Anyone know the best replacement bulbs for the instrument cluster?
Brighter is better, but the wattage must stay the same or be less.
Thanks.

What model car? The 86 and later have backlit gauges which are much easier to see than teh 84 and 85. However they all take the same bulbs.

Rodney Dickman has brighter replacement bulbs that do not generate much more heat then the originals. The link to his web page is in the Fiero Parts Vendor header above.

I've replaced the clusters in my 85s with backlit ones from 86s with great success.

Good luck

They have 194 led lights instead of the regular 194 bulbs they don't consume that much and should be much brighter.

standard oem 194 wedge bulbs were 3w
i replaced all of mine with the same wedge bulb but it had a differant part number and it was 5w HUGE differance
i cant remember the part bumber, sorry

The little incandescent bulbs like used in the dash lose brightness as they age. Simply replacing the old bulbs with a new set of the exact same number (194) will brighten up the dash considerably.

To make it perfect, look for Wagner PC194 bulbs. That's the 194 bulb and a new twist-in socket pre-assembled and ready to install. That way you not only get bright new bulbs but also replace those troublesome sockets at the same time. Highly recommended.

www.rodneydickman.com/n54.html

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: The little incandescent bulbs like used in the dash lose brightness as they age. Simply replacing the old bulbs with a new set of the exact same number (194) will brighten up the dash considerably. To make it perfect, look for Wagner PC194 bulbs. That's the 194 bulb and a new twist-in socket pre-assembled and ready to install. That way you not only get bright new bulbs but also replace those troublesome sockets at the same time. Highly recommended.

yes, also just taking them out and cleaning the thick layer of dirt off the bulbs makes a huge differance aswell

quote Originally posted by ricksmastermix: Anyone know the best replacement bulbs for the instrument cluster? Brighter is better, but the wattage must stay the same or be less. Thanks.

It's physically impossible to get a brighter bulb at the same or less wattage unless you switch to LED's (not sure if they would be brighter). This is a physical fact.

You could try cleaning the bulbs to get all the dirt off them - may brighten them up some.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: You could try cleaning the bulbs to get all the dirt off them - may brighten them up some.

Just wanted to add my two cents here...

Whenever I've taken apart a tail light, a lense, or a gauge cluster, the old lights almost always are covered in a very fine, thin layer of dirt that you really don't see. All that's required is just to wipe them down with a rag, and it makes all the difference in the world in terms of brightness. (especially on tail-lights).

I guess because of the heat, any dust particles that surround it might end up melting to the bulb over time... just a thought.

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Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car)
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2) 5-Speed
1984 Porsche 944 5-Speed
1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB)
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: It's physically impossible to get a brighter bulb at the same or less wattage unless you switch to LED's (not sure if they would be brighter). This is a physical fact.

Oh man, I wanted to say that! I want to work my same job, but less hours and bring home more money...

To prove I'm not in this thread just to be a smart A$$, I have a box full of dash bulbs if anybody needs them. Just let me know.

Just to be clear. A halogen lamp, an incondescent lamp and an LED lamp, all 2 watts, do not necessarily have the same brightness.

I think I'm going with the new GE Nighthawk 194NH lamps. They are 20% brighter than the standard 194 (According to the manufacturer.) Anyone had experience with these new bulbs?

Yes and they are much brighter they are the only bulbs for me.

Tony
86 gt

As mentioned above, there is no free lunch. GE is playing games with specs. Here's a lamp-life "Rule of Thumb" from Sylvania:

5% Over-Voltage

• Half the life
  
• 15% higher luminous flux
  
• 8% higher power consumption
  
• 3% higher current
  

5% Under-Voltage

• Twice the life
  
• 15% lower luminous flux
  
• 8% lower power consumption
  
• 3% lower current
  

The standard 194 lamp is rated at 2500 hours. The NIGHTHAWK™ is rated at 1500 hours, a reduction of 40%. What happened to the missing 1000 hours? See over-Voltage rule of thumb. GE simply designed the lamp to operate at around 13.5 Volts. When operated at 14 Volts, it is brighter but lamp life is reduced and more power is used.

