I have a few questions about this and about the jack stands. I follwed the removing the v6 by the numbers thread pretty faithfully and ive done everything in order but two things im a little sketched out about are hooking the hoist to the latch and putting the jack stands where they are said to go. When i put the jack stands in the stock cutout spot the front wheels would lift as well as the back making the car like a see saw which immeadiatly scared me and my dad that the frame would bend so we got it off very quickly. I then moved them back to where ive seen people put a 4x4 across the rear and jack it up to removed the cradle and it did much the same thing. At that time i have been storing some heavy stuff in the trunk which im sure accounted for some of the see saw effect but i wanted to check if this happened to anyone else or if im doing something wrong because i dont want to mess up the car in any way. Also today while i was trying to move the jack stands around and slide the dolly under where i wanted it my jack was at its full range so i hooked the hoist up and as soon as there was no slack in the chain what the car was doing started to scare me a lot. I could see the rear clip flexing and the latch bent pretty badly from holding the car not more than a minute. Im thinking now i want to put the chains through the strut towers or something because this doesnt seem like a good idea granted the engine was still in the car but according to the removal thread that latch should be able to hold the weight of the entire car let alone the back end?

somewhere with all the information you typed, i missed what your question is.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 05-05-2008).]

Read my thread here:
The chain should be attached under the carpet and the front wheels should be on ramps with tie down straps.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/083656.html
wait for pic to load:

What should i do with the jack stands and i no some beding of the latch is normal but this thing seemed to be bending beyond where it looked safe to have it like that. Just wondering if thats normal?

I won't use the trunk latch to lift the car. It is not designed to carry all that weight. There are several better ideas illustrated in the above reference thread. I like the one that uses the two holes in the front wall of the trunk. The trunk loop that you've bent can be reformed into it's original shape.

I put two 2x6s (stacked so it's really 4x6) across under the car just forward of the front cradle mounts and put my floor jack and jack stands under the 2x6s. If you have to take the gas tank out this won't work.

What james bond 007 was doing with wheels tied down to the ramps was assuring that the wheels could not roll.

quote Originally posted by James Bond 007: Read my thread here: The chain should be attached under the carpet and the front wheels should be on ramps with tie down straps. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/083656.html wait for pic to load:

hey ... that's my car ... and my ramps ... and and my garage ...


and I don't use the trunk latch either ..... you can check out my thread in the link above for what I did, but basically made a rig to go across the strut towers


Rich

[This message has been edited by Richjk21 (edited 05-05-2008).]

quote Originally posted by 2farnorth: I won't use the trunk latch to lift the car. It is not designed to carry all that weight. There are several better ideas illustrated in the above reference thread. I like the one that uses the two holes in the front wall of the trunk. The trunk loop that you've bent can be reformed into it's original shape. I put two 2x6s (stacked so it's really 4x6) across under the car just forward of the front cradle mounts and put my floor jack and jack stands under the 2x6s. If you have to take the gas tank out this won't work. What james bond 007 was doing with wheels tied down to the ramps was assuring that the wheels could not roll.

What you said about the latch is what i was trying to say. I got the latch back in shape with the help of a 2lb sludge. My gas take is still in the car but when i had the jack stands in the place your talking about it still rocked the car enough that it didnt seem right. Maybe it will be better after the cradle is completely unbolted.

There is NO WAY I would use the trunk latch to lift the car. That's nuts! I prefer to wrap a tie-down strap (rated for 3000 lb) around the rear impact bar, and hook the chain to the tie-down strap. See photo below.

Thats not a bad idea but im think im going to go with the two holes on the front side of the trunk so i dont have to remove the rear bumper. Also i see that you have aluminum cradle bushings that reminded me of another question i have. I see those going for around $100 but i think im also going to need new bushings so where can i get poly bushings for everything except the cradle bushings and what do they go for?

ok, 2 comments:

1. with the 4x4 just foward of the front cradle mounts, the car should not teeter at all. take the crap out of the trunk. I;ve stood in my trunk with it on the 4x4 and janck stands, and it didn;t budge.


2. As long as the cradle is in the car, just wrap a chain around the rear crossmember and lift it that way, or to each side of the cradle.
there are alot of places to lift it from back there, but the trunklatch is definately NOT one of them.

