hi all, here is my situation, im doing an engine swap, 3400 short block, 3.4 heads, fiero upper bla bla bla, anyway i do believe that all "lash" on the 60* V6's are done the same way...considering you cant adjust these while engine is running, as we all know...so what i think is say #1 cyl, tdc (it doesnt matter combustion stroke or whatever just as long as its tdc? right? then you turn the nut till the rocker just barly makes contact with the pushrod..then you turn the nut a half turn and its done????? please please revise my ideas here, as i did that and the nut was still finger loose....

thanks -Adam

bump????

Read this post.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/081015.html
I have the cyl. order you need to be at to set them. You need the #1 on the compression stroke, IE both valves closed or lifters down.

See if that help.

check this
This may help take the guess work out of vavle lashing.
Heres the old thread --I only copied out the method I
used as not to get things to confused. Another note is
you can switch the colors as I did after this and
changed the widest groove to white, for timing
reasons--non the less--you can change the colors
before you start or after for timing reasons, just
make sure that you change all 3 colors in a clock wise
rotation and write then down for later reference..

I did find out something interesting while I was
doing this, and that is you can mark your dampner with
3 colors to take out the guess work while lashing
vavles. There are 3 grooves on dampner, the widest one
is your timing groove, heres what I did allthough I
can see when #1 is TDC.

* . Find TDC for # 1 by hand cranking --look for # 1
lifters to stay motionless , then you`ll see # 6
lifters/pushrods just start to move up a little, look
at dampner and you`ll see the widest groove is very
close to --0--.On the timing tab, Mark that widest
groove with Black, turn clockwise and mark next groove
white, then next groove red. Then make a full 720
rotation to get back to # 1 TDC starting point.

1. Adjust # 1 with dampner at 0 and Black mark
showing.

2. Move black to white ==adjust # 2

3. move white to red=====adjust # 3

4. move red to black=====adjust # 4

5. move black to white ===adjust # 5

6. move white to red=====adjust # 6

Move red back to black and your at TDC for #1 which
was the first one you adjusted *Your Done*

quote Originally posted by Robert 2: check this This may help take the guess work out of vavle lashing. Heres the old thread --I only copied out the method I used as not to get things to confused. Another note is you can switch the colors as I did after this and changed the widest groove to white, for timing reasons--non the less--you can change the colors before you start or after for timing reasons, just make sure that you change all 3 colors in a clock wise rotation and write then down for later reference.. I did find out something interesting while I was doing this, and that is you can mark your dampner with 3 colors to take out the guess work while lashing vavles. There are 3 grooves on dampner, the widest one is your timing groove, heres what I did allthough I can see when #1 is TDC. * . Find TDC for # 1 by hand cranking --look for # 1 lifters to stay motionless , then you`ll see # 6 lifters/pushrods just start to move up a little, look at dampner and you`ll see the widest groove is very close to --0--.On the timing tab, Mark that widest groove with Black, turn clockwise and mark next groove white, then next groove red. Then make a full 720 rotation to get back to # 1 TDC starting point. 1. Adjust # 1 with dampner at 0 and Black mark showing. 2. Move black to white ==adjust # 2 3. move white to red=====adjust # 3 4. move red to black=====adjust # 4 5. move black to white ===adjust # 5 6. move white to red=====adjust # 6 Move red back to black and your at TDC for #1 which was the first one you adjusted *Your Done*

This is a good idea I wonder who came up with it LOL...

I took it somewhere on PFF don't remember
is it you

[This message has been edited by Robert 2 (edited 03-21-2007).]

Well sounds lovely...only thing is that my eng is on a stand and i have no crank dampner..i was told that it doesnt have to be compression stroke and that the valves are always closed on any TDC stroke. the only way i know is to stick a screwdriver down the sparkplug hole and rotate till screwdriver is at the peak...so you say adjust, i ask how to adjust? is it till the push rod just barly wont twist, or till it wont go up and down then a 1/4 or a 1/2 a turn tight????

My take on it..

1. Yes you should have to have the piston on the power stroke. The next TDC would be the end of the exhaust stroke and one or both valves might not be completely closed or the cam not at the lowest point.

2. You have to be careful what the manual says. Everyone is written for the pitch of the thread the writer is familiar with. A 350 has core thread the 2.8.s seem to have finer thread so you have to go a little more.

