This is old news but read on.
After many years of production GM discontinued using the 3800SC engine in the Grand Prix, Park Ave, Impala, & Bonneville for the 2007 model year. The good news is that crate engines will be available for a while to come. I often wondered why the 3800SC engine was dropped and did some research. It seems that the LZ4 3900 V6 has replaced it as it can make almost the same power in N/A form- 240 HP and 240 ft lbs of torque. The 3900 is less expensive to produce ( as it saves GM the supercharger cost ) but its new use also removes a rock solid 90* V6 from GM's offering that has gobs of performance potential.
The 3900 LZ4 shares the 60^ V6 engine design and has very decent power numbers but it has VVT or active fuel management and ETC which IMO will be difficult to get operational. The other current issue bolt in swap choice is the compact LS4 V8 engine but it too has VVT and the same issues might present themselves.
Just as the 3.4L, 4.9L, 3800SC, & 3.4L TDC were once the hot swap items now it seems we have newer choices like the ones above and also the Ecotec. The knowledge base on these new engine swaps is not quite developed as yet but as more of them are up and running perhaps they will become popular. I'd like to see more attempts at doing LS4, 3900 and Ecotec swaps posted on this forum. Its the wave of the future it seems.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Hmm, turbo the 3900!

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Hmm, turbo the 3900!

I doubt if you will ever see the 3900 achieve the performance levels that the 3800SC has. I don't believe that the 3900 60* V6 is anywhere near as strong as the 3800 engine is. You can certainly get more HP w a turbo but how far you can go with the 3900 60* engine remains to be seen.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

No im pretty sure its just GM being self destructive. They seem to kill any good thing they have going for themselves. Maybe they think its more interesting, never know if they're going under the next day or not.

Do a search on Joseph Upson .he has a twin turbo 3900 that i think is in the testing stages .as far as the difficulty of swapping in a VVT motor , fiero engine swappers are going to have to start learning to use the factory electronics that came with the motor instead of trying to tie in to the fieros ancient electronics .when you use the stock computers and harnesses , it all becomes plug and play .the other bonus is that most new ECM 's are designed to run a variety of engines , it was very easy for my stock ecm to adapt to turbocharging my 2.2 ecotec .later i added HP tuners to the mix and i have been fine tuning the setup .

quote Originally posted by wftb: Do a search on Joseph Upson he has a twin turbo 3900 that i think is in the testing stages .as far as the difficulty of swapping in a VVT motor , fiero engine swappers are going to have to start learning to use the factory electronics that came with the motor instead of trying to tie in to the fieros ancient electronics .when you use the stock computers and harnesses , it all becomes plug and play .the other bonus is that most new ECM 's are designed to run a variety of engines , it was very easy for my stock ecm to adapt to turbocharging my 2.2 ecotec .later i added HP tuners to the mix and i have been fine tuning the setup .

I am aware of Joes project and eagerly await the road test and track results. As for swapping the most modern engines into Fieros, I would agree that engine swappers will need to start using all of the hardware that these new generation engines require. This will mean accelerator pedal modules (instead of throttle cables) fuel pumps that supply the returnless rails that work under PCM control etc. However, some inputs like fuel tank pressure and traction monitoring may be required for the engine to run correctly. Additionally the headache of getting the active fuel management function to work and preventing the traction lock from shutting down the engine on wheel spin are other issues. These new generation engines are quite complex and before you know it OBDIII will be the norm.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Yep.

Hopefully SEMA SAN and SEMA in general will wake up and help us out with these issues. I'm sure aftermarket parts manufacturers would like to sell newer engines as well. (broaden their market beyond muscle cars.)

I kinda doubt engine swapping and hot-rodding will die in the future. I just think it'll be more like overclocking-, or extreme overclocking computers-, and/or other hardware and will require some programming/hacking/software skills/ingenuity in addition to metal fabrication skills.

