Alright calling all 3800 experts! I want to know the fastest yet most durable way to build a 600 hp 3800 SC engine for my Fiero. I'm gonna mate it with the 4t653hd transaxle. I've been following most of the 3800 SC threads here and there and the opinions are so scattered, but its always hilarious and entertaining to read the flame wars. I need some great input here so Dennis, Lloyde, Darth, FieroFlyer, Chris West, Archie, INTENSE, and dark horizon and anyone else that knows more on these engines please give me some ideas as to the best ways to accomplish my mission!

The 4T65E HD tranny is the strongest GM one out there but will not hold up to abuse of 600HP engine for long so start with a reputable tranny builder and have the tranny strengthened. Engine wise from what I have read the 3800SC series II is pretty reliable bottom end wise up to 500HP but not 600HP so I would have the bottom end done to be sure. Your best info will be found on club GP for what mods will get you the power you are looking for. Dan

You can get away with a stock bottom end up to that type of power level, but its a bit more difficult. 8.5:1 pistons, stock crank/rods, nice heads, turbo cam, large single turbo, and a totally built trans.

The trans needs a hardened input shaft, output shaft, 4th clutch shaft, torque converter, possibly a torsen diff. I wouldnt attempt it for less than 6-7k ready to dump into it.

I'm no expert but can pass on what I know.
First off I'm not sure that anyone has hit the 600HP threshold with the 3800SC engine but I'm sure that some have come close. The 4T65eHD is strong and can hold up to that power lever IF it is performance built for a racing application.
The foremost expert on 3800SC's is probably Zoomer from ZZ Performance. His 3800SC Grand Prix is the 1/4 mile record holder for a 3800SC. He has run a 9.1 second 1/4 mile with a 3800SC in the much heavier Grand Prix body. In theory swapping Zoomers engine into a Fiero should get the car into the 8 second bracket!! Most of the guys doing 3800SC swaps here are building for the 11 and 12's so you probably need to turn to the GTP group for advise on the formula to achieve this level of performance. ZZ carries a wide range of performance parts for the 3800 and also has a FAQ section in the website.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

600 HP is possible, but be prepared for a LOT of headaches. I'm going for 500 RWHP on my whippled fiero. My build is as follows;

Whipple (durr)
3" Intercooler
Intense stage 4 cam
Full port and polish
walboro 255 with a kenne bell pump boost
65# injectors
Forged 8.0:1 pistons
full balance
Tog Extremes
Full balance, etc

The only way to get the 3800 to those levels is boost. The problem with this though, is you start blowing head gaskets. From zoomer and the other guys I've talked to, at around 22psi, you stretch the head bolts/studs. This meaning, at 22psi, the head will literally lift off the block. 600hp on a 3800 is NOT reliable if you drive it hard. I plan to run around 20 lbs of boost.

quote Originally posted by Khaos88GT: Alright calling all 3800 experts! I want to know the fastest yet most durable way to build a 600 hp 3800 SC engine for my Fiero. I'm gonna mate it with the 4t653hd transaxle. I've been following most of the 3800 SC threads here and there and the opinions are so scattered, but its always hilarious and entertaining to read the flame wars. I need some great input here so Dennis, Lloyde, Darth, FieroFlyer, Chris West, Archie, INTENSE, and dark horizon and anyone else that knows more on these engines please give me some ideas as to the best ways to accomplish my mission!

Better start out simple here and just get a setup installed and running in a car then go for some HP. Then save up a bundle of money and lets hope the car is not going to be a daily driver or even a Sunday driver. Then be sure to have plenty of extra parts laying around and be prepared to work on the car weekely to replace the broken parts. But if you must have 600 HP:

Turbo Setup
Whipple Setup
MP112 Setup


Add all the correct matched MODs to one of these setups, throw in a few hours of dyno tuning and you should throw down some nice numbers and be about 10K lighter in the wallet, it not more. Then the weather changes, gets a little colder and you will need a new tune so its either back to the dyno for some tuning or buy a tuner and learn to tune the car yourself. Not forsure what you are looking to do with a 600HP Fiero but I am guessing its just going to be a track car and not used for driving on the street.

Running massive boost is very possible daily driven on a 3800, the head bolt stretching thing is just a rumor at best. Properly built motors will have no problems supporting 600HP for an extended period of time, the real concern is tuning, and transmission. Getting 600HP out of your block is the easy part nowadays.