I had the jack stands in that exact spot but with out the 4x4. I can try the 4x4 thing tomorrow but i need to get the cradle undone first.

DON'T do what a prevous owner of my silver 84 did--ran a long chain under the car just ahead of the cradle, hooked the 2 ends together on top and picked the whole up thing up with a chain hoist. The chain marks left in the rear qtrs he covered up with flame decals.
{Yes, I know you would never consider this method--I just wanted to rant a bit)

Thanks for the pic Richjk21 (helped my get my 3800SC II installed).

After I discovered my rear hatch wouldn't align correctly (too high) I quit using the latch. I had to pound it back in to get the lid to align. I just use some plates and eyes in the strut towers now.

You should never use the latch to lift or even support the car. Its only held in with 2 10mm bolts, plus as you found out, it will bend. You should always lift from the front trunk wall support with TWO points, one will not do, use a short chan to hook 2 points. If you dont get it bent back just right, you may find that the trunk will close and not open. If this happens you will have to pop out the freeze plug and reach in from the bottom with a 10mm wrench to remove the latch bolts.

The front of the car will lift some, the weight coming off of the suspension, but the wheels should not lift off the ground. You are not going to bend the frame doing this. However, you should not be doing this with the cradle in. If you need to lift the car, place a jack under the rear cradle member. There is too much weight with the cradle and all to be lifting the car and supporting it safely.

quote Originally posted by James Bond 007: Thanks for the pic Richjk21 (helped my get my 3800SC II installed).

Glad it helped ... after all that's what this place is all about. Just thought it was funny, I think that's the first time I've seen one of my pics posted in another thread.


Rich

the placement of the 4x4 is just where the foward cradle mounts hit the frame. leaves about 2-3" for access tot he flange that the cradle bolts to.

If your feeling lucky and decide to use the trunk latch be sure to lighten the rear of the car as much as possible. I have only used the trunk latch (and have been very lucky thus far) to lift the car but I do not attempt to lift the subframe with it. I use a rolling furniture dolly with blocks that nearly match the height of the subframe and then I take out the subframe bolts with the engine hoist supporting the rear of the car. I make sure I have the front wheels chocked and have blocks under the body/frame (at the normal jack location along the sides of the car to catch the car if something should give. Once the subframe and all connections have been seperated from the body/frame I then carefully lift the rear of the car with the engine hoist. As I raise the car I keep looking to see that the body/frame has not hung up on anything. Then I pile a bunch more wood blocks to prevent the car from crushing me while I pull the subframe out on the dolly. After all of that, I put the forward subframe bolts back in with nuts in place and use the jack stands to hold the car up by the forward subframe bolts. This is the only picture I have of the car being supported by the forward subframe bolts using jack stands. After at least 10 to 15 lifts using this method I have not yet bent the rear latch. (knocks on metal....)

[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 05-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Richjk21: hey ... that's my car ... and my ramps ... and and my garage ... and I don't use the trunk latch either ..... you can check out my thread in the link above for what I did, but basically made a rig to go across the strut towers Rich

Rich, that is one clean car. Beautiful.

A question on the ramps. When pulling my engine I tried having the front wheels on ramps like yours in the pic. With my equipment I could not get enough altitude for the tail end. I had to drop the front to the ground and try again to get the back high enough to clear the struts.

Were you using an engine puller to lift the back?
Is there a negative to sliding the cradle/engine/trans in with out the links, knuckles, hubs, struts etc? I would assemble them on the car once everything was tightened down.

I used to hook a chain into the tops of the strut towers but now I use the two holes in the reinforcing cross member on the front trunk wall. Using those holes allows the cherry picker to stand further back from the car so the ram does not hit the rear bumper. I've also found it better NOT to put the front on ramps when lifting the rear of the car to get the engine out. If you put the front on ramps then the stands have to be that much higher to get the same angle on the car to clear the engine when rolling out. With the front on the floor the car is at a much greater angle for the same stand height to the back is that much higher.
The place to put the stands is on the flat ledge just in front of the front cradle mounts. If you put your stands in line with the stock jacking points that will be way to far forward and the car will tip some. With the stands on that ledge the car is quite safe, it will 'settle' a little bit it won't tip.
I know people have used 2x4's etc across the car for additional support but in my opinion, the fewer components involved in holding the car up, the better as there's less to slip/go wrong.

