Well, since last saturday my car has been dead. First off the car is a 1987 Fiero GT Manual with 59k miles.

It started off when I moved it one morning because it was behind my mom's car. Started it up, ran perfect as always. Backed it out and fought to get it back up the driveway on the other side due to all the snow. Went back in went to sleep. I came back out a couple hours later and went to move it into the garage to let it thaw out. My brother had snowblowed half the driveway and literally buried the car in snow. Started it out and it was running really bad, misfiring and poping alot more than usual. It seems like it wanted to die out and I had to give it extra gas to keep it from stalling out. Once I got it into the garge I shut it off and checked the engine bay. The areas below both deck vents were covered in snow. Tried to start it again and it didn't want to start, it was firing but not enough to get it started. Went back inside and came back out a half hour later and it wouldn't start at all.

I assumed it was prolly an ignition system problem. Sprayed some starting fluid into the air box and it didn't fire. I used the GM factory service manual's procedure for troubleshooting the ignition. Everything pointed to the Ignition Control Module or Ignition Coil. So far we've replaced the Ignition Coil, Ignition Control Module, Dist. Cap and Rotor, Pickup Coil, coil wire and checked all the wire harneses between the coil and module. Also tried using another coil wire. The spark seems to be very weak even off the coil wire. It looks like a faint blue spark, is this normal or should it be more of a yellow zappy spark?

When we let it sit for a few hours and try to start it again it'll fire once or twice, but once the gas get's the spark plugs wet they stopped firing the cylinders. We have taken both the old and new modules to Autozone and had them tested, both were good. Used an ohm meter to test both the new and old coil, both tested good. Even went and got a third coil from another store of another brand and it was still not firing.

At first we though it could have been the pickup coil because it was partially falling apart and the connection to the module was all grungy and broke. We replace the pickup coil and nothing.


I'm out of idea on this. I've talked to a few mechanics and they suggested that my timing chain may have slipped or even it may be flooded. But I took out a spark plug and it didn't seem like there was enough gas in the cylinder to be flooded. Also the engine only has 59k miles and the v6's have the steel timing gears so it's unlikely it's skipping.

If anyone has any ideas I would greatly appreciate this. The weather is finally getting nicer and i miss my car. I'm sick of bumin rides to school too :P

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'87 Fiero GT

[This message has been edited by ub3rduck (edited 02-22-2007).]

Never underestimate the value of good plug wires.
But you also need to check the wiring that runs up to the coil, module, etc. It could have become soaked from the snow, which wouldn't be helping anything if the insulation were cracked. The same goes for all the rest of the wiring, but that's the place to start.

Snow filled the space under the decklid vents? The C500 connector is right there, might want to disconnect it, dry it out, put some dielectric grease on it too. Spray it with some silicone spray to displace any water. Also, how is your battery? Do you have top posts on it? Could they have made a connection with the snow and fried it?

I was always taught the spark should be bright blue and strong. White or yellow was an indication of a weaker temp spark.

probably wet ignition.

Your’s could be a common problem and don’t cost anything to check.
Try this:
Watch the tach when cranking if it don’t move you're not getting pulses from the distributor. If so, it could be a faulty module in it or more likely simply corroded connectors at the base of the distributor. Reseating those connectors a few times could clean the pins some and also do the same to the connectors on the coil etc. These cars are old, and old connectors corrode. Such can also manifest itself as intermittent misfires, and engine cutouts.
BTW: lots of folks keep replacing modules and coils thinking they are bad because the new ones FIXED the problem, when in actuality the fact that they simply unpluged the connectors and repluged them into the new unit cleaned the contacts enough to make it work again, at least for a while. It's smart, to replace them with new ones. Cliphouse.com has them.
BTW: Cliphouse has those connectors

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[IMG]



Trueleo.com/fiero.htm
RSpiderII@aol.com

quote Originally posted by Francis T: Your’s could be a common problem and don’t cost anything to check. Try this: Watch the tach when cranking if it don’t move you're not getting pulses from the distributor. If so, it could be a faulty module in it or more likely simply corroded connectors at the base of the distributor. Reseating those connectors a few times could clean the pins some and also do the same to the connectors on the coil etc. These cars are old, and old connectors corrode. Such can also manifest itself as intermittent misfires, and engine cutouts.

The tach moves when cranking. We also connected a test light to the distributor and tach filters and everything according to how the GM Manual describes and we are getting the pulses. We also took apart most of the connectors and cleaned them the best we could.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: Snow filled the space under the decklid vents? The C500 connector is right there, might want to disconnect it, dry it out, put some dielectric grease on it too. Spray it with some silicone spray to displace any water. Also, how is your battery? Do you have top posts on it? Could they have made a connection with the snow and fried it?

