Looking for some advice, my son’s engine blew up yesterday on his 1987 6 cyl. automatic Fiero. The questions that I have are:

1. What is the best/most logical engine that I should look for to replace his?
2. Will I also need to replace the transmission or will it hook up to the replacement engine?
3. Will the wiring harnesses match up or will I need to rewire the engine?
4. Will I need to replace the computer or will it just need a new chip?
5. What should I be asking the junk yard when selecting an engine?
6. Price????

Any other oh by the ways that I may have not thought of would also be a big help. Thanks in advance. Tom

quote Originally posted by TSpidel: Looking for some advice, my son’s engine blew up yesterday on his 1987 6 cyl. automatic Fiero. The questions that I have are: 1. What is the best/most logical engine that I should look for to replace his? 2. Will I also need to replace the transmission or will it hook up to the replacement engine? 3. Will the wiring harnesses match up or will I need to rewire the engine? 4. Will I need to replace the computer or will it just need a new chip? 5. What should I be asking the junk yard when selecting an engine? 6. Price???? Any other oh by the ways that I may have not thought of would also be a big help. Thanks in advance. Tom

Read this thread...all of it....

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/041835.html

quote Originally posted by TSpidel: Looking for some advice, my son’s engine blew up yesterday on his 1987 6 cyl. automatic Fiero. The questions that I have are: 1. What is the best/most logical engine that I should look for to replace his? 2. Will I also need to replace the transmission or will it hook up to the replacement engine? 3. Will the wiring harnesses match up or will I need to rewire the engine? 4. Will I need to replace the computer or will it just need a new chip? 5. What should I be asking the junk yard when selecting an engine? 6. Price???? Any other oh by the ways that I may have not thought of would also be a big help. Thanks in advance. Tom

The short answers to your six numbered questions are:

1. Use a pushrod 60-degree 3.4L V6, to which you will be bolting on the Fiero engine's accessories.
   
2. You don't need to replace the transmission.
   
3. Reuse the Fiero's existing wiring harness.
   
4. You don't need to get either (I didn't), but I would guess that PFF member, Darth Fiero of www.gmtuners.com (a.k.a. "Sinister Performance"), could burn a better chip for you.
   
5. Ask for a 3.4L engine from a `93 to `95 Camaro or Firebird, if you don't buy a 3.4L crate engine.
   
6. I think the 3.4L crate engines run from around $1700 to $1900 or so. I don't know what a complete junkyard engine would cost, as I started with only a bare block 3.4L (i.e., a lump of metal with no moving parts).

All the "Oh-by-the-way" issues you'd also asked about probably are covered in the thread randye mentioned above. Of all those issues, the one which probably caused me the most trepidation (unwarranted because I didn't know any better) was the need to switch the starter from one side of the 3.4L block to the other side. I later learned it's actually no big deal to do that.

Aside from replacing your son's 2.8L engine with another one, this 3.4L swap probably is the easiest swap around.

Before I'd completed my 3.4L engine swap, I thought it was "rocket science," and just about everyone I had talked to locally mistakenly thought so as well.

In hindsight, my misgivings (and everyone else's locally) over my 3.4L swap are funny now, but they certainly weren't funny then. At that time, I didn't even know about Pennock's Fiero Forum, or any of its members who justifiably could have reassured me confidently: "Been there. Done that. It's not rocket science."

Good luck with your project!

motor swap suggestions really depend on how much work you want to do... and what you feel comfortable doing.

Thanks everyone for your help and advice. In the build up article it talked about using many of the old fiero parts off the origional engine. I understand that this particular engine will look more like the origional when re installed. My question is that I am wondering if there is another engine that would be better for fuel economy than the 3.4? We have invested alot of money fixing this car up but we were never able to get the engine to run worth a darn. The fuel miliage was horrible (less than ten mph) how much better will the 3.4 be?

http://www.fierofocus.com/a...0Collins%2012-00.htm

Folks:

For what its worth this is what the ARI engine has ( note the camshaft) and see info on the camshaft here: http://www.engine-parts.com/GMV6/28camspecs.html

Performance 2.8-3.1L Stroker Kit (note heads & transmission info*)
* For Manual Transmission vehicles, you may purchase a new flywheel ($170.00) or neutrally balance your current flywheel if necessary. All 1988 and Newer 60-degree V6 engines should come from the factory with a neutrally balanced flywheel. For automatics, a new neutrally balanced flexplate is available for $54.95. Please indicate cast iron or aluminum heads when ordering. Kit is available for engines with either type of cylinder heads.

