Last time I installed the rear poly's myself and the squeaking wasn't as bad, the it went completely away. This time I had a shop completely rebuild my front end including poly bushings and the squeak is terrible. I just picked the car up yesterday, do you think the squeak will go away or should I just go right back to the shop and have them disassemble and re-grease. I think they totally neglected to grease at all. That's my feeling anyway.

If the shop used Prothane Poly control arm bushings, the old bushing shells were gutted and resused. Depending on how aggressively the old rubber was removed you could have a sloppy fit in the shells. This would cause noise as would a lack of grease in the inner sleeves. When we install poly bushings in an old shells we use very strong Gorilla glue to firmly mount the bushing in the old shell. This cuts down on the possibilty of any outer movement of the bushings. The only movement that you should see is around the bolt, not anywhere else.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Funny you mention that. Let me tell you a little story. I dropped off all of the bushings, shocks, ball joints, tie rods, teflon grease, and brief instructions on torching the old bushings and greasing the new, on Monday last week. I was told I could definitely have my car done by Friday. I called on Thursday afternoon to find out that the car hadn't even been touched yet. So I get a message n my voice mail at 3:30pm on Friday telling me the poly bushings don't fit. So I call them back and explain that the old sleeves need to be used with the poly, and then they tell me they pressed out the old sleeves. After some explaining they go back to reinstall the old sleeves, then I get another call telling me the sleeves were rotted out and I need to get all new sleeves AND a new upper pass control arm. So I race around to every parts store in town looking for these parts, which are impossible to get. This is an 88 by the way. Fiero Store says they have the control arm and upper rubber bushings. I would have to buy a whole new rubber bushing set and then use those sleeves. So I went up there early on Saturday morning, and was told that they didn't have the control arm. BUT they did tell me I should be able to use 84-87 lower control arm bushings instead of 88's. As long as I tack weld them in place. So I get all this stuff and go back to the shop. Turns out the control arm was fine, it was a little worn but nothing a new welded in bushing sleeve can't fix. I informed them once again how to grease the bushings.

And finally my car was ready yesterday.

So my point is, I bought all new rubber bushings which were then burnt out to make room for the poly. And pre 88's work in the lower control arms.

I talked to the shop just now and they told me their mechanic greased the bushings. I asked if he greased the INNER sleeves, and the answer I got was " I didn't watch him do the whole job, but I would think he did." I'll give it two weeks.

If excessive heat is applied to the old bushing shells it is possible for the metallurgy and for the dimensional stability to change. While we don't mind reusing the old shells on the cradle for a fixed position application, we are hessitant to reuse shells on control arm bushings. Perhaps our concerns are unfounded but if Prothane wanted to make a good product they would supply bushings in new shells. Then they will be as tight as need be and the possibility of movement eliminated. Supplying control arm bushings without shells is IMO a bad idea. While they may very well work, I don't feel comfortable doing the job this way.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: If excessive heat is applied to the old bushing shells it is possible for the metallurgy and for the dimensional stability to change. While we don't mind reusing the old shells on the cradle for a fixed position application, we are hessitant to reuse shells on control arm bushings. Perhaps our concerns are unfounded but if Prothane wanted to make a good product they would supply bushings in new shells. Then they will be as tight as need be and the possibility of movement eliminated. Supplying control arm bushings without shells is IMO a bad idea. While they may very well work, I don't feel comfortable doing the job this way.

I agree, especially when it is damn near impossible to pick up new sleeves if the old ones are unuseable like mine were.

Most likely it isnt just going to go away. I still dont know why in the world people still burn out the old bushings. They press out really easy with a piece of pipe, a socket, and a regular bench vise. The poly then pushes in really easy this way to. I did all 4 front control arms in about a hour with no mess.

Jason

The bushings probably weren't lubed correctly. Some minor squeaks here and there are par for the course. But constant loud squeaking is BAD. It's an indicator of excess friction, which will wear out the bushings prematurely.

Brewcheese, you've got a PM...

Thanks,

fierogt28

When i did the poly on my 87 GT my bushings didn't want to fit all the way either. That was with the inner sleeve installed. I removed the inner sleeve and with slight tapping the poly bushing went in snug. Then i had to use a little bit of force to get the inner sleeve in but it went in fairly easy. I used generous lube on the inner and outer diameters of the bushing and sleeves and shells. I never noticed mine squeeking either. The shop probably never did them before and was in a rush. Sometimes it's just better to do it yourself,but if you can't your at the mercy of the mechanic

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REMEMBER KIDS 4.9 ARE NOT SBC's

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: When we install poly bushings in an old shells we use very strong Gorilla glue to firmly mount the bushing in the old shell. This cuts down on the possibilty of any outer movement of the bushings. The only movement that you should see is around the bolt, not anywhere else.