Me and my dad thought the same thing. It happened just as the snow hit it and started to melt from the first time i started it. I'll try cleaning out the connectors. As far as the battery it has side posts and was covered in snow, but the battery has enough juice to crank the starter so it should have enough to fire the engine. Plus we've had a battery charger on it for a while and tried cranking with the charger on too.


Thanks for the help so far! I'll post again tomarrow after I have a chance to work on it agian.

[This message has been edited by ub3rduck (edited 02-22-2007).]

Did you try new plugs yet?

The plugs are fairly new so i'd be suprized if that was the problem. Regardless we got a new coil wire and plugged a spark tester right into that too eliminate the possibilty of a bad cap. The spark still seemed weak. Plus I highly doubt all 6 plug wires went bad all at the same time. That'd be just too weird.

Did you already say that you had tried a new ignition coil?

I would clean the pos. and neg. connections on the battery, I would also run a new ground from the battery to the chassis and then to the engine block.

Also, maybe you have a bad ground around the ignition parts (coil?)

J.

At this point I would try to pull the codes, let's see what the ECM thinks may be wrong.
Go through and double check all of the fuses, fuel pump or injector fuses could be bad.
Weak spark makes me think about bad engine grounds, double check your negative battery cable to both engine and chasis (battery support) and also your engine to hinge ground strap.

You mentioned that you replaced your pick up coil, that requires removing the distributor and reinstalling it into the engine. Did you install in the exact postion as it came out?

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Did you already say that you had tried a new ignition coil?

Yea, two actually. From different stores and of different brands.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: I would clean the pos. and neg. connections on the battery, I would also run a new ground from the battery to the chassis and then to the engine block. Also, maybe you have a bad ground around the ignition parts (coil?) J.

I'll try cleaning the battery ground (neg.) next time I go out to the garage. We hooked up a ground wire to the igniton coil and grounded it to one of the intake manifold bolts and various other parts and still no start.

quote Originally posted by jetman: At this point I would try to pull the codes, let's see what the ECM thinks may be wrong. Go through and double check all of the fuses, fuel pump or injector fuses could be bad. Weak spark makes me think about bad engine grounds, double check your negative battery cable to both engine and chasis (battery support) and also your engine to hinge ground strap. You mentioned that you replaced your pick up coil, that requires removing the distributor and reinstalling it into the engine. Did you install in the exact postion as it came out?

I plugged my laptop into the ALDL connector and used WinALDL to try and pull any codes. WinALDL didn't detect any errors codes or flags and the 'Service Engine' light has never come on.

As far as checking the fuel pump and injectors I don't think they are the problem. We sprayed starting fluid into the air box and not even a grumble from the engine. I'm assuming from this that's it's not the fuel system because it won't even ignite the starting fluid.

Yes, when we removed the distributor we reinstalled it in the exact same position. We used a 4 foot straight edge ruler and attached it to the distributor and marked where the ruler ends 2 feet out from the distributor and made sure to line it up exactly the same way as we took it out.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: Snow filled the space under the decklid vents? The C500 connector is right there, might want to disconnect it, dry it out, put some dielectric grease on it too. Spray it with some silicone spray to displace any water. Also, how is your battery? Do you have top posts on it? Could they have made a connection with the snow and fried it?

I also took apart the C500 connector by the battery and although it was covered in black grease it looked faily clean. There was a bit of corrosion around the seal of the connector but the plug itself looked fine. I plugged and unplugged it a few times to try and clean off the connectors and it still didn't even try and start

Right now all I can think of is that the timing is somehow off. I was trying to get under the car to see the harmonic balancer and try and line up the timing marks but I can't get the wheel well liner off. All the holding pins are being very stubborn and I can't get them off. I'm gonna eat some lunch as head back out to work on it some more when I'm done.

Thanks again for all the help!


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'87 Fiero GT Manual
59k Miles
Exhaust, Suspension and Custom Interior

[This message has been edited by ub3rduck (edited 02-23-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ub3rduck: The plugs are fairly new so i'd be suprized if that was the problem. Regardless we got a new coil wire and plugged a spark tester right into that too eliminate the possibilty of a bad cap. The spark still seemed weak. Plus I highly doubt all 6 plug wires went bad all at the same time. That'd be just too weird.

It only takes a couple, mine was doing that same thing for the past 2 days, I changed out # 5 & # 3 and it started right up and runs like a top.....

Do you hear the fuel pump prime up for two seconds when you turn the key to the on position?

quote Originally posted by jetman: Do you hear the fuel pump prime up for two seconds when you turn the key to the on position?

Yup, you can hear the fuel pump runnign and i can smell gas coming out of the exhaust when you try and start it so it's definatly getting fuel.


We tried hotwiring the car from the battery to the coil eliminating everything but the distributor and coil ect. and it still didn't start. So it's definatly not something with the car's wiring to the ignition system.

