Well after acquiring some t-tops, I've decided to hack up my car. I've read all the posts I could find as well as reading through the instruction manual numerous times, I'm about to get started on it. I'm acquiring all the parts and stuff necessary to do the job hopefully next week. One thing i'm not sure about is what/how to make the spreader bars. I got some turnbuckles and some threaded rod that I put together on the donar car (just to see how it worked) and all it did was bend in the middle as I tried to "spread" the car. What's the best to use for these things? I really dont have any capability to weld up some stuff together, so i'm kinda stuck at what I can find.
For those that have accomplished this one, what did ya'all use?
Yeah my homemade spreaders kind of bowed in the middle too, but it was some psychological benefit that the windshield was not going to fold over before I could get the frame installed. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Some people don't even bother to use spreaders.
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08:48 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25186 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Well after acquiring some t-tops, I've decided to hack up my car. I've read all the posts I could find as well as reading through the instruction manual numerous times, I'm about to get started on it. I'm acquiring all the parts and stuff necessary to do the job hopefully next week. One thing i'm not sure about is what/how to make the spreader bars. I got some turnbuckles and some threaded rod that I put together on the donar car (just to see how it worked) and all it did was bend in the middle as I tried to "spread" the car. What's the best to use for these things? I really dont have any capability to weld up some stuff together, so i'm kinda stuck at what I can find.
For those that have accomplished this one, what did ya'all use?
If I may be totally blunt... you really shoud not even be considering a project like this if you do not know how to weld. I'm not suggesting that you need to be a master welder or anything of that nature, but you should at least be able to weld two pieces of metal together and be familiar with a standard welder. Welding is absolutely a sill that takes years and years and years to perfect. I can say that because I am absolutely not a professional welder. But I did buy a Lincoln Electric, a flux core, wire-fed, mig welder. Basically, it's like $250 bucks, and the flux and everything is stored in the core of the wire that's fed to the gun. You'll want to get a mask and welders gloves as well as a bunch of clamps. (and some wet rags)
Anyway... if you're going to be installing TTOPS, you're really going to want to do it right. C&C did the best they could within the budget that they could. But if you're going to install it yourself, you should be welding in bracing in the top (between the T-Tops, as well as below the car).
That's just me... I would seriously consider teaching yourself how to weld. It's not that difficult to teach yourself to be a functional welder.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: If I may be totally blunt... you really shoud not even be considering a project like this if you do not know how to weld. I'm not suggesting that you need to be a master welder or anything of that nature, but you should at least be able to weld two pieces of metal together and be familiar with a standard welder. Welding is absolutely a sill that takes years and years and years to perfect. I can say that because I am absolutely not a professional welder. But I did buy a Lincoln Electric, a flux core, wire-fed, mig welder. Basically, it's like $250 bucks, and the flux and everything is stored in the core of the wire that's fed to the gun. You'll want to get a mask and welders gloves as well as a bunch of clamps. (and some wet rags)
Anyway... if you're going to be installing TTOPS, you're really going to want to do it right. C&C did the best they could within the budget that they could. But if you're going to install it yourself, you should be welding in bracing in the top (between the T-Tops, as well as below the car).
That's just me... I would seriously consider teaching yourself how to weld. It's not that difficult to teach yourself to be a functional welder.
Hmmm.... Well... thanks for the advice. I'm in fact a fairly decent welder, no expert by any means, I just don't own any equipment right now, hence the statement no capability to weld anything together.
Maybe i'm not reading something right but you're saying to install t-tops you need to weld bracing in the top and bottom? I guess those hundreds of t-toped fieros around w/pop rivets holding them together are just an accident waiting to happen? Have you installed t-tops on a fiero? If so, i'd be curious to know where you welded your extra bracing. I'd be curious to know what the right way to do it is. It's all about learning to me.