The standard lamp power consumption is rated at 3.8 Watts while the NIGHTHAWK™ is rated at 4 Watts. Doesn't sound like much difference but that's a 5% increase. The NIGHTHAWK™ should be brighter but you don't get something for nothing as this Sylvania chart shows:



I don't think you will see the "up to 20% increase" advertised on this NIGHTHAWK™ lamp either. The stock lamp rating is 25.14 Lumens while the NIGHTHAWK™ claims 27. That doesn't seem like a 20% jump but maybe it's not a linear scale.

quote Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that.

Homer Simpson

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 02-06-2007).]

When driving at night I usualy have my interior lights dimmed, to inprove my vision while driving.
While not driving, I use the Conveinience Lights. IMHO extra brightness on the guages isn't necessary unless you need to take a photo of the guages.

------------------
Ol' Paint, 88 Base coupe auto.
Turning white on top, like owner.
Leaks a little, like owner.
Doesn't smoke, unlike owner

quote Originally posted by spark1: The standard 194 lamp is rated at 2500 hours. The NIGHTHAWK™ is rated at 1500 hours, a reduction of 40%. What happened to the missing 1000 hours? See over-Voltage rule of thumb. GE simply designed the lamp to operate at around 13.5 Volts. When operated at 14 Volts, it is brighter but lamp life is reduced and more power is used. The standard lamp power consumption is rated at 3.8 Watts while the NIGHTHAWK™ is rated at 4 Watts. Doesn't sound like much difference but that's a 5% increase. The NIGHTHAWK™ should be brighter but you don't get something for nothing as this

Correct, they are brighter, but no one really reads the specs as meantioned above (it's all about marketing).

The 'power law' always comes into effect: P (power in watts) = I (current in amps) x V (voltage in volts).

As stated, when the bulb operates at 14 volts, it will be brighter, but the power consumption will go up (as stated 3.8w to 4.0w). There is no way around this. Formula wheel here: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm

Another thing of note, a bulb may also 'seem' brighter (given the exact same specs), but is not the case. Now days they can create different colors of light which make it seem like it is brighter (natural white light (ie: daylight bulbs) vs the standard bulb).

Does anyone know where i can get Wagner PC194 bulbs? I went to the local autozone and all they carried was Sylvania 194 bulbs. Are the Sylvania bulbs any good, and if so does the bulb just pull out of the twist plug socket?

For a brighter dash, first fix your dimmer transistor. Permanent fix here.
After doing this to my duke with front lit gauges, I replaced the lights that lit the dash with LEDs. I got them here. Search for "Metal Heat Sink" for the kind I got. I got them in Amber. Now my duke gauges are nice an bright. My other Fiero, with back lit gauges, is bright enough (with a fixed transistor) with the original 194-type bulbs.

One thing to remember here is that watts, while having some impact, don't directly relate to the light given off. That is lumens and different bulbs that have all the same wattage and voltage specs can and do give off different levels of lumens. Alot of that has to do with how the bulb itself is made. Different coatings on the inside of the bulb will make a difference. If I remember correctly you can see this mostly with different floresent tubes. Several of them will be rated the same on the power side but will very as to the lumens and type of light they emit. Years ago when I sold electrical supplies we had a large book we could order bulbs from and you would be surprised at the different lumen levels that you could get. (I think shape even had something to do with it.)

quote Originally posted by zmcdonal: Does anyone know where i can get Wagner PC194 bulbs? I went to the local autozone and all they carried was Sylvania 194 bulbs. Are the Sylvania bulbs any good, and if so does the bulb just pull out of the twist plug socket?

Yes, the 194 is a push in type bulb, same ones as used on the side marker lights. I bought a box full that had the little twist plug sockets already on the bulb. GE 194's. Sylvania is a good brand name too. No bad issues that I've heard.

Can the brightness of the LED type lights for the instrument cluster be adjusted with the dimmer?