I personally would NOT recommend using gorilla glue (or any other kind of glue) on the outer sleeve. The poly bushings are designed to provide a firm alignment but remain moveable up and down. Attaching them to the outer sleeve will stiffen the up and down motion of the suspension making the ride worse and providing more wear. (this will create more friction.) Especially if the sleeve corrodes to the bolt, then you would get wear and stress on the bolt and possibly cause the outside sleeve to become loose on the control arm which would be a very bad thing. The stress applied when driving on a bumpy road or hitting a pot hole is very great. Rubber bushings will twist and flex more that is why they attach them to the outer sleeves. The up and down movement is suppose to be dampened by the springs and shocks/struts, Not the bushings.

------------------------ Back to the topic ------------------------------------------

When I did mine I used new sleeves by buying a set of rubber ones and removing the rubber bushings. I did not burn them out, I used liquid nitrogen. I just soaked them in LN then just pushed them out with a wooden stick. The LN shrinks the rubber so they just slide out. I also used a high-grade aero-space teflon grease. It was a little thinner viscosity than the grease supplied with the bushings. It's been about 5 years and no squeeks or creaks. I do clean off the ends and coat them with the teflon grease every fall before I store the car.
Many have also added grease fittings like the pic that Revin posted. Also grease should be on the surface than meets the frame as well. They may have greased the sides of the bushing but may have neglected to coat the ends when the control arms were installed.

Again, Please don't glue the bushing to the sleeve. It will cause more wear and problems.
Here is a hint, If putting a grease fitting on the outer shell eliminates squeeks and creaks, that should tell you that the bushing has to allow movement between the bushing and the outer sleeve.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-17-2007).]

How about a survey?

My bushing were not properly lubed? They are squeaking and squawking like crazy, but it's only the second day driving on a total front suspension rebuild.

Yes or No.

I have used poly bushings in several cars without any squeeking. I just installed them in the front of my Fiero and the new bushings fit the old shells just fine. You need to use liberal amounts of silicone greese.

I have the same squeaky problem, but this was after I had new struts, shocks & lowering springs installed

quote Originally posted by revin:

You install the grease fitting yourself? I like the look of it.

I'm glad this topic came up, as I was about to redo my bushings with poly. Sounds to me like they could use lube, the FieroStore itself does recommend generous amounts of lube. Its just squeaking and not rattling right?

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[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 05-17-2007).]

yep !
Just do it before you put the shaft inside the poly.
1. remove old rubber
2. remove poly from freezer (few hrs in ) grease them up real good and put them in the a arm
3. get a drill and tap the same size and go for it! ( remember that the posistion you add them is with a load on the car)
4. I put a small piece of cardboard to catch the shavings from drilling.
5. slide the sleeve in and you are good to go !

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88 GT, 3800SC, Getrag 5sp. 12" Vette Rotors,Custom stuff done

Good idea Revin, but I don't have the time and I had a shop do the install. No garage, no time, no self install.

I did have the ball joints, tie rods, and shocks all done at the same time. So maybe it's all connected (figuratively % literally )to the squeaking.

I installed my poly bushing in the old sleeves. We pressed out the old rubber then used a wire brush on a drill to make sure the sleeve was clean. The lube went on the inside of the sleeves and outside of the bushings. We then lubed the inside of the bushings and outside of the center tube (name escapes me at the moment). They did not and have not squeaked at all. I'm my opinion you should take it back to them and have them fix it. If they did not know how to do the job correctly they should have said so. You should not need to wait for them to settle to stop squeaking. Do not use gorilla glue or anything other then teflon grease to lube them. Poly bushings are suppose to move freely in the sleeves. The Control arm bolts should tighten down on the center tube to hold torque. If you were to use gorilla glue you would have to load the suspension before you tighten up the bolts in the control arms.

Point is if they greased them right they would not be squeaking. All the other new parts you put on should only help eliminate the squeaking. If you got the tools you should just fix it yourself. If not take it back and make them do it right... Watch if you can (or at the very least threaten to). Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-17-2007).]

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: How about a survey? My bushing were not properly lubed? They are squeaking and squawking like crazy, but it's only the second day driving on a total front suspension rebuild. Yes or No.