I'd invest in some quality ARP fasteners for 600hp, especially head studs and rod bolts. And to be honest, if I were going to build 600hp, I'd do it right and get the bottom end to a point where I'd never worry about it- forged crank, forged rods, hardened wrist pins, and forged pistons. Good luck in your build, hi po setups are always fun!

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Christian Thomas
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd, 88 suspension, C6 polished wheels, C5 Z06 brakes, Konis, poly'd, Spec Stg 3
301rwhp/345rwtq
Stovebolt Powered!!!!!
06 Cobalt SS/SC w/ LSD (the slow DD)

For making power you will need the best cylinder heads you can put on it the more air flow the more fuel you can burn .
Just remember that boost presure just means that you are realy trying to push some thing through some thing that is resticted in its flow in other words if there where not any flow restirction you could never build boost presure but it would make a ton of power the bottom end you will need to beef up

One other thing to look into for running the amount of boost you will need is getting the block "O" ringed at the cylinder top lip and run head gaskets for this application. Old school high performance boosted engines did this to keep the head gaskets in place as they were known for moving under extremely heavy boost causing a blown head gasket and possibly more damage along with it.
600HP will make for one very powerfull yet extremely hard to control Fiero the most I have built personally was 389 at the wheels and it was very touchy to drive and keep in a straight line. Dan

O-ring is kinda outdated. yes its still used on huge setups but most people can get by with the higher technology cometic/MLS gaskets that are out nowaday.

Im no expert but I have been doing a lot of research on this motor and how much you can get out of it because I am very interested in a high horsepower 3800 motor in a fiero as well. This is all y opinion so don’t hate, but the supercharger has to go and a turbo application will be in its place witch I prefer, for 600 hp you would need turbonetics 60 series turbo if I’m correct I’m guessing you could go smaller or bigger for that matter. Bigger injectors new camshaft with a longer duration high performance heads forged pistons I would say forged crank shaft to but I have not been able to find one I have seen people just getting them polished though. For 600 horse you minus well do an ac delete new high performance bearings new high performance hydraulic rollers, push rods, valves, valve seals, high load valve seals new head gaskets and ARP studs basically anything in the head needs to go in place of more durable and better performing stuff you will want to port the lower intake to its kind of restrictive and could better. Or since I would turbo it get someone to make a sheet metal intake. There is more I could list and if doing all this you could run 600hp plus with little effort. The fastest 3800 quarter mile in a grand prix is 9.996 now saying this with that much horsepower in a fiero you could run way below that if you can get the power to the ground but you have to worry about cooling problems and also have to find a transmission to hold up to the abuse and getting it to the wheels so the power part is very possible but getting it to the ground a reliably would be a problem in fiero but not impossible when I get out of collage building this motor I just described is one of the first things on my to do list so I have a year or two to think about it but where there is a will there is a way right?

Tyler

quote Originally posted by hammer18: Im no expert but I have been doing a lot of research on this motor and how much you can get out of it because I am very interested in a high horsepower 3800 motor in a fiero as well. This is all y opinion so don’t hate, but the supercharger has to go and a turbo application will be in its place witch I prefer, for 600 hp you would need turbonetics 60 series turbo if I’m correct I’m guessing you could go smaller or bigger for that matter. Bigger injectors new camshaft with a longer duration high performance heads forged pistons I would say forged crank shaft to but I have not been able to find one I have seen people just getting them polished though. For 600 horse you minus well do an ac delete new high performance bearings new high performance hydraulic rollers, push rods, valves, valve seals, high load valve seals new head gaskets and ARP studs basically anything in the head needs to go in place of more durable and better performing stuff you will want to port the lower intake to its kind of restrictive and could better. Or since I would turbo it get someone to make a sheet metal intake. There is more I could list and if doing all this you could run 600hp plus with little effort. The fastest 3800 quarter mile in a grand prix is 9.996 now saying this with that much horsepower in a fiero you could run way below that if you can get the power to the ground but you have to worry about cooling problems and also have to find a transmission to hold up to the abuse and getting it to the wheels so the power part is very possible but getting it to the ground a reliably would be a problem in fiero but not impossible when I get out of collage building this motor I just described is one of the first things on my to do list so I have a year or two to think about it but where there is a will there is a way right? Tyler

1 period per 130 words... my brain hurts.... 361 words with 3 periods...