The reason I ask is I bought a dimmer for a light switch in my home and it wouldn't work.

The guy at home depot said only incandescent bulbs are dimmable. Is this true?

Apparently I was using one of those energy saving twisty fluorescent bulbs.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Just wanted to add my two cents here... Whenever I've taken apart a tail light, a lense, or a gauge cluster, the old lights almost always are covered in a very fine, thin layer of dirt that you really don't see. All that's required is just to wipe them down with a rag, and it makes all the difference in the world in terms of brightness. (especially on tail-lights). I guess because of the heat, any dust particles that surround it might end up melting to the bulb over time... just a thought.

Not complete true. Wiping off the bulb may make a significant difference, but halogen bulbs actually deposit a film on the interior of the bulb over time. I don't have any numbers for this, but I'm sure that replacing 20yr old bulbs would make more of a difference than just cleaning would.

quote Originally posted by ricksmastermix: Just to be clear. A halogen lamp, an incondescent lamp and an LED lamp, all 2 watts, do not necessarily have the same brightness. I think I'm going with the new GE Nighthawk 194NH lamps. They are 20% brighter than the standard 194 (According to the manufacturer.) Anyone had experience with these new bulbs?

yes and no. Brightness is measured in lumens. a 2 wall LED in your dashboard will blind you like a headlight. but be bright in a spot only. Incandesant bulbs shine in 270 degrees instead of 18-27 degrees. they spread out the light all around for even illumination.

If you want bright spots on your dash, led lighting is great. if you want a good looking dash that is brighter get 194NH, but they do run hotter. In a regular bulb you can not get more light for free, you gotta pay for it in heat and power draw.

Oh and you will not find anyone selling 2 watt 194 bulbs. only the cheezy multiple small led ones that are only good for indicator replacements (except alt, that HAS to be a bulb)

Halogens drop deposits inside the bulb fast. I replace my taillights on the daily driver cars every 2 years because they get dirty looking inside the bulb. replacements look brighter and that is what I want, to blind the guy behind me with my brake lights.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 10-11-2007).]

quote Incandesant bulbs shine in 270 degrees instead of 18-27 degrees. they spread out the light all around for even illumination.

The led bulbs I referenced in my previous message have a nearly 180 degree pattern.

quote Originally posted by perceptionist: Can the brightness of the LED type lights for the instrument cluster be adjusted with the dimmer? The reason I ask is I bought a dimmer for a light switch in my home and it wouldn't work. The guy at home depot said only incandescent bulbs are dimmable. Is this true? Apparently I was using one of those energy saving twisty fluorescent bulbs.

LEDs are dimmable by reducing the current through them. In home light fixtures the LED driver electronics of a high-end LED lighting assembly would sense the reduced voltage (chopped) from a typical dimmer circuit and reduce the current independently through the LEDs to reduce brightness. A simple LED replacement bulb just has resistors to drop the current through the LED elements, and as a result it's not likely that they'll dim through the full range that regular bulbs will. Instead they'll get slightly dimmer then suddenly just go out entirely as the current drops below the threshold.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: it's not likely that they'll dim through the full range that regular bulbs will. Instead they'll get slightly dimmer then suddenly just go out entirely as the current drops below the threshold. JazzMan

I don't think you would even notice them getting dimmer if it would even work at all. Most inexpensive dimmers are designed to work off resistive loads and LEDs are going to not work with them. They are pretty much full on or full off.

If you ever drive behind a car with LED turn signals it's almost starling that the lights go from full brightness to off and back to full brightness in a fraction of a second. Incandescent bulbs warm up to full brightness then cool off back to nothing. It's a lot more soothing.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by pswayne: The led bulbs I referenced in my previous message have a nearly 180 degree pattern.

but you are not going to find a 2 watt LED lamp in that base style (nor would you want to) they also need a huge heat sink to keep them from frying. anything you will find that fit in the dashboard light sockets will have a tiny spotlight pattern and give you that effect.