Includes:

* 2.8-3.1L Basic Stroker Kit (Includes Stroker Crankshaft, Pistons, Rings, Main Bearings, Rod Bearings, and Connecting Rods)
* Hypereutectic Pistons
* Phase 2 Camshaft & Lifter Kit
* Clevite Cam Bearings
* Brass Freeze Plugs
* Roller Tip Rocker Arms (1.52 ratio)
* Fel-Pro Complete Gasket Set
* Double-Roller Timing Set
* Stock Oil Pump
* Head Bolts
* Stock Pushrod Set
* Timing Chain Dampner
* INCLUDES SHIPPING COST to continental 48 USA States
You Choose Oversize (020, 030, 040, 060)http://www.engine-parts.com/GMV6/28camspecs.html

With the cam they claim 165 HP on their site, but it might be a good way to go if you can do a rebuild and want to keep things looking stock.

Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by D2inDFW (edited 06-24-2008).]

I am willing to bet that the 25hp you would gain in that setup, would barely be noticeable.

I would consider doing a 4.9 Cadillac swap, complete with the 4 speed auto Cadillac transmission. The swap is inexpensive, the drivetrain is nearly bulletproof, it nearly doubles the power to the ground, and you can expect 25 - 32 MPG. Your post says that you have spent a lot of time and money to fix up the car, so now you have the opportunity to give it some Kahunas as well.

I have an 88 Formula with the above drivetrain, and I wish I had not waited as long as I did - I thought about for about 5 years too long.

no mater what engine you use, put a overdrive auto trans in it. use a 3800 with out the superchrager. buy the whole car to get the driveline and computer. I have gotten 35 mpg with a old 3.8 and 4t40. my 97 lumina 3100/4t60E gets 31+ at 70 on CC. If you want good mpg, more power (160) less weight, modern ecm just use a 3100. its a engine swap just like a 3800, 4.9,4.6,sbc. just rebuilding the 2.8 will make it run good, putting the overdrive trany in it will let it fly and get good mpg.

quote Originally posted by TSpidel: Looking for some advice, my son’s engine blew up yesterday on his 1987 6 cyl. automatic Fiero. The questions that I have are: 1. What is the best/most logical engine that I should look for to replace his? 2. Will I also need to replace the transmission or will it hook up to the replacement engine? 3. Will the wiring harnesses match up or will I need to rewire the engine? 4. Will I need to replace the computer or will it just need a new chip? 5. What should I be asking the junk yard when selecting an engine? 6. Price???? Any other oh by the ways that I may have not thought of would also be a big help. Thanks in advance. Tom

For gas mileage, price and ease of installation, get a used Fiero engine. If you go to a swap shop you can generally pick up a good running engine for about $200.

Anything else and the dollars will add up. If you do go to a different engine type, the 93-95 Camaro 3.4 is your motor. It will deliver decent mileage, but not quite as good as the 2.8.

Another potential is the 3.1 from an early FWD van.

Hope this helps.

Arn

Seriously a stock 2.8 swap would be cheap and easy.

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: For gas mileage, price and ease of installation, get a used Fiero engine. If you go to a swap shop you can generally pick up a good running engine for about $200. Anything else and the dollars will add up. If you do go to a different engine type, the 93-95 Camaro 3.4 is your motor. It will deliver decent mileage, but not quite as good as the 2.8.

To clarify matters, TSpidel, I'll bet Arn's 3.4L mileage comments above were not referring to your 2.8L engine:

quote Originally posted by TSpidel: The fuel miliage was horrible (less than ten mph) how much better will the 3.4 be?

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I am weighing my options but will post the outcome. I have been comparing prices on www.car-part.com I talked to a junkyard today and they had a 3.8 out of a Boniville for 500.00 with 78,000 miles on it. The 2.8 that was in the car when we bought it was at 87,000 miles and ended up failing at 92,000 but it was my son's fault for driving the car with the oil light on. He thought that it just needed oil, only if he would have said something I might not be doing this right now but the engine never did get good fuel mileage. One of the previous owners messed with the idle control valve and we were never able to get it back to normal. All the 3.4's that I have found so far were high mileage and 700 dollars and up. I still have more searching to do but I didn’t even consider a Fiero engine before, I will take a look at them as well. The Cadillac engine sounds good as well, but I don’t want to pay Cadillac prices for repair parts. All options are open, talk to you all soon.

Seriously. Take it from an engine swap veteran - 3.4 Pushrod/OHV engine.