The fastest FWD grand prix ran a 9.01 last year. Should be easily beaten by .3 or .4 when the November racing season comes around this year.

yeah my brain hurt to if only i pu that much effort into other stuff and i figured that time would be slow since it was from 2005

537 WHP, so engine should be in the mid sixes.

http://www.clubgp.com/newfo...&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

and the video;

http://prjperformance.com/g...&g2_serialNumber=1&g

This is a very similar if not identical setup i'm putting into my '88

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Then the weather changes, gets a little colder and you will need a new tune so its either back to the dyno for some tuning or buy a tuner and learn to tune the car yourself. Not forsure what you are looking to do with a 600HP Fiero but I am guessing its just going to be a track car and not used for driving on the street.

One of the nice things about fuel injection is that IF it's setup right in the first place, you don't have to retune when the weather changes.

quote Originally posted by Will: One of the nice things about fuel injection is that IF it's setup right in the first place, you don't have to retune when the weather changes.

easier said than done... I dont think it is really possible to do it without serious effort, more than have ever seen any of my local dyno shops give. I would NOT attempt to daily drive a 600-700hp 3800 without a full time laptop in the passenger seat. I have my laptop in my STOCK fiero 24/7 just so I can keep the fueling in check (and practice for when I have my turbo setup..).

but yes, in theory the absolute advantage of FI, is the fact that all of the fueling related sensors are their to gauge the density of the air going into your motor, no matter what temperature it is outside.

BTW that PRJ whipple setup, is putting down like 670HP at the crank, so that should be right in the ballpark of what the owner of this thread wants to do.

Don't forget a great brake setup and suspension upgrade to get some traction and reduce giving money to the tire companies , since the above info has been great. Anyone use this series BF Goodrich yet: g-Force T/A Drag Radial? It comes in 215/60/14 for my x-11 and after the 3.3 swap, I would considering them for the front.

[This message has been edited by thebaron (edited 09-25-2007).]

too hook up that setup, your going to need SERIOUS rear end mods, and 270-300 series tires, in full slick form.

The biggest thing will be really stiff suspension, and if possible the 88 "3 link" setup, and no sway bar. I am sure wheelie bars would help cut the 1.2 60's that will be capable of.

quote Originally posted by Will: One of the nice things about fuel injection is that IF it's setup right in the first place, you don't have to retune when the weather changes.

That statement looks good when typed out but that doesnt fly in the real world. I mean with a mild setup, then yes, you can say it should be good year around. For anything pushing some serious HP, then it will need a re-tune when the weather changes or you will have problems. Like DH, I scan my car everytime I drive it to insure everything is looking right. You would be suprised to see how much changes from day to day when the weather changes.

How much tuning flexibility do you have?

I'm amazed that people put thousands of dollars into hard parts modifications and then tune with an SAFC that has no temperature compensation.

What's even wilder is that the IAT output of a MAFT is clamped at 80 degrees F.

well i have a 636 hp 3800SC that is sitting in my garage so im just going to shrow it into my 87 GT woth the stock were going to run 19 psi through it and were useing the stock trans.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: 1 period per 130 words... my brain hurts.... 361 words with 3 periods... The fastest FWD grand prix ran a 9.01 last year. Should be easily beaten by .3 or .4 when the November racing season comes around this year.

AND it was on 2 power adders.....................that set-up was Turbo & Supercharged...................................


Still dialing stuff in...............................but this should be the recipe.

87 GT 97 3800SC

Diamond Forged Racing pistons
Speed Pro Moly Rings
Series III rods
Balance shaft eliminated
PRJ double roller timing set
Custom grind cam ( cant remember spec's ) still installing it
Comp Cams custom 7016 pushrods
Meziere electric water pump
ARP Studded block
4 layer Cometic gaskets
Ported & polished heads
SI Stainless Oversized Valves & pocket porting
High Performance LS-1 springs
Titanium retainers
Ported & matched intake
Internals cryogenically treated, balanced & blueprinted
ZZP full size water to air intercooler
Custom 1.75 equal length headers, coated
60lb Motronic Injectors
PRJ Custom Fuel Rail & adjustable regulator
Autolite 103's
Taylor wires
MP 112 Blower w/ 2.8 pulley @ 23lbs boost
LS-1 Throttle body
4" CAI
3" madrel bent exhaust, Flowmaster muffler
LM-1 Wide Band O2 kit
MSD Boost-a-Pump
G.N. Fuel pump
SLP Mass Air Sensor
100 shot wet Nitrous kit
Custom PCM by Loyde ( and still tuning )
Accusump ( dry-sump back-up )
and those freakin motor mounts by Purple Reign