I vote "No" they were not properly lubed.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: I personally would NOT recommend using gorilla glue (or any other kind of glue) on the outer sleeve. The poly bushings are designed to provide a firm alignment but remain moveable up and down. Attaching them to the outer sleeve will stiffen the up and down motion of the suspension making the ride worse and providing more wear. (this will create more friction.) Especially if the sleeve corrodes to the bolt, then you would get wear and stress on the bolt and possibly cause the outside sleeve to become loose on the control arm which would be a very bad thing. The stress applied when driving on a bumpy road or hitting a pot hole is very great. Rubber bushings will twist and flex more that is why they attach them to the outer sleeves. The up and down movement is suppose to be dampened by the springs and shocks/struts, Not the bushings.

Orief:
Thanks for for ther polite and thoughful comment. We only glue in cradlle poly bushings. We seek a fixed position cradle and don't want any movement there. When we put the bolts back we use anti-sieze on them. Now gluing in the control arm bushings to the shells may limit the movement that you reference above but quite frankly the movement on a bushing should be about the bolt and sleeve and not between the bushing surface and the sleeve. Movement here would cause severe wear. Howver, I can see your point and that is why we don't even lke using poly control arms bushings that require gutting the old shells and fitting them in. IMO the fit of the bushing in the shell should be done by the manufacturer not by a mechanic in the field.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Orief: Thanks for for ther polite and thoughful comment. We only glue in cradlle poly bushings. We seek a fixed position cradle and don't want any movement there. When we put the bolts back we use anti-sieze on them. Now gluing in the control arm bushings to the shells may limit the movement that you reference above but quite frankly the movement on a bushing should be about the bolt and sleeve and not between the bushing surface and the sleeve. Movement here would cause severe wear. Howver, I can see your point and that is why we don't even lke using poly control arms bushings that require gutting the old shells and fitting them in. IMO the fit of the bushing in the shell should be done by the manufacturer not by a mechanic in the field.

True that this would not affect the cradle bushings as movement is nil, (Note: the manufacturer still states to properly lube the bushings even for the cradle.)
But you did not refer to cradle bushings anywhere in your original post. You stated control arm bushings in the first sentence and never mentioned the cradle. To the average reader, it would appear you were referencing that you glued the outer sleeve on the control arm bushings.

As for the control arm bushings allowing movement between the outer shell and the bushing, You have an incorrect understanding of poly bushings. They are designed to move. That is why the manufacturer instructs you to lube the inside AND outer sleeve. The bushing is being used as a "free-floating bushing" which reduces friction and allows the control arm to move accurately up and down without any excess flex or loading of the suspension. Most performance suspensions also use the "free-floating bushing" method especially when using poly or other stiff materials as a bushing.

Taken from the "Energy Suspension's" website:
"The original manufacturers normally use rubber in bushings to cushion the metal-on-metal suspension points. This setup makes for a nice, soft ride that appeals to commuters, but it’s not usually up to the rigors of performance driving. Compounding the problem is that over time, road contaminants reduce these rubber bushings to dust. And if road salt and oil don’t get these tiny components, the constant compression of the vehicle weight and torque eventually pancake them until they become functionless. The cure is some nonbinding, free-floating bushings that goes a long way in maintaining proper suspension geometry. The key to Energy Suspension’s product longevity and durability is its special formulation of polyurethane-Hyper-Flex-that is uniquely immune to the weaknesses of rubber."

And from Motor Magazine:
Energy Suspension's Tanya Oxford notes that because polyurethane does not bond to metal, it remains free-floating and allows a greater range of motion. In control arm applications, this property eliminates the need to weight the wheels before the final fastener torque is applied.

And Finally:
From http://www.valvoline.com/ca...asp?pg=res20020701pb
Another advantage of polyurethane bushings is that they're virtually impervious to oil and other road contaminants. These units will not crush down or wear out like rubber bushings, and are designed to be free-floating, rotating 360 degrees, so the suspension can articulate fully without binding. In contrast, rubber bushings are often bonded to a metal shell and sleeve, and function with a twisting action that, when pushed to its limit, binds up instead of rotating freely like urethane units. Rubber bushings can even induce wheel hop from the spring-like action of the rubber twisting back and forth.