------------------
Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

sofar - using the latch has worked out OK for me. but - as mentioned - it does shift - ansd afterwords, the hood doesnt close right, until you bang the latch back in place. and, after banging it back in place - it is now weakened - so I'm scared to use it again. I am looking for a new hoist point. I've used the bar across the underside & jacks many times. I much prefer the hoist. I do like the straps around the rear bumper. how tough to get at them?

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 05-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by sjmaye: Rich, that is one clean car. Beautiful. A question on the ramps. When pulling my engine I tried having the front wheels on ramps like yours in the pic. With my equipment I could not get enough altitude for the tail end. I had to drop the front to the ground and try again to get the back high enough to clear the struts. Were you using an engine puller to lift the back? Is there a negative to sliding the cradle/engine/trans in with out the links, knuckles, hubs, struts etc? I would assemble them on the car once everything was tightened down.

I was just using a standard cherry picker (engine hoist) and I had no problems getting things high enough to roll the cradle assembly out the wheel well intact. You can see it in the pics here, especially the last few shots

http://home.comcast.net/~rrisc21/drop.htm

And thanks for the nice words on the car .... always nice to hear, and this is where I usually throw in the "Not bad for $500 huh??

Other non cradle drop pics here

http://home.comcast.net/~rrisc21/fiero.htm


Rich

[This message has been edited by Richjk21 (edited 05-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Richjk21: I was just using a standard cherry picker (engine hoist) and I had no problems getting things high enough to roll the cradle assembly out the wheel well intact. You can see it in the pics here, especially the last few shots http://home.comcast.net/~rrisc21/drop.htm And thanks for the nice words on the car .... always nice to hear. Rich

so your cradle dolly fit between the legs of the hoist?
I was thinking I needed to make a new dolly to get over the legs of the hoist - and that means I gotta hoist even higher...and ...ug...

It did ... coming in from the side with the legs around the dolly worked out fine. The one thing that made it a little easier is the hoist I was using has the long bottom legs that can fold up for storage or remove completely, they slide into the channel and are held with pins. Well I removed one leg and then positioned the hoist exactly where I wanted, then I put the leg back in and pinned it in place.


Rich

nice. same hoist I will be using. was thinking it MAY work from the side, and getting between the legs. gonna try it this weekend.

any tips on making the strut hooks?

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 05-06-2008).]

sure ... give me a sec


Here is alink to my original thread with detailed pics of the lifting blocks I made up. One thing to note is I used a combination of the 2 methods. I used the 4x4 & floor jack to lift the body enough to gain room in the top of the strut towers to install my lifting blocks.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-2-071299.html

Rich

[This message has been edited by Richjk21 (edited 05-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by mtownfiero: When i put the jack stands in the stock cutout spot the front wheels would lift as well as the back making the car like a see saw

This is your first error. The stock cutouts are too far forward for the jack stands. You want to place them just forward of the rearportion of the frame where the rails turn upwards behind the firewall. There is a picture in the thread to show the location. If positioned correctly your front wheels should be no where close to coming off the ground

quote At that time i have been storing some heavy stuff in the trunk which im sure accounted for some of the see saw effect

Mistake #2. The trunk should be TOTALLY empty

quote I could see the rear clip flexing and the latch bent pretty badly from holding the car not more than a minute. Im thinking now i want to put the chains through the strut towers or something because this doesnt seem like a good idea granted the engine was still in the car but according to the removal thread that latch should be able to hold the weight of the entire car let alone the back end?

It sounds to me like you have other issues going on here. The trunk latch is rated to about 3200 lbs. You should be able to lift the car with the latch and slide the cradle under the engine with very little bending. I tend to do this step quickly but I've never noticed any flexing or bending in doing it. Exactly how much extra weight do you have in the trunk?

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 05-06-2008).]

Well when i was putting the jack stands under the car i may have had 100+ pounds or so in the car. I had put the battery, parts and tools i had in there because there right there when i need them. Now that the battery and some parts are out of it id say i have between 30 and 50 pounds in it. Im going to empty out all the stuff and give it another shot. Im just trying to get all the weight i can off the rear two bolts so i can try and turn them again or cut the heads off. When i had the hoist attached to the trunk latch i had the 30 to 50 lbs in the trunk but from what i had herd about it being able to support the weight of the entire car i didnt think it mattered til i started jacking up the hoist.