I dont think you need to weld to do T-tops... I have no clue about welding, and I installed a set.. I too had the slightly bowing turnbuckle.. In my case.. I measured the distance between two spots (front and back) that would remain in the Roof after being cut. Basically took a cloth measuring tape (for clothing) and measured a path from the rear roofline to the front windshield. I "Braced" it with the cheasy turnbuckle setup. It bowed a bit, but before riveting, I re-measured those spots I marked, and imade sure everything was in the right place. Kinda a "in case it bows".. IT prob would help to jack the car from the center also. I did a thread on it.. May be worth a search.. I just posted a few of the tidbits i "learned" when doing it. Make sure you make a good template before you cut. Good luck!
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09:22 PM
IwannaIRM Member
Posts: 1607 From: Hot, hot Houston, TX Registered: Jul 2001
To answer your original question about the spreader bars. I took wood blocks and cut them at proper angles and blocked up the A pillar to the B pillar. Worked perfect.
As far as welding the t-tops there is no need for this. The t-top frame has enough structural support and there are more than enough holes for the rivets to make this a sound and very tight installation. If Pontiac or the NTSA would have deemed it unsafe with C&C's budget and installation method it would never have been sold as a "factory" installed option for the 88's.
I'm not a structural engineer by any means but my self-install has been working great for the last five years using the C&C installation method. My car hasn't sagged or buckled due to this installation. So, if I can install this setup correctly without welding and by following installation directions then I don't think that anyone else installing a set of t-tops that were specifically made for the Fiero into any other Fiero will have any problem either, as long as they follow the instructions and use the proper rivets.
Have fun with your install. Just remember, once you make that initial cut there's no turning back.
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09:23 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25186 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by 06GTO: Hmmm.... Well... thanks for the advice. I'm in fact a fairly decent welder, no expert by any means, I just don't own any equipment right now, hence the statement no capability to weld anything together.
Maybe i'm not reading something right but you're saying to install t-tops you need to weld bracing in the top and bottom? I guess those hundreds of t-toped fieros around w/pop rivets holding them together are just an accident waiting to happen? Have you installed t-tops on a fiero? If so, i'd be curious to know where you welded your extra bracing. I'd be curious to know what the right way to do it is. It's all about learning to me.
I took a junkyard ttop Fiero apart and sold the parts several years ago, and they are pop rivited like you said. The same goes for the job that C&C did to all the 2nd gen Trans Ams. When Fischer and Hurst couldn't meet the demand in the late 70s / 80-81, C&C also made TTOPS for the Trans Ams and Camaros. I've got one of them, and that's also installed with pop rivets. Although I think the design is awesome, I have to say that C&C did a sh1t job in all of their installs. Take the Trans Am for example... they cuta whole side off of the metal cage that the seat belt's shoulder belt bolts to. There's actually pictures of that on here from another Trans Am owner http://www.firebirdtransamp...info/ttops/candc.htm
But, ask pretty much any TTOP owner, and they'll tell you that they definitely have flex from the vehicle.
You don't HAVE to weld it... I guess I'm just being really anal... but if it was me, I would defnitely weld up some bracing. You an weld it under the H-plate that the TTOPS bolt into. You've got enough framing in front and behnd of the TTOPS that you could weld something rather solid in there, or at the very least, double up on the sheet metal. You could easily fit a few cut plates of 1/8th inch thick sheet metal up there. That's what I did to my T/A... I don't have an pictures to show you though.
If Pontiac or the NTSA would have deemed it unsafe with C&C's budget and installation method it would never have been sold as a "factory" installed option for the 88's.
Just so you know... this is the kind of thing that Pontiac and the NTSA deemed acceptable in the 80s:
Well after acquiring some t-tops, I've decided to hack up my car. I've read all the posts I could find as well as reading through the instruction manual numerous times, I'm about to get started on it. I'm acquiring all the parts and stuff necessary to do the job hopefully next week. One thing i'm not sure about is what/how to make the spreader bars. I got some turnbuckles and some threaded rod that I put together on the donar car (just to see how it worked) and all it did was bend in the middle as I tried to "spread" the car. What's the best to use for these things? I really dont have any capability to weld up some stuff together, so i'm kinda stuck at what I can find.