I know I'm missing something

Transmission -
" Red Line " built
Internals cryogenically treated including input shaft & 4th clutch hub
Quaife Torque Biasing Diff.
Thrasher Shift Kit

matt sprays nitrous in his twin turbo setup, so he has 2 power adders in that sense, he never ran dual charged.

quote Originally posted by Will: How much tuning flexibility do you have? I'm amazed that people put thousands of dollars into hard parts modifications and then tune with an SAFC that has no temperature compensation. What's even wilder is that the IAT output of a MAFT is clamped at 80 degrees F.

With an OBD2 setup, you can tune anything you want to if you have the right software(HP Tuner/DHP) and the knowledge. You can get away with an off the shelf PCM if you have a few MODs but once you start hitting the heavy MODs, you better have your own tuner or someone close by with one. Along with a tuner, it good to invest in a good WBO2 so you can get correct information to tune from. Its amazing to see the diffearance between the stock narrow band O2 and the real time O2s coming from a wideband.

If you tune a high output setup like that in the summer, then the winter cold air comes and you peg out your MAF and run lean. (Personal Lightning Experience) If you tune in the winter, summer comes and you get detonation from hotter air. It's Best to have a tune for both.

quote Originally posted by Rhino88gt: If you tune a high output setup like that in the summer, then the winter cold air comes and you peg out your MAF and run lean. (Personal Lightning Experience) If you tune in the winter, summer comes and you get detonation from hotter air. It's Best to have a tune for both.

That's what an IAT is for, no?

IAT is for temp compensation, but it doesn't help if you outflow your MAF tables when the temp drops and air density goes up. But if you outflow your MAF tables, you're not fully tuned, are you?

I think there's a lot that people miss by only looking at fueling tables. There was a discussion recently on the GM ECM list about the BPW temp compensation curve in the factory $58 code differing significantly from what the ideal gas law would predict.

yeah controlling the car at those levels has always been a concern. I guess I should aim lower for budget as well as practical issues I guess it comes from driving down the interstate and seeing guys with Fararris and Vipers look at me and laugh cuz I love my Fiero. I would kill to pull up beside one and see the look on its face when I leave their ass in the dust. LOL

VENGENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are looking at that much power then go with a turbo V8. You can get your 600 hp easy enough. It would be nice to compare the cost of a reliable 600hp from the two motors to see which is cheaper.

You can't run with supercars without some serious planning and investment.

I think the fact that the 3800 CAN retain a stock bottom end, might help the 3800 win out. But parts like gaskets, cams, heads, ect are a bit more, not much, but a bit more expensive than sbc stuff.

Yeah, I'm all for trickin out engines to power levels beyond what was ever imagined for them, but I think if you want to get 600HP with anything resembling a budget you would be best off putting a V8 in there, and if you want it for the cheapest make it a SBC.

That said, if you have the cash I say go for the 3800SC, you'll be in an elite club then.

quote Originally posted by hammer18: by the way does anyone know how much boost they were running on that 9 second pass? ...i wish i could spwell lol jk

30 lbs. Write up here. It is a twin turbo...



It’s always curious to see horsepower goals. It’s a benchmark with bragging rights, to be sure, but jumping from 140 HP to 600 HP should be done with caution to say the least. Why are you looking for 600 HP? Are you going to drive it on the street? It seems the consensus is that above 400 HP at the crank a Fiero becomes a very wild ride. Even experienced drivers find 400 HP demands their complete attention. That much power should be confined to the track.