All these ideas except the one where the Fiero is lifted by the support bar look suicidal to me and even that scheme uses a wood frame as the support! It is never a good idea to use wood as a lifting member.Wood might work for a while but can crack unexpectedly and at any time. Heavy steel is the way to a safe lift. I would also not try to use any place in the Fiero inner space frame body as a lifting point. The car is not designed to be lifted that way.
If you want safety then there is no substitute for a good hydraulic lift but I have seen guys lift a Fiero up using two ( 2 arm) floor jacks-one on each side of the car.
I realize that many guys have used jacks, wood blocks and jack stands to change and swap engines but IMO this is like playing with fire. Eventually someone gets burned.

------------------
87GT - with 3800SC Series III engine, 4T65eHD
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: All these ideas except the one where the Fiero is lifted by the support bar look suicidal to me and even that scheme uses a wood frame as the support! It is never a good idea to use wood as a lifting member.Wood might work for a while but can crack unexpectedly and at any time. Heavy steel is the way to a safe lift. I would also not try to use any place in the Fiero inner space frame body as a lifting point. The car is not designed to be lifted that way. If you want safety then there is no substitute for a good hydraulic lift but I have seen guys lift a Fiero up using two ( 2 arm) floor jacks-one on each side of the car. I realize that many guys have used jacks, wood blocks and jack stands to change and swap engines but IMO this is like playing with fire. Eventually someone gets burned.

the struts towers are in fact designed with the weight of the car in mind. that is what the rear of the cars rests on, after all. and, they take the beating, with the full weight - cradle and all - everytime you drive - and every bump & dip is a slam against this surface. if it cant lift the car - the car is junk anyways.

Just to be sure that the math is not replaced with scare mongering I am reprinting this portion of the procedure:

quote BIG TIP #5: This is a safe procedure. I am unaware of a single latch being ripped out by the weight of the car before. Aside from the anicdotal evidence that my Golden Gate Fiero Club collegues and I have collectively done this about 50 times without incident, or that if one of these ever actually did give way the story would be plastered all over Pennocks in 72 point typeface, I did a few calcs and here is the math; The latch is made of ¼” round steel with a solid pressed button to the base plate. The exact shear strength on this piece is not known but it is clearly more that the shear strength of the surrounding sheet metal which is as follows: the shear strength for the average spot weld of .8 mm sheet metal is 900 lbs….each! The rear trunk support bracket of the Fiero has no less than 8 spot welds. That is a rating of 7200lbs. Then you have the two Grade 8 M6 bolts rated to 1,600 lbs each or 3,200 lbs…for a 2,860 pound car. In theory, you could lift the entire car up off the ground by this latch. And with the engine out and the front wheels on the ground the weight you are actually lifting is considerably less. The only ill effects of this procedure are that the latch tends to bend up slightly making the decklid stick up when closed. The solution is quite simply a single hammer blow to the latch. The mounting screws also allow for some adjustment. If you want to do this more than once you can also just do as I do and keep a spare latch that I use just for lifting so I don’t care that it is bent. Further reading for the safety conscious: http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb...dbook/592mig11_9.htm http://www.rigging.net/Bolts.html

Having said all this, there is no question that there are other ways to lift the car that are equally effective. If you just can't get past the heebie-jeebies of lifting the car by the latch then, by all means, use another method. Personally I prefer to use the Auto-Lift but I have no hesitation using the latch as it has worked for me dozens of times with absolutely no ill effects.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 05-06-2008).]

personally i'd just use the engine hoist to jack out the engine itself
or did u need the transmission, axles, cradle, ect...as well
kinda helps if u can save lifting the whole car right.
ps. use spring compressors if u can fit your hands back behind the
wheel

It's not the bolts or the latch itself I'm concerned about, its the whole piece ripping right off the thin piece of sheet metal it's bolted to. Concentrating that much weight in such a small area just seems like an unnecessary risk to me. I prefer to use a few straps and hook into the cross-brace on the trunk/engine wall behind the trunk carpet.

quote Originally posted by BlackGT Codde: personally i'd just use the engine hoist to jack out the engine itself or did u need the transmission, axles, cradle, ect...as well kinda helps if u can save lifting the whole car right. ps. use spring compressors if u can fit your hands back behind the wheel

