively cheap to make. There are hundreds of ways to complete any swap and all are the "right way" for some people. Just do it the way you want and stop tallying up the receipts... you will be happier not knowing.

Thanks for the compliment. My intake is made up of a 4 inch mandel pipe that in coupled to a SLP 85mm MAF then goes into some 4 inch ZZP tubing to the filter. I thought about sending the metal tube off to jethot to have it coated along with my crossover pipe. I had my cross over pipe wrapped but when I had it apart a month back I removed it and never re-wrapped it. Things get very hot in the engine bay and I try anything possible to keep the heat down. I am going to install a fan under the DRV vent next to suck as much heat out as possible.

5500 is far from the most you can spend. i'm right at 10,900 for my car to run 11.3's reliably. now i've got two turbos and whipple :P

150 to 115.. that's a fairly substantial drop..

I wish these enignes came with a sensor to read the air temp after the blower.. maybe in the LIM
You could get solid data on IC temp changes and other mods.. like all the skepticism about TB spacers and their effectiveness

Everybody calm down %50 or more of the posts on this thread could have been avoided if the thread had been named:
What a |NHRA Legal| 3800SC Swap Really Costs or
What a |show quality| 3800SC Swap Really Costs

Just a few more specific details could have kept some of the guys with smaller pocket books (like myself ) reading instead of posting
This is why I have decided not to post the "What an 81 Mazda B2000 with a 51 Oliver combine trans axle really cost ." thread in the of topic section

quote Originally posted by ignorant prodigy: 150 to 115.. that's a fairly substantial drop.. I wish these enignes came with a sensor to read the air temp after the blower.. maybe in the LIM You could get solid data on IC temp changes and other mods.. like all the skepticism about TB spacers and their effectiveness

I have thought of adding temp gauges before and after the IC core so I could see how well the core was working. I know Ron Vogel did a temp setup on his IC that so he cold monitor all the time.

Stephen,
I am putting 1/8NPT fittings in my Intercooler IN and OUTs so i can monitor in and out temps. I am going to be using a SPA guage with dual readouts so that i can use one guage. The guage is 400 bucks buts is well worth it. In my build thread i will show where the t-fittings are that i am soldering into the copper lines.

Dennis, I've learned a good deal from your thread here, not despite the fact that the responses it's elicited are quite different, but because the responses it's elicited are quite different.

Accordingly, thank you for originating this thread on the cost of your 3800SC engine swap. Your thorough and candid documentation of the costs you'd encountered for various parts, as well as the comments of others this thread has elicited regarding those costs, have been quite helpful to me.

quote Originally posted by project34: Dennis, I've learned a good deal from your thread here, not despite the fact that the responses it's elicited are quite different, but because the responses it's elicited are quite different. Accordingly, thank you for originating this thread on the cost of your 3800SC engine swap. Your thorough and candid documentation of the costs you'd encountered for various parts, as well as the comments of others this thread has elicited regarding those costs, have been quite helpful to me.

I believe that this forum was set up so that we could participate in the open exchange of ideas and opinions. If the post was helpful all the better. This is what it was intended for. As one who has been involved in both auto and stick 3800SC swaps , numerous ECM and now PCM program developments and over 30 other dfferent engine builds and replacements, hopefully there is something positve that I can contribute.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: hopefully there is something positve that I can contribute.

There is, has and hopefully will be more.

I am still scratching my *** trying to figure out how I spent $5,500 on my 3.4 DOHC swap.

I kept every recipt for parts, cleaners, paint and tools related to just the engine swap. Added them up, and was a bit taken back by the cost.

Truthfully though, There were a lot of double expenses, for example:
I went through 3, flowmaster 80 series mufflers before I got the trimming right.
Two sets of mandrel bent stainless steel exhaust tubing.
In total, I suspect my exhaust system cost nearly $1000 to make. But the parts that actually got used added up to about $400. It was a lot of trial and error.
I bought a brand new A/C compressor when the bearing on the one that came with the engine started to howel.
It took me several attempts to get the fuel lines right, I wound up using F-Body Flexible plastic lines, They are the easy "Factory looking" solution in my opinion.
I had to replace all the A/C hoses on the car because the origional compressor for the car contaminated the whole system.
The brake vacuum hose on the car cost $100 to make, the stainless tube was 30$ and the bender was 70$. It at least looks factory and professional.
There was a lot of money spent on cleaner, tools and paint too.
In the end, No one can tell that it is an engine swap because it appears so factory stock. Unless you know the engine never came in the car.





In my opinion, the cost would have been similar between the 3.4 DOHC swap and the L67. The only additional expenses being the flywheel and the engine mounts. The exhaust would have been a bit more difficult, but I don't see it being any more costly.

I think Dennis isn't fluffing the Cost. But he did put a lot of "Extras" in. As did I.
If I put the engine in without a refresh, didn't clean or paint anything, did a short "Y" shaped exhaust, didn't replace the entire A/C system... Yea, it would have only cost me $1000, and instead of taking 13 months to do, it would have been 1 month.
Heck, I did an engine swap that cost me a whopping $500. It was a 3.1 (Gen 2) with a 4T60. I only bought 4 parts for it. A fuel pump, Axles, a cherry bomb muffler and a catalytic converter. It ran great and was reliable too.