I also checked the timing by lining up the timing mark on harmonic balancer and timing cover and the rotor was pointed at cylinder 1, meaning the timing is not off.

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'87 Fiero GT Manual
59k Miles
Exhaust, Suspension and Custom Interior

[This message has been edited by ub3rduck (edited 02-23-2007).]

Let's see, car running fine until snowed under, wouldn't start. Suspected pick up coil, ignition coil, module. Car was running so you have compression, you got gas, that leaves ignition.
Double check the plug wiring,,,,



I found an old bookmarked thread for you, this may help too.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...020511-2-018190.html

I can admit that I've messed up plug wires before, believe me its easy to do. Go to TDC on #1 cylinder compression stroke and recheck your rotor pointing to #1 post on the cap and that plug wire goes to #1 cylinder. (Compression stroke will blow your finger off the plug hole)

Weak spark or not, you really should be about there to fire.

Weak spark can be a problem: I helped a neighbor change a broken timing belt on a Volvo. The car had not started in about 3 months. After finishing the belt we cranked (and cranked) the engine but it would not start. Starting fluid had no effect. I pulled a plug and watched the spark as he cranked. The spark was white and somewhat weak. We then trickle charged the battery overnight. The car fired right off the next morning.

uhh, not to be a smart ass or anything...check the fuses.
if thats good, start doing a continuity test on anything you suspect to have been hit by the snow.

also like everyone has suggested, change the plugs. its cheap, not that hard and it wont 'add' to the problem, it may actually fix it.

when you start cranking on the engine again, disconnect the connector that goes to the injectors and csi, and hold the pedal down. crank the engien about 10 times over. that will clear any gas thats been filling the cylinders and possibly cause a no spark.

also check all the fuseable links....they could have popped too.

It did sputter and run when you pulled it into the garage.

You have spark/gas/compression?

Any chance the exhaust is plugged up?

have gas in the tank? hey, it happened to me. I had to get TOWED home a 10th of a mile and spend 2 hours under the hood to realize this!

hey guy before me....get a new screen name! ha

Check gas, I had a similar problem, started running like crap, got it to start and got about a quarter block spitting and sputtering, pulled onto the side of the road, shut off car and tried to restart it. I had the wife turning it over while I checked everything, I smelled gas, so I didn't thank about it being out, and it showed a quarter tank. I ended up calling a friend for a tow, he brought gas, said to go ahead and check it, put a gallon in, and after a little turning over she started right up. Drove to the nearest station and filled her up

I'm not a mechanic, but I think the injectors still get gas, but its first come first serve, so the #1 or whatever would still be spitting gas, but without the others to help it is a lost cause.

Brad

quote Originally posted by Mike OHIO: hey guy before me....get a new screen name! ha

hehehe---Hey Mike you been staying busy ... You guys better get toghther on whos answering what in tech or posting else where on the forum, they may get you 2 mixed up...lol... I`m just kidding around with you, it is a little odd though, maybe someone could come up with 3900superfast...
mike-ohio Welcome to the forum ... Or is that Mike OHIO

quote Originally posted by Hudini: Also, how is your battery? Do you have top posts on it? Could they have made a connection with the snow and fried it?

you can't fry a battery in that fashion, 12v is just not enough to arc through water... water, suprisingly has more resistance to electricity than you think. In fact, when i do a battery service at work, i dump tons of water over it with the hose, so ive done it to many cars without a problem.... just some FYI

[This message has been edited by Darkmage (edited 02-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: I'm not a mechanic, but I think the injectors still get gas, but its first come first serve, so the #1 or whatever would still be spitting gas, but without the others to help it is a lost cause. Brad

That part's not exactly right, but the point is still valid. If there's not any fuel in the tank, the fuel lines will lose pressure. The result will be injectors dribbling what little gas they have left, or pumping out gas smelling air. The engine's only going to run if it has a good spray.

If the problem was no gas or anythign with the fuel system it would still fire when you spray starter fluid in the intake. As I said in my first post we tried that and not even a single fire.

Thanks for all the help, I'm trying everything you guys are suggesting and I really appreciate the help so far!

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'87 Fiero GT Manual
59k Miles
Exhaust, Suspension and Custom Interior

I thought that you could check for gas by depressing the Von Schrader valve on the fuel rail that is sticking out from under the plehnum on the passenger side of the engine? If the fuel pump primes up, you should get a good squirt, true? Ok just how much gas do you have?

The problem is not the fuel system. The car has over 3/4 of a tank of gas.

Yea, no gas would make alot of sense and is of course something I should check. But I have already checked it and it has 3/4 of a tank of gas. The fuel pump runs. The car does not fire when sprayed with starting fluid. You can smell the gas coming out of the exhaust/cylinders. The car is getting fuel.