If people can hack i.e.: Ipods, Iphones, Roomba's, etc. to get them to do what they want I'm sure people will figure out how to hack modern and future engines.

If not for performance, then for gas mileage. With Ford's ECOboost technology, and other car manufacturers following suits, (200,000+ cars will be built with factory turbos), Direct injection, FSI, and other fuel savings/power enhancements. I'm sure some people, who own older cars, will want to upgrade the engine (incl. dash, ECM, drive by wire, etc.) bits and run their old cars a while longer.

Look how Linux hacking gave older computers a new Lease on life.
Heck $299 laptops (Asus eee) and $199 desktops (Asus, and others) wouldn't be possible without Linux.

Hey Dennis
I'm running ETC on a 2006 GP 3800SC in my 87GT with no problem

Not to be nit-picking, But you have the engines a little off.
The LZ4 is the 3500 to replace the 3800 N.A. (it is based off the 3900)
The LZ9 is the 3900 with V.V.T. and variable resonance intake
The LZ8 is the same as the LZ9 except it adds the Active Fuel Management (previously called Displacement on Demand) and power is slightly lower.
The LY7 is the 3600 DOHC which replaces the 3800SC

Quote from GM's engine information website:
"Production of the renowned 3800 V6 engine is unofficially scheduled to cease before summer's end of 2008. Originally GM had set this date for January 1, 1999, however due to the vast number of complaints from both investors and customers because of the popularity and reliability of the engine, the date was extended. At the end of production, the LZ4 3500 OHV V6 will replace the naturally aspirated 3800 applications, and the LY7 3600 DOHC V6 will replace the supercharged 3800 applications."

I am very surprised that GM has stopped this engine. The 3.8L V-6 and the SBC are about the most historically reliable engines GM has. They re-tooled the SBC into the LS series, You would have thought doing the same thing with the 3800/3800SC would have made a lighter more powerful engine and kept the reliability at the historically high levels of the previous versioned engines.

I said this was coming a long time ago, and it really makes sense despite the long history of the 3.8/3800 to focus on something that from a performance, weight and packaging standpoint appears to be all around better.

I doubt there is any sustainable reason to think the 3900 or either of the two 3500 engines VVT and non VVT would be any less dependable than the 2.8, 3.1 and up, since it is basically the same motor with a larger bore or in the VVT motors slightly larger block. A friend of mine on another forum who is a machinist is making bearing sleeves to allow use of the non VVT camshafts or you can send your cam out to Delta Cams and have the journals resized to fit for about $100 to eliminate the VVT completely. Most of the common parts are still interchangeable all the way back down to the 2.8, even if they don't fit perfectly correct they still bolt up, like the cylinder heads for example which have a little larger surface area and bigger valves that would not clear the smaller bore of the 2.8 but will still bolt to the engine.

The crankshaft is a steel forging now with 2.25" crank pins that's strong I hope and there are other technological improvements that suggest it was well thought out. The only problem GM had with previous similar motors 3400, 3100 was poorly designed intake gaskets that would leak after a time and problems with piston #6. They fixed that.

In 2006 an HO version of the 3900 was displayed at SEMA rated at 270 HP and 259 lb/ft, the 3.6 L is making just over 300 HP both without forced induction although I would be more inclined to question the reliability of the 3.6L given its aluminum construction and the history of the Northstar and headgasket failures from normal use over 100k.

It's just old technology making way for the new, finance and gas prices are going to have a trememdous influence on that now. You will likely see more boosted options now in an effort to achieve high horsepower and fuel economy in the same package. Fiero owners seem to be creatures of habit resistant to change. The new iron block 60 degree V6 motors are better than the earlier 60 degree engines and I'm confident they are more dependable as well, (except for that variable displacement motor) and just as dependable as the 3800, time will tell.

In a few months I'll have a chance to return home and beat on the 3900 some more to find out.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-09-2008).]

