Archie and his crew performed an engine swap on my car about 8 months ago. I went from a 2.8 turbo (Miller-Woods/Design 1) 4 speed to an LS2 6 speed. As I've posted a few times, I'm really happy with the swap in general and the new engine in particular. Yesterday, Francis T (of Trueleo Creations) and I took a little trip to HP Works in Colonial Beach, VA for some dyno testing. Here's the graph:

And here is a chart of the results:

His great dyno numbers (just look at how the TQ stays with HP, OMG) are complement with; by far the best 328 kit I've ever seen. The car looks way better than a real one and would blow the doors off one too! The guys at H.P. Works were so impressed they had to take pictures of it and, it takes a hell of lot to get their attention. Post some pictues of it Jon.

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Trueleo.com/fiero.htm
RSpiderII@aol.com

The results? I'm happy with the numbers, 330 HP at the wheels isn't bad at all. More importantly, I learned that it's running rich. I had a few hints that made me suspect that it was a little rich, but now I know. Easy fix, I just need to reach out to Street & Performance and have them adjust the mix a little bit.

I'm glad I had the run done - now I know how rich it's running at a range of RPMs; Mark will have a pretty easy time coming up with new code to run the engine with this data at his disposal.

My *GUESS* is that I'll gain HP and TQ with a better fuel mix.

quote Originally posted by Doc John: The results? I'm happy with the numbers, 330 HP at the wheels isn't bad at all. More importantly, I learned that it's running rich. I had a few hints that made me suspect that it was a little rich, but now I know. Easy fix, I just need to reach out to Street & Performance and have them adjust the mix a little bit. I'm glad I had the run done - now I know how rich it's running at a range of RPMs; Mark will have a pretty easy time coming up with new code to run the engine with this data at his disposal. My *GUESS* is that I'll gain HP and TQ with a better fuel mix.

Instead of sending off to get the tune worked on, have it tuned on a dyno. It is going to cost more but in the end it will be worth it with what you gain. There are tons of shops that dyno tune the LSX and get good results.

Are you running a stock LS2 ecm? Theres got to be a billion premade fuel maps from every LSx tuner out there. Great Dyno results, I'd be happy with 330whp but if you know its running rich you definately ought to fix it and try again for more power!

Very nice. I knew it would put down some killer numbers! I agree with dyno tuning it. It will cost slightly more, but you will get the best efficiency and power the first time you take it in. Theres no waiting for chips and hoping they are mapped correctly.

The rich mix will be fixed - that is a "gotta do" if I want to pass the tailpipe sniff test.

The torque "curve" really isn't much of a curve - a straight (well, 45 degree) line going up with RPM. No wonder the car pulls like a bandit when you hit the gas.

quote Originally posted by Doc John: The rich mix will be fixed - that is a "gotta do" if I want to pass the tailpipe sniff test. The torque "curve" really isn't much of a curve - a straight (well, 45 degree) line going up with RPM. No wonder the car pulls like a bandit when you hit the gas.

Hey Doc your tq curve looks like a mountain because the tq scale ( on the right of the graph ) is in differant graduations than the hp scale (left side of chart) . If the numbers were plotted on a graph, and the same scale was used for TQ & HP your tq curve would be flatter. Also it looks like your curves cross just after 5,250 rpm (were they should cross or be equall), because the tq and hp scales are differant. Not to bad for a stock crate engine. What gear were this pull made in ,3rd?

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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

Yep, 3rd gear.

i would have been hoping for higher numbers from the LS2

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: i would have been hoping for higher numbers from the LS2

Remember this is a stock crate engine with im gonna guess a standard tune. This engine would make lots more power with a cam ,and a F.A.S.T. 90 intake& 90mmTB and tunning.

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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

Nice run, the graph is very similar to my northstar, except a little higher (for now anyways )

Nice to see those numbers. Any comments from the dyno shop?

Nice numbers! If you assume the stock 400 HP at the flywheel, that's 17.5% loss through the drivetrain - well within expected results. Add the rich tune to the mix and it's a very good showing. I'll be interested to see what you can get out of it with tuning.

Nice!

Not being rude, but where do you get 17.5% drivetrain loss?

He's using a six speed

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: Not being rude, but where do you get 17.5% drivetrain loss? He's using a six speed

Huh??

330/400 = 0.825 x 100 = 82.5% at the wheels......... 1-0.825 = .175 = 17.5% loss from 400hp at the flywheel

I understand the math, but that is ridiculous to assume that the f40 produces an 18% drivetrain loss.

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: I understand the math, but that is ridiculous to assume that the f40 produces an 18% drivetrain loss.