I've pulled the engine out the top, it took two of us like 4 or 6 hours, we pulled the cradle to put it back in because we didnt want to screw with trying to get it back in. I can drop the cradle by myself in under 1.5 hours consistantly, thats from drive in until cradle out. Its a LOT easier, especially when it comes to splitting \ mating the transmission. There is only a few more things you have to do to drop the whole cradle, tranny cables, wheels, hang calipers and unbolt strut towers. A lot faster than unbolting the exhaust, unhooking the tranny wiring, unbolting the tranny, unbolting the engine mounts, trying to wiggle it off the tranny, and whatever else. Once you have the cradle out you can easily access the mounts and exhaust manifolds and address any issues with the cradle and tranny and clean things up.

As for lifting from the trunk latch, I dont care if its been done 1000 times, thats just not a good idea. It doesnt take 30 seconds to pull the carpet back and hook into the crossbrace, I used a "s" hook the same diameter as the trunk latch once, and it started straightening out on me, and I've had the trunk latch bend on me just using it as a 3rd point of lift. It bent enough I couldnt get the trunk to open afterwards and had to reach in and unbolt the latch from the bottom of the trunk. The trunk latch was designed and installed with nothing in mind but keeping the trunk from flopping open.

As for putting the front wheels on car ramps, I did try this once, I forget why... oh yea, I was pulling the gas tank and the engine, anyway, it worked ok, but I think its an unneccesary added risk, either the car rolling off, or the ramps collapsing from the weight and lateral forces. I used tiedown straps to secure the wheels to the ramps, as they definitely wanted to roll as I was lifting.

I dont know about the 4x4 idea either, that seems to me it might want to roll if you bumped the car, I always put two jackstands at the joint a little in front of the foward cradle mounts, it keeps them from sliding and is very strong.

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 05-07-2008).]

I used the two holes closest together on the front side of the trunk today and it worked great. It made a little bump on one side because one of the s hooks i had was a little sharper on the end then the other but no scary creaks or bending. Best part was i was able to get the car onto the dolly i made and loosen one of the cradle bolts a little. Im really getting sick of how long this is taking me though. If i dont get the bolts out tomorrow im cutting the heads off them end of story. lol

I usually use 2 of the wider, but not widest holes, but I dont imagine it matters much.

At anyrate, dont cut the heads off anything yet. Which are you having trouble with?

The fronts you DEFINTIELY dont want to cut. If they're stuck, its cause they are siezed in the sleeves, and the heads are the only way to get them out. You just have to soak them in WD 40, break the nuts loose, then put the nuts on the end to protect the threads and break them loose. A big A breaker bar on the bolt end and a BFH wailing on the other sometimes works. Or you can put a very large socket over the bolt end and use a C clamp to press it out, or heat it quickly but carefully with a torch. The heat will cause thermal movement and break it loose, but can also burn, melt, or destroy the rubber mounts.

If its the rears, Just get a big breaker bar and try. Chances are they are either going to come out, or the nut inside the frame will break loose (which is very common)

If the nut has broken loose, then just take an exhaust cutter or other tool you can cut flat steel with, and cut a door immediately above the bolt. You need to go up about 1/2" to clear the floor of the frame member, and go about 3" wide, 1.5" each way from the bolt. But dont cut the top, just 3 sides so you can bend it up and close it later.
Open that up and soak the nut from the inside with WD40, once that has set, just grab it with some vice grips and use the head to turn it loose. If its stuck, heat it red hot with a torch it will come loose.
To put the cradle back in, you can either weld the the nuts back in place or use the vice grips again, or get regualr nuts and use a wrench. I weld the doors closed when im done, but I dont imagine it matters too much.

I used the hole in the trunk wall and the bracket for the top engine mount.

thanks for the info but its the heads off the rear bolts.When i first tried undoing them i broke a ratchet a socket and an extender. When i got a 1/2in drive t bar and socket the heads just flaked away. So today using a floor jack i was able to press a smaller socket onto the passenger side one and got maybe a turn or two out of it but not much. The drivers side which is the one i broke the majority of the tools on still hasnt moved at all. this is the reason for cutting the heads off i dont know what else to do because vice grips hasnt worked either.