The N/A 3.9 with direct injection in the new CTS makes 300hp, so you can probably guess why the 3800 and even the LS4 are being discontinued.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: The N/A 3.9 with direct injection in the new CTS makes 300hp, so you can probably guess why the 3800 and even the LS4 are being discontinued.

And by 3.9, you mean 3.6, right . The LLT 3.6 makes over 300 hp and is sold around the world. The L67 and the L32 were only sold in North America (the Holden Monaro had the L67 for a little while). One of the reasons it is being discontinued is to increase global 3.6L production, and new 3.0L DI production. Another reason, is there's only one vehicle with a 3800 in it, this year (LaCrosse/Allure has it, 3900 is standard in the Lucerne now). Finally, the 3500's and 3900's are quite compact, very smooth, and VERY strong. They are also E85 capable, VVT, AFM, drive by wire, and (I believe) can be mated to the 6 speed automatic. They have better oiling, and better provisions for incorporating newer technologies than the 3800 had (which is now a 20 year old engine, with little more than refinement done to the engine, which is why it still only makes 200 hp, and trails well behind the competition in power and torque). The initial 3500's (in the first year Maibu's and G6's don't have any 'extra' features like VVT).

You could say evolution killed the true SBC, but then we ended up with the Gen 3 and 4 small blocks (likewise, the LS engines, and the new generation Vortecs). We get the Ecotecs, Northstar (over the Caddy HT engines), the HF V6 lines, and such. Likewise, be considered lucky if the OHV V6's continue at all. They're scheduled to become extinct in new cars over the next few years.

Along these lines, the old 350 got turned into the amazing 4.3L V6, which somehow still gets put in production fullsize halfton pickups, yet they haven't made a V6/90 version of the LS to replace it. Sure, the /60 is more compact, in theory, but if the LS4 can pass emissions, then a V6 version of it would be stupid to not offer, and soon!

quote Originally posted by JTUOIT: And by 3.9, you mean 3.6, right . The LLT 3.6 makes over 300 hp and is sold around the world. The L67 and the L32 were only sold in North America (the Holden Monaro had the L67 for a little while). One of the reasons it is being discontinued is to increase global 3.6L production, and new 3.0L DI production. Another reason, is there's only one vehicle with a 3800 in it, this year (LaCrosse/Allure has it, 3900 is standard in the Lucerne now). Finally, the 3500's and 3900's are quite compact, very smooth, and VERY strong. They are also E85 capable, VVT, AFM, drive by wire, and (I believe) can be mated to the 6 speed automatic. They have better oiling, and better provisions for incorporating newer technologies than the 3800 had (which is now a 20 year old engine, with little more than refinement done to the engine, which is why it still only makes 200 hp, and trails well behind the competition in power and torque). The initial 3500's (in the first year Maibu's and G6's don't have any 'extra' features like VVT). You could say evolution killed the true SBC, but then we ended up with the Gen 3 and 4 small blocks (likewise, the LS engines, and the new generation Vortecs). We get the Ecotecs, Northstar (over the Caddy HT engines), the HF V6 lines, and such. Likewise, be considered lucky if the OHV V6's continue at all. They're scheduled to become extinct in new cars over the next few years.

Blah, yes. Numbers and me never got along too well. Too many of 'em. Agree on the OHV engines, too. GM and Chrysler are pretty much the only ones left making them.

Im amazed that more people dont use Megasquirt to control engine swaps here.

But yes the ability to control VVT, ETC, Coil On Plug, and many new features are all being worked on so they work with production megasquirt systems.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Along these lines, the old 350 got turned into the amazing 4.3L V6, which somehow still gets put in production fullsize halfton pickups, yet they haven't made a V6/90 version of the LS to replace it. Sure, the /60 is more compact, in theory, but if the LS4 can pass emissions, then a V6 version of it would be stupid to not offer, and soon!