If you haven't already decided on an engine swap or decided that you'll stop at nothing to install a high performance engine - time, complexity, and price be damned, and you have any concerns at all about reusing wiring or Fiero parts, you'll want to do the 3.4 OHV. Otherwise you'll likely be in the middle of the project months later, where the 3.4OHC is a weekend project if you're fast.

If you are interested, i gave up on a swap in my 86 and decided to put a 2.8 back in. I have a 3.4 Engine and wiring harness and maybe pcm, from a 04 grand am gt h.o. ram air. PM or email if interested, that is a pretty easy swap, minus dash wiring, evap removal, egr removal, ect, just programing issues that can be dealt with easily

------------------
Benjamin Wilson
TRXSandRacer02@aol.com

If you have any interest in the Cadillac 4.9 swap, contact Ed Parks at the Fiero Factory in Toney, Alabama. His web site has good info, and the swap is fairly inexpensive. Repair parts are not to bad on price, because the only things your looking at would be tune-up items.

The downside is that your son would be driving a Fiero that can smoke nearly anything on the road stoplight to stoplight.

quote Originally posted by Blue Shift: Seriously. Take it from an engine swap veteran - 3.4 Pushrod/OHV engine.

quote Originally posted by TRXSandRacer02: If you are interested, i gave up on a swap in my 86 and decided to put a 2.8 back in. I have a 3.4 Engine and wiring harness and maybe pcm, from a 04 grand am gt h.o. ram air. PM or email if interested, that is a pretty easy swap, minus dash wiring, evap removal, egr removal, ect, just programing issues that can be dealt with easily

TSpidel, be aware that the two 3.4L engines which Blue Shift and TRXSandRacer02 are talking about represent two very different 3.4L engine swaps. The thread randye referred you to near the outset of this thread, and all of my preceding comments here about a 3.4L engine swap, both refer to the same, easier engine swap that Blue Shift recently mentioned, the so-called 3.4L pushrod engine swap. There is nothing wrong with the 3.4L engine swap which TRXSandRacer02 just mentioned, and it likely will produce more power "out of the box" after you get it running right, but it definitely is not as easy an engine swap as the 3.4L pushrod engine swap.

Separately, I personally think the 4.9 engine swap olejoedad mentioned would be great fun on the street because it's such a torquey engine. However, olejoedad also makes a particularly good point that no one had brought up earlier:

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: The downside is that your son would be driving a Fiero that can smoke nearly anything on the road stoplight to stoplight.

My guess is your son would have no problem with the idea of that 4.9 in his Fiero. Perhaps the more important question is, "Would you have a problem with the idea of that 4.9 in your son's Fiero?"

So?!?! . . . What is this 3.4 Grand Am GT HO Ram Air motor, seriously, I'm unaware the differences, is it an LQ, or something else?

Norm

[This message has been edited by gt88norm (edited 06-25-2008).]

You guys are great. I think the 4.9 is what he would want but the fact that my son was able to get five tickets for one traffic stop is enough to be a bit more conservative about the available power. Actually, he is a good kid, just needed to learn not to argue with a State Policeman, no matter what. Some day we will look back on it and laugh but at 11:30 on a Sunday night it wasn’t very funny especially with the car being towed which cost me another 200.00. He has 18 hours of community service to make up for the tickets.

Ok its between the 3.4 and a 2.8 engine. I have not been able to locate another 2.8 engine yet. Is it true that the original Fiero 2.8 is not a very good engine and usually does not last more than 100,000 miles? There seem to be lots of 3.4 engines available out there.

The 3.4 from the newer Grand Am with ram air just says Ram Air H.O. i am not sure if they have any special valve train or high flow heads or what it just says it on the fenders and under the hood. I think its good for over 200 horse i think, not sure

------------------
Benjamin Wilson
TRXSandRacer02@aol.com

quote Originally posted by TRXSandRacer02: The 3.4 from the newer Grand Am with ram air just says Ram Air H.O. i am not sure if they have any special valve train or high flow heads or what it just says it on the fenders and under the hood. I think its good for over 200 horse i think, not sure

Ram air is nothing more than badges and a scoop, just a marketing ploy. The whole concept of "ram air" is flawed and has no effect on the engine power at speeds lower than 300 MPH.

The 3.4 is 170HP in the grand am.

If you're just looking for something to replace the engine and net a little extra power in the process, the 3.1 is a good option, as there are no changes needed, just use the 3.1L shortblock and bolt the Fiero stuff on. Good for about 10HP. If you're okay with a little more work, drilling the starter holes on a 3.4OHV from a camaro or such is about 20 HP over the 2.8L.