Honestly the most efficient per lumen's output compared to watts consumed, Compact fluorescent beats the ever living hell out of LED's. I just cant find CF lamps that fit in my dashboard for instrument lighting. you COULD retrofit the Cold Cathode lamps inside the instrument cluster. That would give even and incredibly bright instrument lighting. Problem is that cold temps will make it take minutes before they come on. and life in high vibration environments are low.

quote Originally posted by timgray: but you are not going to find a 2 watt LED lamp in that base style (nor would you want to) they also need a huge heat sink to keep them from frying. anything you will find that fit in the dashboard light sockets will have a tiny spotlight pattern and give you that effect. Honestly the most efficient per lumen's output compared to watts consumed, Compact fluorescent beats the ever living hell out of LED's. I just cant find CF lamps that fit in my dashboard for instrument lighting. you COULD retrofit the Cold Cathode lamps inside the instrument cluster. That would give even and incredibly bright instrument lighting. Problem is that cold temps will make it take minutes before they come on. and life in high vibration environments are low.

Though technically, 2W LEDs put out way more light than a 2W incandescent bulb could.

The easiest way to dim LEDs is to use high frequency duty cycle switching.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by pswayne: For a brighter dash, first fix your dimmer transistor. Permanent fix here. After doing this to my duke with front lit gauges, I replaced the lights that lit the dash with LEDs. I got them here. Search for "Metal Heat Sink" for the kind I got. I got them in Amber. Now my duke gauges are nice an bright. My other Fiero, with back lit gauges, is bright enough (with a fixed transistor) with the original 194-type bulbs.

Doing this should be the first step to a brighter dash.

And for you doubters out there there is a replacement bulb that is brighter without causing any problems with heat. Namely this one or something similar.
http://www.seagulllighting....eCatalog.cfm?SS=9732

These are sold in home lighting stores and are made for undercabnet lighting. They are a 5W xenon/halogen bulb and are a direct drop in replacement. I came accross them a few years ago as I work at a lighting store. The xenon gas allows a whiter/brighter light while also conserving energy and producing less heat then a standard 5 watt halogen bulb. They will produce a slightly higher heat then the stock 3 watt bulb but not enough to cause any problems. I have been running them in several cars for a couple years now with no problems at all and I have not ever heard a complaint from any of the 15 sets I sold earlier.

I also tested a 10W version but ran into problems with melting bulb holders. Power was not a problem but the heat was. I also have 3W versions that work great for the idiot lights. They keep the power use lower then the stock bulbs.

If anyone is interested I can get them at a discount and offer them for sale again. I sold them for a while on here but ended up losing money on them so I stopped. If there is enough interest I can offer them again for a buck a piece (retail 1.60 each). Free shipping with min order of 6.

I did my homework when I sold them before and can get any info or before and after pics if anyone wants it. Totals for these bulbs in a fiero go like this.

6 - dash illumination
2 - Aux gauge illumination
10 - idiot lights (not necissary to change)
4 - side marker lights (absolutely recommended - huge difference)
2 - courtesy lights (Optional)
4 - dome (optional)
1 - under hood (optional)

If there is interest again I will start another thread in the mall. I will offer up 2 free sets (6-8 bulbs for dash illumination depending on year and options) for testing and feedback to the first two people to PM me and ask. Pack of 12 (dash illumination + aux gauges and side marker) for 12 bucks shipped. I can ship world wide which can be a real bonus for those that cannot buy them overseas because of some of the local laws and regulations. I have a set running in sweden right now (Intel!). PM if interested.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 10-11-2007).]

If there is interest again I will start another thread in the mall. I will offer up 2 free sets (6-8 bulbs for dash illumination depending on year and options) for testing and feedback to the first two people to PM me and ask. Pack of 12 (dash illumination + aux gauges and side marker) for 12 bucks shipped. I can ship world wide which can be a real bonus for those that cannot buy them overseas because of some of the local laws and regulations. I have a set running in sweden right now (Intel!). PM if interested.