Why is that? I've frequently heard 15% used as a rough estimate. 17.5% isn't that far from it.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-23-2007).]

He was saying that if you were to assume a 17.5% drive line loss then those numbers would look right on.

I don't know what the percentage is that people use as a drivetrain loss number.

I do know that the only way to get an exact drivetrain loss number would be to take that LS2 Crate engine out of Doc's car & put it on an engine Dyno & run it again. But then GM already did that with the development of the LS2 crate engine package when they rated that engine at 400hp.

I'd love to Dyno tune every customer car we put together. However, In almost every swap, we use new crate engines, new clutches & sometimes new transmissions. We usually test drive the cars locally for 100 miles. All new clutches require "normal" driving for 450-500 miles for the break in proceedure. Most new crate engines require some kind of break in. The best way to void any kind of warrantee is to take a new engine or clutch & put it thru a Dyno run before they are broken in.

Most of my customers don't want someone else putting the 1st 500 miles on their car & they certainly don't want to pay us $50.00/hr to drive their car around town either. I'm sure I could get volunteers from off the streets of my town who would be glad to put on the 1st 500 miles but I don't think my customers would like that.

If you're putting in a junkyard 3.8 or Caddie or any other used engine, you can take trhem to the Dyno right away because they're already broken in. But yet you don't see very many of those swaps going to the Dyno right after they're put together.

Archie

Actually, the best way to break-in an engine IS to put it on a dyno. The whole idea behind an engine break-in is to seat the rings correctly. B.M.E.P. (Break Mean Effective Pressure) is the force that pushes the piston ring outward against the fine honed cylinder wall, the higher the B.M.E.P., the harder the piston ring is pushed against the wall. This happens when the engine is under load. For a better look at this subject, look here.

BTW, I read the warranty information provided by GM at GMPerformaceParts.com, and no-where could I find any statements regarding dyno runs voiding the warranty before or even after break in? Of course, GM can find any reason to screw ya!

[This message has been edited by AutoTech (edited 11-23-2007).]

Good numbers for any V8 Fiero. But I too would have expected a little better from an LS2 specially in the torque numbers. What type of exhaust you are using? I also agree that the best investment would be a real dyno tune instead of mail order one.

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Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed Yellow: Nitrous 3.4 + 4 speed Auto
304rwHP/366rwTQ

ZZP did a calculation with a 4T65e-hd transmission and found a 23% drivetrain loss, a typical 3.4 pulley motor makes 220whp through an auto trans, and a forum member put down 250WHP when running it through a manual.

The manual swap and my car are identical, and at the track I would pull a slight bit on him out of the hole and he would slowly walk about 2 cars on me, so there is a much bigger power loss difference in the manual FWD transmissions

Every calculation I have done puts the power loss percentage a bit under 10%, typically around 8%. This includes more than just fiero transmissions. A typical GTO should dyno about 360-370whp according to ls1tech.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: What type of exhaust you are using?

I am willing to bet this is an issue with the HP numbers along with the tune. I was suprised when I saw a LT1 swap that had what looked to be factory size exhaust pipe for an exhaust. I would think with the type of money spent on a swap of this caliper that it would come dyno tuned for the customer.

Still good numbers for being in a Fiero, its not like you need all that HP anyways. But it nice to have when you want to use it. I am sure a good dyno tune will pick up 35-45 HP.

I've always used 15% as a blanket estimate, a 17.5% loss seems totally plausible assuming the engine actually made 400 flywheel hp, but considering the fuel issue I bet it was under 400 which means the actually loss is less than 17%. Only way to figure it would be to pull the motor put it on an engine dyno, tune it, then put it back in the car, and run it. Bottom line 330whp is haulin regardless and its faster than alot of our cars, who cares what the loss through the tranny is. Flywheel horsepower stops mattering once you put the motor in a car.

quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: Bottom line 330whp is haulin regardless and its faster than alot of our cars

The 6-spd tranaxle has a 1.32 gear ratio for 3rd gear and 4th gear is .95 ratio. A gear ratio of 1.0 is the ideal ratio for a chassis dyno.
The G6 (at the G6performance forum) folks who have played around with chassis dyno's and the 6-spd. Generally they run around 15% of loss when they dyno in 3rd gear (and a 5% driveline loss when running the dyno in 4th gear). So if in 3rd we consider 15% to be an average, 15% loss would be 340rwhp, He's getting 330 rwhp and running slightly on the rich side. Chances are with fine tuning, he should be able to gain 10rwhp.

But can't he tune to a fuel map that is somewhat superior to the stock map and gain more than 10? If he dynos in 4th gear by that 5% loss he could stand to make 380-390whp.