If youre okay with an actual swap, the 3.4DOHC is little more than just wiring and welding. Though I dont know if I would reccomend it on the stock Fiero auto.

Nothing the matter with the 2.8 as to longevity - I'm at 150,000 on my 86 SE and the only issue is smoking at startup due to valve guides. One must remember though, this motor does not like to rev, quits making power at about 5 grand, and will spin bearings or worse if over-revved or the oil not changed.

One thing I didnt see mentioned is that alot of these swaps are using older engines that will have alot of miles on them and need to be rebuilt if you want to get quite a few miles out of them.

The one I have decided to do is a 3800 series III NA (no supercharger) that I can get for around $500 with only 20,000 - 40,000 miles on them and they are a ton of them out there.(06-07 model)

Its a bit more work and take a few extra parts to complete it but when done you have a dependable,200hp engine with very low miles.

Steve

[This message has been edited by JumpStart (edited 06-26-2008).]

Ok guys I am a novice, I have 20 years exp working on aircraft. I have removed hundreds of jet engines but never a car engine. On many of the swaps mentioned here in this tread, they talk about removing parts from my old engine and putting them on the new one. Why can you not just use the parts on the new engine instead of the ones off the old one. I realize part of this question depends on what engine I pick. I have not had any luck finding another 2.8 that does not have high mileage (178,000) but I have found lots of 3.4's. What I haven’t figured out yet is that some of your posts have them listed as a 3.4 ohv, 3.4L, 3.4 OHC, and Push Rod 3.4. Are these all the same thing or are they different. I am searching on www.car-part.com for 1995 Pontiac Firebird Engine which then ask me if I want the 3.4L. I am picking the 3.4L is this the right choice or am I not searching correctly?

If you find a pushrod 2.8/3.1/3.4 with iron heads, you bolt on the Fiero bits that go with the wiring harness. Intake, with injectors, exhaust manifolds, etc. You can make any of the pushrods look like an original Fiero engine by swapping parts onto the engine from your dead engine.

Essentially if you want simple, you want to keep the wiring harness stock.

Arn

Ok Great, am I searching correctly for the Push Rod 3.4L by picking the 1995 Pontiac Firebird?

Yes...A 93-95 Camero or Firebird will have the engine you are looking for. The other 3.4 liter engine that is used and refered to on here is a Duel Overhead Cam engine (DOC or TOC twin overhead cam) which is a good swap but not what you are looking for.

Steve

I have an 87GT 5 speed with ~118K miles on it. I bought the car new and it has been over maintained since I've had it. It gets over 30 mpg on the highway. I also have an 88 GT with a 3.4 push rod ( it was a crate engine) installed about 50,000 miles ago. It has a 4t440 auto and it gets 27 mpg over the road. The 3.4 was installed by a Fiero mechanic and the car has been trouble free engine wise for the last nine years.

Nearly any "used" engine for the Fiero are around 20 years old and may need to be overhauled to end up with a reliable engine. Although the several engine options mentioned in this thread may be a viable replacement Fiero engine, the 3800, 3800SC, 4.9L etc, they all have more HP and may develope issues from the installation. Who do you take it to for repairs? A 2.8/3.1/3.4 are so similiar to the stock Fiero engine that there may be a few more Fiero mechanics willing to work on them.

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: A 93-95 Camero or Firebird will have the engine you are looking for. The other 3.4 liter engine that is used and refered to on here is a Duel Overhead Cam engine (DOC or TOC twin overhead cam) which is a good swap but not what you are looking for.

Another option is a pushrod 3.4L crate engine I mentioned in my first post to this thread, and which Old Lar mentioned he's used successfully in his Fiero:

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: I also have an 88 GT with a 3.4 push rod ( it was a crate engine) installed about 50,000 miles ago. It has a 4t440 auto and it gets 27 mpg over the road. The 3.4 was installed by a Fiero mechanic and the car has been trouble free engine wise for the last nine years.

Various sources offer them, but if you want to get this crate engine from GM, its GM part number is 12363230. That information, together with with the comment by JumpStart which I quoted here, hopefully will eliminate any trepidation you may have over not getting the correct 3.4L engine for your purposes.