You have a PM my friend

First free set goes to Zmcdonal for his interest in my original thread.

Second free set goes to eldervampire for his indy and being so damn quick.

These will go out on monday and I will also start a new sale thread in the mall for those who are intersted.... and those who arent.

EDIT: I am also going to send a free set to ricksmastermix in responce to this thread. Send me your info and I will get them right out to you monday. You asked what the best is and now you shall receive.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 10-11-2007).]

quote but you are not going to find a 2 watt LED lamp in that base style (nor would you want to) they also need a huge heat sink to keep them from frying. anything you will find that fit in the dashboard light sockets will have a tiny spotlight pattern and give you that effect.

Well, all I can say is I have the ones I referenced previously in my car. They work, the dash is much brighter, and there's no spotting.
Edit: PS. The dimmer works perfectly also. They dim a little faster than ordinary bulbs (not as much rotation of the wheel needed), but they don't suddenly go out -- they just dim.

[This message has been edited by pswayne (edited 10-12-2007).]

Okay I am interested for my Indy because I already have upgraded the bulbs once and they are still hard to see.

There was a thread a few years ago by someone from Canada who attached led's to the instrument cluster - 6 each for the speedometer and tach, and I think three each for each other instrument. I've been trying to find this thread but so far I can't find it. He powered the LED's with wires to the normal bulb sockets. He used 12V LED's.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: I also tested a 10W version but ran into problems with melting bulb holders. Power was not a problem but the heat was.

These sound ideal for the PONTIAC in GT tail-lights. Did you test them there?

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3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

Anything further on these? I didn't see them offered in the Mall yet.

Here is the to the thread I started in the mall on these.
//www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/040227.html#p0

Sorry for the delay, our DC was out of stock for a little while. No worries now though, there are thousands available.
Questions and comments are always welcome.

quote Originally posted by fierosound: These sound ideal for the PONTIAC in GT tail-lights. Did you test them there?

Actually until today I did not know that they were the same bulb. I am just now getting ready to build my first fastback. If you are willing to test them for me I will send you a free set to test. I can send the 10 watt but I would recommend keeping an eye on them. They get pretty hot.

I had originally run a set of the 10w in marker lights aswell as the dash. They melted the bulb holders for the dash so that is not an option. The rear markers are still great but the yellow have a white spot in the center where they melted the lens a little. Even though they melted the front a little I still have not removed them after almost 3 years. They still work so I know the bulb holders can handle the heat the lenses just didn't. I think the GT tailights have same bulb holders as the marker lights do. I just don't know how close they are to the lens though. I'm just not as worried about the ribbed marker lights as I would be about the taillights.

FYI - My 5W bulbs are rated at 33 lumens. Just about 45% more light then the 194 bulbs are. The kicker is that they are also rated at 10,000 hours compared to the 1500-2500 hours for the 194's.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-28-2007).]

Brightness is function of voltage and wattage and is inversely proportional to bulb life. To brighten a standard set of gauges, the suggestions above such as cleaning the old bulbs, just going to new stock bulbs (#194), or some LED options will help marginally.

In some applications you may want a substantially brighter bulb. For example, if you swap the standard gauge cluster with one of the several digital gauge replacement kits, they often come with a smoked Plexiglass cover. You don’t need half the bulbs in the dash (used for backlighting) since the digital gauges provide their own elimination. But the turn signal and “idiot lights” can tend to get lost behind the smoked cover. Here you want a bunch more brightness for the indicator lights to compensate.

In a case like this, replace the OEM style bulbs (#194 at 14 volts and 3.78 watts) with a lower voltage and higher wattage bulbs such as #2825 at 12 volts and 5 watts. You’ll get a ton more light. However, they’ll run hotter and won’t last as long so they would not be a good choice for backlighting.

“Doc”

purchased xenon/halogen bulbs from fieors everywhere about six months ago and they work great . can actually read the dash at night .really great upgrade.using them also on side lights. highly recommend. 85 2m6 auto.