Congratulations on posting dyno numbers. Always a welcome addition.

I thought your graph looked a little skewed, but then I noticed the scale on the torque curve. It starts at 250, not 100.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I am willing to bet this is an issue with the HP numbers along with the tune. I was suprised when I saw a LT1 swap that had what looked to be factory size exhaust pipe for an exhaust. I would think with the type of money spent on a swap of this caliper that it would come dyno tuned for the customer.

Did you even read what I said about needing to break in the clutch before repeated runs on a dyno?

Did you read where I said most customers don't want to pay me by the hour to put enough miles on their new car to break in their clutch before I take for repeated runs on a Dyno?

Also what type of money was spent on this caliper?

What part of this don't you understand?

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-23-2007).]

Caliper <-> Caliber lol its an LS2 not an LT1 too.

Lets put it this way.

When you install new brakes, do you set up foot markers to make sure they stop at optimum distances?

When you flush a cooling system, do you send the car to Alaska to make sure it withstands -30* tempuratures?

Of course you dont. You make sure all is working properly and that they do their job without any complications. Same principal applys with an install. The car has zero driveability issues, the transmission functions properly, and the car is reliable. Archie has done his job.

Now it is the customers prerogative if he wants to tune for maximum power. He may even want to tune for best fuel efficiency, again, it is now up to the customer.

When you buy a new performace oriented vehicle, is it tuned for maximum HP, or can you tweek some more out of it?

quote Originally posted by Archie: Did you even read what I said about needing to break in the clutch before repeated runs on a dyno? Did you read where I said most customers don't want to pay me by the hour to put enough miles on their new car to break in their clutch before I take for repeated runs on a Dyno? Also what type of money was spent on this caliper? What part of this don't you understand? Archie

Yeah I read what you said in your other post but just sounds like a good excuse. You mention the motor needs breaking in also but you failed to mention that to my reply being someone called that out. I understand breaking in the clutch but a few dyno runs for tuning is not going to hurt it. There are new cars off the show room floor with manuel setups that hit the dyno with no issue. I cant tell you the exact cost of the swap but I did get a PM from another member from another LSX Thread that got a quote for the same setup--he said was 20K but this is just what I was told. The part that I dont understand is how you charge that much for a high HP swap and it leaves without being dyno tuned. Hell it leaves with an off the shelf tune that you have never even looked at.

Think of it this way--What if the car would had left with the same fuel issue but would have been lean?


Like I said--Even with the HP it is putting out, thats plenty for a Fiero.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Yeah I read what you said in your other post but just sounds like a good excuse. You mention the motor needs breaking in also but you failed to mention that to my reply being someone called that out. I understand breaking in the clutch but a few dyno runs for tuning is not going to hurt it. There are new cars off the show room floor with manuel setups that hit the dyno with no issue. I cant tell you the exact cost of the swap but I did get a PM from another member from another LSX Thread that got a quote for the same setup--he said was 20K but this is just what I was told. The part that I dont understand is how you charge that much for a high HP swap and it leaves without being dyno tuned. Hell it leaves with an off the shelf tune that you have never even looked at. Think of it this way--What if the car would had left with the same fuel issue but would have been lean? Like I said--Even with the HP it is putting out, thats plenty for a Fiero.

I wouldn't be surprised that if one of Archie's customers asked him to break in the drivetrain and dyno tune it for them, he would. It just adds more cost to the swap. Most people would probably prefer to break it in themselves and have it dyno tuned themselves. I know I would.

It's nice to not have to dyno tune a new car. But we all know most cars aren't tuned exactly right, even new ones from GM. Why else would there be such a big aftermarket tuner market and the ability to get more power out of a stock engine just by tuning.

Why don't you ask GM or Ford why they don't dyno tune all their cars? They cost more than an engine swap.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-23-2007).]

In response to the initial post on this thread - GREAT, DOC! I hope I get a ride in this one some day.

Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing the numbers. I am too jealous!!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Why don't you ask GM or Ford why they don't dyno tune all their cars? They cost more than an engine swap.

Can I also ask Toyota, Honda and Kia?

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Can I also ask Toyota, Honda and Kia?

If you wanted to. Just about any new car isn't tuned to perfection and can be improved by a dyno tune.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Can I also ask Toyota, Honda and Kia?

Sure, you can ask them. They will refer you to the Dealer in your area.

They will tell you that they can have anything done to your new car. As long as you pay for the new car, pay for everything you want done & take responsibility for anything that goes wrong due to your requests.

Until you put your money on the line, Toyota, Honda and Kia & their dealers have a special department you can talk to about your questions. Their number is 1-800-ALL-TALK

Archie