Ok thanks for the explination, I will pursue the 3.4L. I will let you all know how it goes in a couple of weeks. I plan on buying the engine the week of the 11th of July and replace it over the weekend. The car is my sons main tranportation so he is burning up all my gas in the meantime. I am hoping we can remove the old engine next weekend and do some cleaning restoration prior to installing the new engine.

quote Originally posted by project34: Various sources offer them, but if you want to get this crate engine from GM, its GM part number is 12363230. That information, together with with the comment by JumpStart which I quoted here, hopefully will eliminate any trepidation you may have over not getting the correct 3.4L engine for your purposes.

I was looking at a couple of crate engine suppliers websites. Both sites stated that the current 3.4 crate engine cannot be used in a Fiero since the block casting has been changed and no longer has sufficient material to drill out for relocating the starter.

Well, here is a shameless plug... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/042779.html
The 3800SC swaps are pretty easy if you do what I did and have the mounts and harness made by someone else... Series II is 240HP.

-Brian

quote Originally posted by TiredGXP: I was looking at a couple of crate engine suppliers websites. Both sites stated that the current 3.4 crate engine cannot be used in a Fiero since the block casting has been changed and no longer has sufficient material to drill out for relocating the starter.

If this is true, its not good news for us. This would have been my 2nd choice (3.4L) rather than the 3800. The only reasons I am doing the 3800 is that the crate engines I have priced are about $2000 which really is not bad at all for a new engine and I already have the mounts for the 3800 and a low mileage series III (2007 model with 10,000-30,000 miles) is around $500.

TSpidel, Considering it is for your son, I would defiantly try for a 3.4 crate for a piece of mind that he wouldn't get stranded by engine failure if there are still some out there that will work in a Fiero. Otherwise maybe we here can come up with a comparable swap.

Steve

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: If this is true, its not good news for us. This would have been my 2nd choice (3.4L) rather than the 3800. The only reasons I am doing the 3800 is that the crate engines I have priced are about $2000 which really is not bad at all for a new engine and I already have the mounts for the 3800 and a low mileage series III (2007 model with 10,000-30,000 miles) is around $500. TSpidel, Considering it is for your son, I would defiantly try for a 3.4 crate for a piece of mind that he wouldn't get stranded by engine failure if there are still some out there that will work in a Fiero. Otherwise maybe we here can come up with a comparable swap. Steve

http://paceperformance.com/...IEWPROD&ProdID=22494

Scroll to the bottom of the page, and you see this:

"Many people have asked if this engine can be swapped into Fieros, and the answer is no. The block casting was revised a few years ago, and there is no longer enough material to drill and tap to mount the starter on the opposite side of the block as is required for Fiero usage."

Isnt there a crated 4 cyl. engine that is used in the S10s that should bolt up? Or am I thinking of the 3.4?

Steve

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: The 3.4 is 170HP in the grand am.

The 3400 is rated at that but guys over on the Z24 forum are using this engine very often. They have dyno slips of it making 170ish whp from completly stock engine, so its clearly under-rated from the factory and more like 200ish crank horse power. A guy on here ran his down the 1/4 with a stock 3400 and he ran low 14s. Thats quicker than the 3.8 na times on our 1/4 mile list and that engine is rated at 205 hp.

the 3400 engine can be had for cheap, its an easy swap. The hardest part is rewiring the old harness. plus they have a great sound at idle AND wot. it is also light (al heads) and gets great fuel economy. I can get 36mpg all highway on my getrag, with an OD AT i bet it could do a little better.

I went with the 3400 because it priced out cheaper than if i were to go with the 3.4. This is because every 3.4 i came across I would want to rebuild it which ends up costing a bunch. My 3400 had only 19k

I think that a 3.4 swap would take less time than the 3400 swap. So if time is the biggest issue i also recommend 3.4, If you have a couple weeks i say go with the 3400

[This message has been edited by LZeppelin513 (edited 06-27-2008).]

quote Originally posted by TiredGXP:I was looking at a couple of crate engine suppliers websites. Both sites stated that the current 3.4 crate engine cannot be used in a Fiero since the block casting has been changed and no longer has sufficient material to drill out for relocating the starter.

Please post the names of both of the two vendors you were referring to so that all concerned can simply take them at their word and not waste time asking to buy a 3.4L crate engine from them. From the information you've already reported, Tired GXP, one of them, as was the case last year, remains Pace Performance. Who is the other one you've referred to?

Incidentally, this "too-thin" assertion that has been alleged re the 3.4L crate engine has been discussed before and met with skepticism by more than just me in at least two other threads, "2.8 Stoker kit" [sic], accessible via this link, https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/090199.html , and in "3.4 ht crate engine question," accessible via this link, https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/067777.html .