Unless something very wrong with the car, there is nothing wrong with the fuel system. The problem seems to be with the ignition.

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'87 Fiero GT Manual
59k Miles
Exhaust, Suspension and Custom Interior

[This message has been edited by ub3rduck (edited 02-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ub3rduck: Unless something very wrong with the car, there is nothing wrong with the fuel system. The problem seems to be with the ignition.

I used that same argument with myself. Checked every stinking thing in the ignition system. Turned out to be a clogged fuel filter. lol

So have you put a timing light on it with the A-B jumpered to check the timing?

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 02-24-2007).]

Pull one of your spark plugs out, ground it out to your engine while you're cranking the engine. If you do have spark at the plug then you've narrowed it down to ignition timing or plug wires reinstalled incorrectly. You need to double check #1 cylinder TDC( fat marks on harmonic ballancer) , #1 plug wire on cap in relation to rotor. You can try rotating the distributor a bit to advance it or retard it enough to catch fire. Double check your ECM fuse again, those like to blow out.
Are you getting anything at all? Any backfires?

Any new news?

My thoughts are that if you're getting spark and the engine is not firing up, try this to double check the timing. Pull the #1 plug out, trace the plug wire back to the cap, mark the distributor body and pull off the cap. Have someone crank the engine while you have your finger over the #1 plug hole, your finger should be blown off the plug hole as the rotor points to the #1 plug wire mark on your distributor.

If the timing is indead way off, you will need to pull the distributor out and reinstall it with the rotor pointing directly at #1 on distributor (the mark that you previously made) with the engine at TDC compression #1 cylinder. You know where TDC compression is because that is where your finger blows off the #1 plug hole, now "fine tune" TDC by alignning the fat timing mark on the harmonic ballancer on to the timing marks and reinstall your distributor.

Keep us posted, ok?

Sounds just like what happened to mine. Worn timing chain slipped. $2,500 later it runs great now.

1 tooth off the chain or dist is enough to keep it from starting
Just my .02
Not enough fuel to cause some where correct combustion will smell like fuel out of exhaust.
Weak spar will not ignite fuel.
low fuel pressure will cause fuel issues as well.
Water in fuel will cause this as well.
spray starter fluid with water in fuel will not spark at all.
Water soaked plug wires will send spark else ware.

I had a 2.9 ford set so many codes I could not chase problem
I removed intake turned it over it would of corse scream as there were no way to restrict air into intake.
put upper intake back on for a no start at all. after week of pulling hair out foud it was spark
going to the intake no down the plug wires. even tho the was spark at the plugs. there was
enough voltage leaking from plug wires to keep it a no start. I repalced plug wires. ran great.

JMO

I`m sticking with 1 or more of the plugs..

A V6 will run on 5 cylinders. Or 4. Or probably 3. And even if just 1 plug is firing because 5 spark plugs and plug wires had a random failure at the exact same time, you'd still hear that one firing but failing to keep the engine running.

A couple of years ago, I pulled into the garage and shut the car down and then when I went to restart it, It would turn over but that all. Had all kind of advice. To make a long story short. Replace the coil and then retry. Let us know when the problem is solve

The car was runnning fine until recently, got snowed under, then started running poorly. He replaced coil, module, pick up coil and a couple of wires. He says he's got spark but we don't know if its at the plugs. On the limited feedback so far, I would have to say ignition timing is off, perhaps 180* out if he's got spark at the plugs.
Its hard to say until ub3rduck checks in with results.

quote Originally posted by Jax184: A V6 will run on 5 cylinders. Or 4. Or probably 3. And even if just 1 plug is firing because 5 spark plugs and plug wires had a random failure at the exact same time, you'd still hear that one firing but failing to keep the engine running.

But a V6 won`t START on one or two or three plugs being bad....

It should. I've seen a V4 running on two cylinders.
But even then, even if but a single cylinder is firing due to the other 5 plugs and wires all failing at once due to some bizzare fluke in the laws of probability, it should be possible to hear the engine catching on that one cylinder.

The key word here is start---not running--if the car is running and warmed a little, and you pull off a couple / few plug wires, it will keep running, but cold starting it can be a different story--I`m not saying all 6 plugs are bad, but they are worth checking into--mine did this the other nite--2 plugs where bad and the car would not cold start, fuel doesn`t seem to be the problem , he said the ignition checked out, has bascially eleminated everything but the plugs and considering where he lives and the cold in-volved there may be a chance one or 2 of the plugs went ka-put, maybe not, but still worth checking. I didn`t hear the engine catching the 4 cylinders that had good plugs in them.

One thing for sure, we sure do have alot of good members here offering knowledgable advice, now if ub3rduck will chime in here, collectively we can get him up and running. I still want to know how far he is getting spark, all the way to the plugs or not? That little piece of info will help determine what is going on.