Anyway, the L67 can and has gotten to that much crank horsepower – recently with Whipple and over the past couple of years with turbos, I can’t find M90/112/120 example anywhere near that level. The 537 WHP Whipple is really the first example we’ve had of a supercharger challenging a turbo build. There aren’t many Whipple 3800s out there. For years and years we heard of the potential, saw modular V8 Fords make crazy horsepower with the swap, but until now we haven’t had an example of what a twin screw could really do on a L67. In that time the turbo market exploded and that is the standard for high HP 3800s. For every twin screw there are several more turbos putting down 400+ daily driven horsepower. As some have stated, the stock bottom end of a 3800 is bulletproof for street driven power and an overwhelming majority never touch it.

I think that the 3800SC is a great choice for a swap, and one of it’s advantages is starting at a reasonable power level that will still outrun most sporty cars. From there you can get comfortable with the power and add more keeping time with your comfort level. You’d start at 250 HP easy, and with bolt-ons can get up to 300 HP. Bigger steps net bigger power – turbo, cam, intercooler, and for a daily driver almost everyone will run out of nerve before they run out of options to increase power. At that point one of the greatest benefits of a turbo is being able have a street tune and a track tune. Some vary 100 HP or more. Sure, you can take the belt off a supercharger and drive the car, but a turbo is well equipped to be reasonable on the street and a monster at the track with a flip of a switch.

My 300 HP Grand Prix (with 1000 lbs on a Fiero and traction control) can be a handful in the rain if I get careless. 400, 500, or 600 HP in the rain? You had better know what you are doing.

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Apparently kitty litter is flamable.

Honestly, the V8 still needs a built auto trans, which will be just as much as the 3800's. The 360 turbo setup would be A TON harder, due to the fact there is no exhaust readily made, fuel injection is huge money, and so is controlling it (ok ok blow through carbs exist I know). A built 3800 bottom end is the same exact price as a 350 bottom end, the difference in head prices are negligible, cams are a few bucks more, but still negligible in the long run.

I would really think that a 3800 turbo would be TONS easier, and you get "free" fuel injection, and tuning your fuel injection is cheap $300-500 for tuning equipment.

Other than displacement, I cant think of one advantage the 350 would have over a 3800 in a turbo setup. Feel free to correct me, most of you know I am have 3800 on the brain a bit too much.

quote Originally posted by Khaos88GT: Alright calling all 3800 experts! I want to know the fastest yet most durable way to build a 600 hp 3800 SC engine for my Fiero. I'm gonna mate it with the 4t653hd transaxle. I've been following most of the 3800 SC threads here and there and the opinions are so scattered, but its always hilarious and entertaining to read the flame wars. I need some great input here so Dennis, Lloyde, Darth, FieroFlyer, Chris West, Archie, INTENSE, and dark horizon and anyone else that knows more on these engines please give me some ideas as to the best ways to accomplish my mission!

If you really want to get into the 600hp range, Your best bet is to contact FieroX (or at least search thru his posts in the archive's).
Although he started out with a 3800SC, He later went with a 3800 turbo as he found it had more potential.
Back in 2004 he was already hitting 460 rwhp ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050119-1-042781.html )
and if I recall he broke into the 500 rwhp range last year. His last run was mid 11's and he probably would have been into the 10's but his transaxle ate itself. (His car has eaten a lot of automatic transaxles)

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 09-26-2007).]

Making the power isn't the question. Keeping it tuned isn't the question.

The question is the rest of the setup. Putting 600 HP to the ground requires a transmission that can handle it and a suspension & wheel/tire combo that can channel it. That's where the challenge will lie. Making power is (relatively) easy.

Well from what I've read I'd be better off just shooting for around 450whp. The car wasnt going to be daily driven but also wasnt going to be a strictly track car so factoring in tuning, trying to keep it on the road, and not having a lifetime supply of GM axles I would say I better just swallow my pride and build a more reasonable powered Fiero. I guess now the question is to all the 400-450whp 3800 SC guys is: What can you and have you beat on the road with a setup on that level?

450whp ~=~ high 500 crank HP. I think we all assumed that you ment 600 crank horsepower. Either way, getting the 600 whp just means running all out to the extremes on a 3800, 400-450whp is still a range that a stock bottom end can handle.

simple t3/t04 turbo, cam, = 450whp, on a stock bottom end no problem, I have raced one many times with that setup in an impala.

If you run a turbo you can make it so you can adjust the boost right from your driver seat so just set it up to run like 10 pounds on the street then the 20 pounds at the track with race gas you will just need to know how to set up the wast gate to be adjustable and you will have to be able to tune for each boost and weather condition