Amazing is debateable, the 4.3L is available in 4 different vehicles for 09 all rated at 195 hp and 260 lb/ft, not much at all for the added weight and one more reason to do away with at least one of two moderate performing 90 degree V6 engines. The 3900/3500 VVT and 3.6L are the upgraded V6 representatives for all those offered by GM for cars and mid size SUVs, the cylinder heads were said to have been designed after the LS1 heads for the OHV VVT motors and they share the same cylinder bore of the early LS1 and guess what?

The 4.3L is next on the chopping block because GM is filling the old 4.3L roll with the 3.7L L6 with 242/242 and the 4.2L L6 with 285/276 both with aluminum blocks and cylinder heads. It just doesn't make sense to do anything else but get rid of the old iron head motors. Fiero owners on this forum have been fighting the aluminum head fwd engine transition tooth and nail despite how close they are to some of the aspired performance levels in their stock form and how easy it would be with a few small modifications to push them well above 200hp with little more than mild head work, a cam and headers. The 3400 V6 bone stock puts down over 320 hp to the wheels as demonstrated on the dyno by a member of the Z24 forum on 10 psi with water/meth injection in a cavalier and ran 12.5 in the quarter.

The non VVT 3500 has the same cylinder bore as the 3.6 DOHC and near exact same compression height, you can swap pistons in those engines and turn the 3500 into a high compression performance monster (Superdave on 60 degree forum is making 273 whp with his 3500 with stock pistons) far out doing the same swap between the 3.4 DOHC and the iron head 3.4 this has been performed in. Further more the 3500 with exhaust manifolds removed weighs about 30 lbs less than the 2.8L.

Let those old slugs go and welcome the new technology, it will only take the Fiero swaps to the next level of sophistication and performance, lets face it, stock non supercharged imports are running circles around the old 3800SC and the ones that aren't are in cars that weigh about 3700 lbs to keep them form flying off the road.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Amazing is debateable, the 4.3L is available in 4 different vehicles for 09 all rated at 195 hp and 260 lb/ft, not much at all for the added weight and one more reason to do away with at least one of two moderate performing 90 degree V6 engines. The 3900/3500 VVT and 3.6L are the upgraded V6 representatives for all those offered by GM for cars and mid size SUVs, the cylinder heads were said to have been designed after the LS1 heads for the OHV VVT motors and they share the same cylinder bore of the early LS1 and guess what? The 4.3L is next on the chopping block because GM is filling the old 4.3L roll with the 3.7L L6 with 242/242 and the 4.2L L6 with 285/276 both with aluminum blocks and cylinder heads. It just doesn't make sense to do anything else but get rid of the old iron head motors. Fiero owners on this forum have been fighting the aluminum head fwd engine transition tooth and nail despite how close they are to some of the aspired performance levels in their stock form and how easy it would be with a few small modifications to push them well above 200hp with little more than mild head work, a cam and headers. The 3400 V6 bone stock puts down over 320 hp to the wheels as demonstrated on the dyno by a member of the Z24 forum on 10 psi with water/meth injection in a cavalier and ran 12.5 in the quarter. The non VVT 3500 has the same cylinder bore as the 3.6 DOHC and near exact same compression height, you can swap pistons in those engines and turn the 3500 into a high compression performance monster (Superdave on 60 degree forum is making 273 whp with his 3500 with stock pistons) far out doing the same swap between the 3.4 DOHC and the iron head 3.4 this has been performed in. Further more the 3500 with exhaust manifolds removed weighs about 30 lbs less than the 2.8L. Let those old slugs go and welcome the new technology, it will only take the Fiero swaps to the next level of sophistication and performance, lets face it, stock non supercharged imports are running circles around the old 3800SC and the ones that aren't are in cars that weigh about 3700 lbs to keep them form flying off the road.