On my 3.4 I went a 1/2 turn and that was not enough so I'll porobably add another 1/2 . Of course that depend somewhat on what you determine is 0 lash.

I used the shake the rod sideways to feel the click method and added a little rotation until I felt I was at zero.

Many say 1 1/2.

thanks dodgeruner, well so you think 1.5 turns will do it?? i need to make it perfect as i will only have one chance. im building the short block + heads and sending it off to be installed, so if it fails on the installer im out HUGE $ $ $ $ $, are you sure 1.5 wont bottem the lifter out?..it feels like they bottom out on 2 turns past zero lash, i really wish more people would help me here im just so scared of screwing it up you know.. so you went 1/2 turn..how did you relize that that wasnt enough?? the thred pitch on my 3.4 heads are 1.00..350's are 1.25 so yeah hanes is all just a bunch of but anyway yod did say that more than a 1/2 was needed..would 1.5 be overkill??, again these are 3400 rollor lifters..i think there the same but i dont know????????

It HAS to be on the Power stroke. Not just at top dead center. As the piston comes up after the power stroke the exhaust valve is open/closing and the intake valve is opening to start the new cycle. You cannot adjust valve on the exhaust stroke.

I looked into this a lot as well (for my 2.8s) due to the conflicting info out there and I get to zero lash and then go 3/4 turn on my builds. I have lost a few bottom ends racing them (endurance events) but I have run the same heads for a while now.

Follow the advice in the earlier posts on which valves to adjust and when. I just wanted to clarify the piston position.

[This message has been edited by SCCAFiero (edited 03-21-2007).]

I feel mine are just a little light since it tends to rattle a little bit on start up and until it get warmed up some.
I'm close enough I might just go another 1/4 or 1/3 so will be at 3/4 or a bit more I don't think 1 turn would be to much as long as you aren't past 0 when you start.

yes, you have to be tdc on the power stroke. any other time there will be one valve open.
if your studs are the std fiero ones, than 1.5 turns from 0 lash is correct.
the biggest question is 0 lash. rotating is not the best way, it will spin with some compression, especially on new unloaded lifters. it is actually best to set the valves while the intake is still off so you can see the cup on the lifter, and see when it just starts to compress. if you already have the intake on, then use the rock side to side method, hold the rod up, and rock it so you feel it htting the sides of the cup in the lifter. as you tighten down, that motion will get smaller and then disappear. as soon as it disappears, that is 0 lash.
in the case where you are not sure you are at 0, as in the intake is on, and you can't feel the motion right, do your best, and derate the turns. use at least 1 turn tho. better too loose than too tight. if the cam, lifter,pushrods, rockers and valves are new, go to the 1.5, they will wear in and seat quickly, and after that will be on the loose side, but still in spec.
note, if you are using higher ratio than stock rockers, you would use less than the stock number of turns.

Yes, the 1.6 will take less turns. The 1.5 turns is for all new parts. I don't believe any more than 1 full turn is necessary for a reconditioning. It is really too bad about our plenum design. Adjusting with valve rocker clips and the engine running is really much better.

Arn

Thank you guys!. again im using used 3400 V6 lifters, used pushrods, used 1.6 ratio rockers, so with all the above posts this is the correct method here.....tell me yes or no or fix it for me here it goes, oh and theres no intake or balancer....

1. find cyl #1 put it at power tdc (both lifters in down posistion= thats power stroke)
2. find zero lash and adjust exaust valves to 3/4 a turn on cyl 1, 2, and ,3
3. then with #1 still at tdc adjust intake valves 3/4 a turn on cyl 1,5, and, 6
4. rotate crank 360* so that cyl #4 is at power stroke tdc
5. then adjust 3/4 a turn exaust valves on cyl 4, 5, 6
6. with it still at #4 tdc adjust intake valves at 3/4 a turn on cyl 2, 3, and, 4
7. turn crank over and over to make sure thres no binds or claps.

true or false?

Thanks -Adam

Since all your parts are used I'd say TRUE. Should do it.

oh also and about cyl configuration, damn hanes has me all screwed up!! it sais (hers the pic)

f
r 6 4 2
o
n 5 3 1
t
ok thats the exact pic, well the fiero eng sits opisite to that, and i cant for the life of me figure out how to reverse that in my head to figure out where all the cylenders would end up lol...does anyone get what im saying or do i need to start a new topic on this one???