For those that have accomplished this one, what did ya'all use?
I have "loaner" home made spreaders that I loan out to people doing this, they have been used twice, once by myself and another forum member. all that is required is to pay shipping both ways, I ship UPS to you, you ship your prefered way back to me when your done. - I forgot to check them when returned last, so if your interested I will pop the tube end off and check.
Andrew
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10:41 PM
Jul 13th, 2008
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
You don't HAVE to weld it... I guess I'm just being really anal...
Well a convertible has no metal roof whatsoever, and convertible are allowed to be sold, so a T-top has to be better than that. In my opinion the 50 or so "pop rivets" are plenty strong enough. I didn't see the need for extra bracing.
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01:25 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25186 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Well a convertible has no metal roof whatsoever, and convertible are allowed to be sold, so a T-top has to be better than that. In my opinion the 50 or so "pop rivets" are plenty strong enough. I didn't see the need for extra bracing.
There's a big difference there. All convertibles are either designed from the very beginning to be convertibles, or they have additional bracing underneth the car to help support it. This is the case in EVERY case.
Cars with FULL steel frames don't need any additional bracing (usually), like for example, the 1970s Cadillac Eldorado. In this picture, I'm cutting the roof off of a 78 Eldorado which has a full frame, the car obviously didn't collapse. But, if you were to do that on say a stock hard top Chevy Camaro, it would completely cave in on itself.
What I'm saying is... you can get away with it on the Fiero because it's a steel space frame. Although it needs the additional bracing for the roof, it won't cave in because of the type of frame that it is. That said, if I were going to do it, I'd want to do it right and not half assed and I'd probably weld in some support beams. Ask anyone who has a TTOP Fiero if their car has some flex to it. If they say they don't they're lying! hah...
Those are the ones I used.. I used the term "cheasy" in my orig post because compared to the hunking steel spreader CNC used, this way of spreading is well.. cheasy..LOL. NO disprespect to Holiday.. Literally, find a pic of the orig CNC spreader.. It was this huge steel contraption. Holiday's will bow a bit, but if you make sure your measurements are all good, you'll be ok. They held mine well. Also, he's really cool with loaning them out.. Saves you from having to make them
quote
Originally posted by Back On Holiday:
I have "loaner" home made spreaders that I loan out to people doing this, they have been used twice, once by myself and another forum member. all that is required is to pay shipping both ways, I ship UPS to you, you ship your prefered way back to me when your done. - I forgot to check them when returned last, so if your interested I will pop the tube end off and check.
Andrew
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12:02 PM
IwannaIRM Member
Posts: 1607 From: Hot, hot Houston, TX Registered: Jul 2001
Honestly that looks like a quality control issue. But I am glad I didn't own the car that pic came from.
That's not a quality control issue. ALL 2nd Gen Camaros / Firebirds that C&C got their hands on, had this same work done. That picture came from a Camaro that had C&C ttops. My 81 Trans Am has the same C&C ttops and the seat belt mounting cage was cut exactly like this. That's considered acceptable...
What I'm saying is... you can get away with it on the Fiero because it's a steel space frame. Although it needs the additional bracing for the roof, it won't cave in because of the type of frame that it is. That said, if I were going to do it, I'd want to do it right and not half assed and I'd probably weld in some support beams. Ask anyone who has a TTOP Fiero if their car has some flex to it. If they say they don't they're lying! hah...