I agree with just about everything, but the I5/I6 replacing the 4.3L. The I6 is quite long, and is slated to go down when the GMT360's end production (Trailblazers, Envoys, etc). It also doesn't get any better fuel economy (rated or real world) than the 5.3 V8 in the same applications. The I5 costs more to produce than the 4.3L, as well. V6 trucks aren't big sellers at all, anymore (now that trucks have grown so much), so I would expect the 4.3 to soldier on, or be replaced by the 4.8 V8 with AFM at the bottom of the ladder, similar to what Ford did with the new F150 (the 4.8 costs a bit more than a 4.3, but nowhere near the costs of the I5/I6, and gets the same fuel economy as the V6).

What I've been told for a V6 replacement (if they continue to have a V6 base after refresh), so far, is that either the 3.6L or the 3.9L will be incorporated into a refresh (cost reasons). I don't even know how much future the I4/I5 Vortecs have, as GM's compact trucks everywhere else uses a combination of smaller 4 cylinder, 3.6L OHC V6, I4 diesel, or V6 diesel.

Otherwise, the newer generation of 60 degree V6's are very good engines, with tons of potential, as you stated.

quote Let those old slugs go and welcome the new technology, it will only take the Fiero swaps to the next level of sophistication and performance, lets face it, stock non supercharged imports are running circles around the old 3800SC and the ones that aren't are in cars that weigh about 3700 lbs to keep them form flying off the road.

Joe: I guess that you've summed it up best but the complexities of installing and tuning the newer engines wil become more and more challenging for the home enthusiast. In the past we didn't have to deal with VVT/AFM, ETC, Accelerator pedal modules Gas tank pressure sensors, PCM controlled fuel pumps and now these features have become standard. Now us engine swappers will need to work with more sophistication, but as this happens our swaps will also become increasingly more expensive and time costly.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Joe: I guess that you've summed it up best but the complexities of installing and tuning the newer engines wil become more and more challenging for the home enthusiast. In the past we didn't have to deal with VVT/AFM, ETC, Accelerator pedal modules Gas tank pressure sensors, PCM controlled fuel pumps and now these features have become standard. Now us engine swappers will need to work with more sophistication, but as this happens our swaps will also become increasingly more expensive and time costly.

True but, at some point we'll all need to retire the Fiero and swaps and move on to just modifying the new cars as is. It's kind of scary to think of the technology going into them now, they are almost non disposable given the value of the equipment they contain, almost like a small aircraft on wheels, on-star can track you, unlock your door, give you info on a diagnostic problem going on in your car! Before long the government, courts and other, will be able track your travel and shut off your engine until you update your tag or get your license reinstated. The computer already makes the final decision in how much power the engine produces relative to your throttle input on an electric throttle car and we all know that a cable operated throttle is far more dependable and less expensive than an ETC. Who knows what little extras that aren't mentioned are tacked on to those bills governing automobile requirements by the govt. in addition to increased fuel economy, that are actually efforts to control your movement.

When gas really gets scarce they may incorporate the ability to shut your car down based on the first letter of your last name and require you to car pool on a given day. If you think it sounds silly, I bet most felt the same way about the phasers and little walkie talkies on Star Trek 40 yrs ago. Just remember I said it when it starts happening.

by Amazing I meant that this is the engine most overdue for replacement, and I'm amazed that they haven't. Still, no other V6 can equal it for making torque between 500-2800 rpm. Not even Ford's split-port 4.2.

I'm personally a little troubled by GM's seemingly rapid switchover in technology on their new line of V6's. There is something to be said for rock solid reliability. My 3800 Series II NA in my Intrigue has provided me with 109,000 trouble free miles other than requiring a water pump at around 70,000 miles which I blame more on the Dex-Cool issue than the design of the pump itself (the Dex-cool was flushed out at that time and I now use the yellow Peak Global extended life formula). Oh yea, and a serpentine belt and idler pully which I replaced as a preventative measure. All in all less than $100 in parts over 109,000 miles.

Given GM's track record with newer engine designs they almost always seem to have a "fatal design flaw." Quad 4's and their head gaskets that you're lucky to get 60,000 miles out of....early Northstars and their head gaskets and oil burning and leak issues....the 3100 and 3400 V6 series intake gaskets....I could go on and on. The newer engine that they seemed to "get right" is the Ecotec but that is probably more due to the main development of the engine by Opel rather than GM's U.S. "cut corners to save money" operations.