[This message has been edited by 88 Silver Formula (edited 03-22-2007).]

L
E 6 4 2
F ------- WP
T 5 3 1

REAR

That's ref'd. in the car. WP = Water pump

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 03-22-2007).]

ok so your saying that in the car the cyl closest to the ignition coil is cyl # 5?? and the one closest to the battery is cyl # 2??? correct?? front of eng is the part with all the belts..back is trans?? correct? left your refering to looking atr the rear of the car so left means rear or eng??? if thats the case then how come hanes sais front is 6 and 5 but also you say rear is 6 and 5?? i dont get it lol.

yes the rear of the motor, which is always the tranny side are 6 and 5, 5 being on the trunk side, 6 by the window glass in the car.
on an engine stand, is the same, as the rear is still the rear.
Looking down form top of motor:
F
L
Y___6____4____2
W..............................water
H...............................pump
E____5____3____1
E
L

notice I included the offsets, the odd side is offset slightly foward on the motor.
I would also do 1 turn, not 3/4. those are still fine thread rockers, spec is 1.5 turns, but higher ratio rockers would make it 1.3 turns, allowing for finding 0 lash error, 1 turn should be more than safe enough, with 3/4 you might have some valve clatter.

thanks 1 turn then.. will do

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: the biggest question is 0 lash. rotating is not the best way, it will spin with some compression, especially on new unloaded lifters.

I am installing new lifters, pushrods, 1.6 rockers. When you state unloaded lifters , do you mean that you have not built up oil pressure ? Is it ok to adjust the lash with completely new unfilled lifters in the same way as described here.

0 lash and say 1 to 1.3 turns on the adjusting nut ?

[This message has been edited by kjelle69 (edited 01-02-2008).]

yes, new lifters have no oil loading. if you have the lower intake plenum still off, that is absolutely the best way to adjust them.

if you have it off, on the valve you are adjusting, hold the pushrod UP tight to the rocker, and slowly tighten down watching the lifter cup. there is a retaining clip that holds the cup in, looks like 2 fine wires on each side of the cup. when the cup just moves off them, that is 0. from there 1.3 turns for 1.6 rockers, but being a realistic guy, .3 is kinda hard to visuallize, 1 and 1/4 turns is 1.25 and likely is close enough.
NOTE!!!!!! look at the threading on the studs!!!! some aftermarker rockers restud the head and use sbc studs, these are COURSE thread, not fine thread, so you WILL NOT go 1.3. they should be about 1/2 turn. if you have a dial indicator you could put on the cup, you want I believe 0.035 or was it .040 compression of the cup for dead center of lifter travel. (you may want to check that number, I don;t have any ref material here at work and I think that is what I remember )

I hold the pushrod up against the rocker arm to take the slack out of the arm, then swing the bottom of the pushrod back and forth to feel it "clicking" in the lifter poppet cup, sort of like a spoon in a coffee cup. As I tighten the rocker nut the amount of distance that the bottom of the rocker swings between clicks decreases, then when zero lash is reached the clicking stops. I do not push down on the pushrod ever while doing this. At this point turn the rocker nut 1.5 turns to complete the lash adjustment. Note, I have dismantled lifters and measure the poppet travel as well as measuring the thread pitch distance, and 1.5 turns puts the poppet exactly in the middle of its travel.

JazzMan

and, just to save you some greif later: put your intake manifold gaskets on FIRST.

dont cut them later. they push rods go THRU them.

I think I will reuse my old stock studs and nuts. It's the Fiero stores CompCams 1.6 rockers. So if I reuse the stock ones there will be 1 full revolution of the nut and one quarter more. Interesting thougt about the dial indicator, I have one so i will try to measure it just out of curiosity.

When i dismatled everything I checked the lash of the valves to get a feeling of the condition of things, and all the pushrods where moveable, not clicking but still possible to rotate, so the lash must have been a bit on the loose side. (80000 Km's)

Good tip concerning the gaskets, it's easy to make mistakes, there is a lot of things to keep track of...

Because of the use of hydraulic lifters, the pushrods will always be easy to turn when the engine is off and the lifters have had time to bleed off oil pressure. This design uses oil pressure to take up the running lash in the system, unlike a mechanical lash setup where spring pressure always keeps the pushrods tight.

JazzMan