Actually, no. The steel "space frame" is basicly the same as a unibody car, so you can't just cut the roof off of it (it *will* cave in). The difference is that the body panels are not an integral part of the frame (& it's built a little stronger than most unibodies). However, the T-Top conversion adds enough center support to keep the car from collapsing. Flex? Yeah, you're going to get flex even if you add underbody bracing. Edit: For the OP, you can use your flimsy spreaders if you support the car under the rockers & make sure you measure everything carefully & repeadedly. Paul
[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 07-13-2008).]
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04:50 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25186 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Actually, no. The steel "space frame" is basicly the same as a unibody car, so you can't just cut the roof off of it (it *will* cave in). The difference is that the body panels are not an integral part of the frame (& it's built a little stronger than most unibodies). However, the T-Top conversion adds enough center support to keep the car from collapsing. Flex? Yeah, you're going to get flex even if you add underbody bracing. Edit: For the OP, you can use your flimsy spreaders if you support the car under the rockers & make sure you measure everything carefully & repeadedly. Paul
Well, I'm not arguing per say, but the steel space frame is no where near like a Unibody car. The Fiero's space frame is actually significantly more rigid. In a unibody car, it gets a lt of it's support from things like the roof panel, and the quarter panels and fenders. Even the windshield in many cases.
You CAN actually cut the entire roof off a Fiero and it will not cave in. I have actually done this. Although, it will flex like crazy and will eventually begin to bend, hence my point that if you're going to do it yourself, why not put a little extra effort in it and do it professionally rather than the ghetto way that C&C did all of their jobs.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Well, I'm not arguing per say, but the steel space frame is no where near like a Unibody car. The Fiero's space frame is actually significantly more rigid. In a unibody car, it gets a lt of it's support from things like the roof panel, and the quarter panels and fenders. Even the windshield in many cases.
No? Both are made of stamped steel panels spot welded into place. Both have sub-frame components that bolt to it to mount the suspension peices. Both have front upper steel panels to re-inforce it & to mount the radiator, & fenders & other body panels. (the fenders are not a structural component on unibodies unless they're welded on - which most are not) Both have rockers (stamped steel) that are the main frame component on the sides. The only difference is that the Fiero has upper frame rails in the back ('cause it dosen't have steel 1/4 panels welded in place), & it has twin-panel sides on the roof ('cause it dosen't have a steel roof welded in). It also has the much larger center tunnel which is the only thing that makes it more rigid than a unibody. Even the windshield re-inforces the structure the same on both.
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You CAN actually cut the entire roof off a Fiero and it will not cave in. I have actually done this. Although, it will flex like crazy and will eventually begin to bend, hence my point that if you're going to do it yourself, why not put a little extra effort in it and do it professionally rather than the ghetto way that C&C did all of their jobs.
Cut the roof off & take the doors off & drive it & it WILL collapse in on itself. As I said above the center tunnel is the only thing that makes it more rigid. Paul
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09:44 PM
Jul 14th, 2008
Mister Member
Posts: 1975 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Aug 2004
I'm sure you've seen my thread. Yes there is a slight bend in the spreader as it's "working" Good luck
Personally Id just measure about 15 times, and if needed put a jack under the center and raise until I got my measurement back. I dont see the spreaders really having enough material to effect enough force.
However reading your thread has moved my desire for finding a set of T-tops from a 6 to a 9. I swear im a friggin idiot for selling my 86SE T-top. But now at least I know its not that hard to convert.
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 07-14-2008).]
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01:05 AM
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
Personally Id just measure about 15 times, and if needed put a jack under the center and raise until I got my measurement back. I dont see the spreaders really having enough material to effect enough force.
However reading your thread has moved my desire for finding a set of T-tops from a 6 to a 9. I swear im a friggin idiot for selling my 86SE T-top. But now at least I know its not that hard to convert.
the spreaders arent really meant to "Push" apart the opening, the instructions say to install them before removing the roof, they are meant to "Hold" the opening to the correct measurement, now you might have to adjust them slightly to get your measurement precise but thats all that should be needed. and yes, measurement is not redundant doing the T-Top conversion