Basically I wouldn't mind seeing the new engines eventually replace the 3800, after maybe they were produced in parallel for a few years to make sure the new engines were as trouble free as the "ancient" 3800, but if I was buying a new Impala and had the choice of a 3800 and the choice of one of the newer engines right now I'd get the 3800 because I know odds are that it would last me 100,000+ miles without issue. With the new motors it's more of a gamble in my opinion until GM plays their game of "finally getting it right" after a few years and a few revisions to a new design.

[This message has been edited by kslish (edited 07-10-2008).]

Oh come on. In all fairness the LS family of V8s has NO "fatal design flaw", and the only one for the straight 6 is it's length.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: by Amazing I meant that this is the engine most overdue for replacement, and I'm amazed that they haven't. Still, no other V6 can equal it for making torque between 500-2800 rpm. Not even Ford's split-port 4.2.

I'm not sure about that, the 3900 is cammed for torque and high end performance, if it had a camshaft with the characteristics of the 4.3L looking at its current power curve it is reasonable to suspect it would at a minimum equal it and put down a broader torque curve overall with the help of the VVT. Look at the dyno sheet and remember there is an HO version with 270 HP and 259 ft-lbs. Power to weight and fuel economy wise the 4.3L falls short. The spec sheet is for the reduced powered variable displacement version.
http://media.gm.com/us/powe...pala_combination.pdf

http://media.gm.com/us/powe...V6_LU3_Silverado.pdf

http://60degreev6.com/forum...wimage.php?i=296&c=5

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-10-2008).]

fuel economy? My '89 s-10 4.3/auto got over 30 mpg on the interstate. That's so good I kept having to prove it. And that was with over 220,000 miles on it.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Oh come on. In all fairness the LS family of V8s has NO "fatal design flaw", and the only one for the straight 6 is it's length.

The 97 and 98 LS engines had a pretty serious issue w/ burning oil. So much so that there's alot of ppl that I know will not buy an LS from those years.

quote Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98: Im amazed that more people dont use Megasquirt to control engine swaps here. But yes the ability to control VVT, ETC, Coil On Plug, and many new features are all being worked on so they work with production megasquirt systems.

Because I can do more with a 7730 GM ecm than I can with the megasquirt. Megasquirt will get there eventually, but There's already guys hacking hard on the newer GM ecm's to the point that they will have one of the newer ones with canbus fully hacked like the 7730 and then that will be the new king. I looked very carefully at megasquirt, I really wanted to use it, but I dont like a bunch of their design choices that simply just miss what I get with a 7730 right now. I hope they get better and keep working on it I love the idea of megasquirt and why it was designed.

quote Originally posted by timgray: Because I can do more with a 7730 GM ecm than I can with the megasquirt. Megasquirt will get there eventually, but There's already guys hacking hard on the newer GM ecm's to the point that they will have one of the newer ones with canbus fully hacked like the 7730 and then that will be the new king. I looked very carefully at megasquirt, I really wanted to use it, but I dont like a bunch of their design choices that simply just miss what I get with a 7730 right now. I hope they get better and keep working on it I love the idea of megasquirt and why it was designed.

I don't believe that any aftermarket PCM can do as good a job of controlling your engine as a OEM GM unit can. With the GM unit everything is there and you have the onboard self diagnostics as well. If you are doing one of the high tech engine swaps the aftermarket units can't handle ETC. Also compare the price around $100 vs an average of $1000-$3,000.
I don't see what the fascination with the Megasquirt is since the OEM unit does everything that it does and more at a lower price.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Noone should buy those years anyway. They had the perimeter-bolt valve covers, the piston skirts weren't coated, and the cams and cranks didn't get improved until after that either. But the first years always have some bugs. The wrong piston rings isn't a design flaw.