Here is some more info...
http://www.geocities.com/Mo...ty/1701/bushings.htm

There is also Delrin bushings... http://www.westcoastfiero.c...delrin_bushings.html
**Disclaimer**
Delrin Bushings - Delrin solid suspension bushings are designed for hardcore autocrossing and road racing. This bushing material will not deflect durning hard cornering. This produces very precise steering, turn in, and quicker cornering. Road noise and vibration are transmitted DIRECTLY. Due to their harshness, we do not recommend them for normal street use.
**Disclaimer**

For those of you with access to a lathe and the know-how to make bushings (hehe). Maybe you body guys?
http://www.professionalplas...qrlowCFQTSYAodbisC0w
http://www.usplastic.com/ca...2806&cookie%5Ftest=1

Remember that your shocks/struts, springs, and suspension geometry need to work well with your bushing choice.

quote Originally posted by revin: yep ! Just do it before you put the shaft inside the poly. 1. remove old rubber 2. remove poly from freezer (few hrs in ) grease them up real good and put them in the a arm 3. get a drill and tap the same size and go for it! ( remember that the posistion you add them is with a load on the car) 4. I put a small piece of cardboard to catch the shavings from drilling. 5. slide the sleeve in and you are good to go !

looks like something we make and sell.....but people do copy our products:|

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3800 Supercharged w/ some mods
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/344502
West Coast Fiero

quote Originally posted by Oreif: True that this would not affect the cradle bushings as movement is nil, (Note: the manufacturer still states to properly lube the bushings even for the cradle.) But you did not refer to cradle bushings anywhere in your original post. You stated control arm bushings in the first sentence and never mentioned the cradle. To the average reader, it would appear you were referencing that you glued the outer sleeve on the control arm bushings. As for the control arm bushings allowing movement between the outer shell and the bushing, You have an incorrect understanding of poly bushings. They are designed to move. That is why the manufacturer instructs you to lube the inside AND outer sleeve. The bushing is being used as a "free-floating bushing" which reduces friction and allows the control arm to move accurately up and down without any excess flex or loading of the suspension. Most performance suspensions also use the "free-floating bushing" method especially when using poly or other stiff materials as a bushing.

I won't debate the point as your info was quoted from the manufacturer. Regardless I would feel very uncomfortable using the outer surface of a poly bushing as a support surface turning against a steel surface, and not a very smooth one at that! . This has to be an installation that will be prone to accelerated wear- plastic holding up a 100 of lbs or more and revolving inside steel ????

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-17-2007).]

Not only will you need to grease them at install, but you will need to Re-Grease poly occassionally or the squeeking will return .

Sleeper

Im not trying to be rude but you said people copy your products

Is this because they used a zerk fitting???? I didn't realize you had a patent on zerk fittings so that you were the only one allowed to use them.

quote Originally posted by 88FieroForm: Sleeper Im not trying to be rude but you said people copy your products Is this because they used a zerk fitting???? I didn't realize you had a patent on zerk fittings so that you were the only one allowed to use them.

He ment the grey carpet or the piece of cardboard....LOL

Sorry, I'm too lazy to read what everyone has typed, so maybe I'm repeating someone:

But when I did my poly install myself on my 88, the squeaked alittle at first. After a few thousand miles, they squeaked bigtime. I greased them all up pretty much equally front and rear (which really was as much grease I could get on the damn things). I think front control arms will have alittle more tendancy to squeak because they seem to go through alot more movement range through less wheel travel.

Mine squeak like hell, but I simply live with it. It really doesn't bug me that much.

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1991 GMC Syclone #449 - Stock
1988 Pontiac Fiero GT - 3.4L HT GM Crate Engine
2002 Yamaha V-Max - It makes me poop
1986 Honda Aero 50 - Chicks dig it

quote Originally posted by Sleeper: looks like something we make and sell.....but people do copy our products:|

You know... I'm sure the grease zerk patent holder would be a bit miffed at you for claiming that a grease zerk on a pivot point is your idea. You can't possibly believe that WCF was the first company to think of the idea of poly bushings, a grease zerk, and a control arm all combined into one unit; or that it was such a complicated idea, that few others could do such a modification.

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Nic



Beware the toes you step on today, for they may be attached to the ass you must kiss tomorrow.

Proud member of MIDWEST FIEROS!

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I won't debate the point as your info was quoted from the manufacturer. Regardless I would feel very uncomfortable using the outer surface of a poly bushing as a support surface turning against a steel surface, and not a very smooth one at that! . This has to be an installation that will be prone to accelerated wear- plastic holding up a 100 of lbs or more and revolving inside steel ????

The free-floating bushing is an aerospace technology from way back. There is nothing bad about it at all. With less friction and better geometery control the suspension will perform better.

I do agree with you on one point, That at least the bushing manufacturers should sell the outer sleeves. If they made sleeves to match the performance of the bushings, Then the set-up would be perfect. A stainless steel sleeve would be great, smooth, non-corrosive, strong, and they could even put in a grease fitting.

I used basically new sleeves on mine and since I used LN to remove the bushings, The inside was nice and smooth but I still used a wire brush to hone it out smooth. Technically the bushing isn't riding directly on the metal, It's riding on a thin layer of teflon grease. Just like the crank and cam of an engine ride on a thin layer of oil above the bearing surface.

I really don't see how you can "debate" the already proven science behind it all. Especially since many aircraft and spacecrafts use the same design on the connections for the many moveable surfaces.
Before you debate something, You should check out the science/physics behind it. Do a Google search on "free-floating bushings" and you will find many references and explanations on how it works and why it is an excellent way to connect moving parts.

With that grease fitting, was the hole drilled through the busing to the center of the bushing?

Yes, BUT without the center barrel shaft. You don't want to scratch that!
Also notice the cardboard "catcher". you want ALL of the fillings out of there!!!

[This message has been edited by revin (edited 05-18-2007).]

quote Originally posted by musicman_L7: or that it was such a complicated idea, that few others could do such a modification.

Dennis,

Please correct your post about using the Gorilla Glue on the control arm bushings.
It appears that others assumed you meant the control arm bushings as well and are now giving that advice.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/082846.html

I would really hate to hear someone screwed up their suspension by following incorrect advice.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-19-2007).]

How far is the hole drilled into the bushing?
Is the fitting a standard grease nipple with a tapped hole?

If I were to drill this hole with a load on the car.. how will i drill the sleeve? I don't understand how you would properly allign the drill hole to where you would want it when the suspension is loaded

Thank you for your input!

Matthew

[This message has been edited by Matthew_Fiero (edited 05-19-2007).]

I took it back to the shop. I had them disassemble the control arms and regrease the bushings. Wouldn't you believe it, the car doesn't squeak at all now.

Good for you. Glad to hear that everything worked out for you. So how do you like them?

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Good for you. Glad to hear that everything worked out for you. So how do you like them?

Now I have a completely rebuilt front and rear suspension. I did go with cheaper Gabriel shocks to make up for the rigidity of the poly bushings. This is a daily driver so it needs to be able to handle crappy city roads on the way to work.

I was hoping a complete rebuild of the front suspension would really make my steering much tighter in the steering area, and it did but I do still have some of that american car mushiness in the steering. I think the rack is just a bad design. The handling has vastly improved and I do love the ride compared to the horrid ride with the worn out suspension. It's nice to not hear clicks and clanks every time you hit a bump. Well, my doors and e brake cable still do that, but anyways. I think I might try installing a rear sway bar next to improve handling that last little bit more.

[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 05-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Now I have a completely rebuilt front and rear suspension. I did go with cheaper Gabriel shocks to make up for the rigidity of the poly bushings. This is a daily driver so it needs to be able to handle crappy cit roads on the way to work. I was hoping a complete rebuild of the front suspension would really make my much tighter in the steering area, and it did but I do still have some of that american car mushiness in the steering. I think the rack is just a bad design. The handling has vastly improved and I do love the ride compared to the horrid ride with the worn out suspension. It's nice to not hear clicks and clanks every time you hit a bump. Well, my doors and e brake cable still do that, but anyways. I think I might try installing a rear sway bar next to improve handling that last little bit more.

You may just need to replace the bushings in the steering rack also. This should tighten everything up pretty well. Do you get a lot of feedback coming through the steering wheel when going over bumps? If so you may need a new steering dampener shock also. Most of my fieros are very tight in the steering area. May be worth looking into at the very least.

Rodney Dickman sells the bushings (good prices too). You can get the stabilizer shock at Fierostore as well as many other places. You might even be able to find a Gabriel at the same place you got your suspension parts. Hope you get the car the way you want it. Good luck

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-25-2007).]

Now you have me all thinking on the ply for the front...lol. I have done the read with all poly, added the FS swaybar and now my back end is beautiful. I also have poly engine, tranny & dogbone which has been great also.

So now the front: I have a 2nd steering rack that has been rebuilt, there was a 2nd generation rack that had the metal bushing in it compared to the plastic, I did buy the Dickman's one but didn't have to use it. Have the full ploy kit from FS, new bellows, tie rods, ball joints, and the steering stabalizer, now need to install all of this. So all the reading on the post is getting me to think is I should do rubber for the control arms...hmm.

This is not my daily driver, I already lowered the car with new springs and KYB shocks as stock, so my thought as one person's above is the poly may be alright with a softer shock, and the roads in Vancouver are not so bad...let's see