Something new happened to me yesterday as I was driving my car. Every thing was fine in regard to the clutch until I was about an hour into my drive when at a stop light, I could not get it into 1st gear. It would not go into the gate at all, so I started it in 2nd to get out of the intersection. At the next light it did it again but this time it would not go into 2nd either. (It would go in the 2nd gear gate but it would push it out again. At that point I pulled the car off the road and let it sit. I got back in the car after an hour, started it and she gave me no trouble. I drove her home and few miles from my house.... she did it again. It would not go into first. Again, I let her cool down and then I was able to drive home OK.

I believe the clutch is not the issue, because there is no slipping when I am changing gears. Friction point is right in the middle. I checked the fluid and it was a "little" low but still OK, however it looked very dark to me. Could dirty or old fluid be the problem? Also I heard that there is a shield(?) that protects the slave cylinder from heat? I can not tell if my car has one. Would they be standard on 88 Formulas?

If anybody has any ideas I would appreciate it.

Thanks, -Alan. (AKA: Barkaroo)

Im thinking you have a bad slave cylinder (nothing serious).Either the slave cylinder is bad or you have a hydrolic leak to the slave cylinder,so when you press in the clutch you dont have enough pressure to engage gears.You can try bleeding the slave cylinder,but if you have a leak it wont last long (the bleader valve should be on the slave cylendar).

Have someone push your clutch while you watch the slave cylinder. It should move at least 1 inch. If it doesn't, it's bad or there's another problem somewhere.

Take the rubber boot off the end of the slave and check to see if it is wet inside.
If it is the slave cylinder is leaking.
It may also be there is some moisture in the fluid and is heating up in the slave or line. Give it a good bleed for clean fluid.
Just went through it with mine, changed both the slave and master. Good as gold now.

I checked in the rubber boot and it is dry. Since it works fine until after the first 45 minutes of driving the car, I am thinking it must be bad fluid, (water in the line turning to vapor?), and I should just bleed out the old fluid and replacement it before replacing the slave. Does everyone agree or has anybody had a slave cylinder (itself) affected by heat?

Thanks -Alan.

[This message has been edited by Barkaroo (edited 09-21-2007).]

I think a full master/slave inspection, and a fresh rebleed would be a good place to start.

Have you checked the boot on the back of the slave, too? Could be leaking there. I had a similar problem on one of my Fieros, and it had gotten air into the system. All methods of bleeding failed to solve the problem, until I did a gravity bleed. If you'd like, I can help you out any day next week, except for Tuesday.

Can you shift OK with the engine off? I recently had a clutch disk shed a few springs, which put a constant drag on the disk even when the clutch pedal was on the floor. If you can shift OK with the engine off and your clutch slave cylinder has enough travel, then I'm afraid you need a clutch.

Yeah... I checked inside the boot on the back of the slave and it was dry. How can air get in the system without fluid getting out? What would air in the system do regarding operation? Would it change the friction point or some other noticable sign?

Driving the car, the clutch operation is smooth and perfect for the first 45 minutes. What would make it go south after that?

The car shifts just fine with the engine off and cold as well. 1st to 2nd, 1st to 2nd, like a new car.

The one thing that I really noticed was that the fluid is very very dark. It looks almost like oil so who knows whats in it. The guy that had the car before me never took care of it I am finding out.... THE HARD WAY! LOL!

Oh well. C'est la vie. - (That's Life)

Charlie, I was going to take the car to Ashby this weekend but he is having a medical procedure done and would not be able to work on it until next weekend at best. I figured I'd have him replace the slave and bleed the system. If you think bleeding the system might do the trick I'll be around tomorrow, Sunday, if you would like to take a look. Just send an e-mail or call.

Thanks again for everyones advice. You guys are great!

-Alan.

[This message has been edited by Barkaroo (edited 09-22-2007).]

Alan,

Check the master cylinder the same way you checked the slave. Do this from inside the car, just follow the banjo rod from the pedal to the boot. Check for moisture there too.
Dark fluid is caused by moisture contamination. There may also be rubber particals in there too. These particals are from either the slave or master or both.
Flush the system with clean fluid first.

Barkaroo, be really careful with the clutch line if you need to change the slave cylinder. The connection between the slave and the hydraulic line was completely frozen on my car. I ended up butchering it, and had to replace the line. Replacing that line on the Fiero makes for a long afternoon.....

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind! -Alan.

I can help you out this afternoon if you're available, or tomorrow. After Church, I have a meeting with a political candidate, but after that, I should be free. Let me know. call me at
678
467
1742


Charlie

Well I switched out the clutch fluid and took her for a long drive. The clutch pedal was a bit stiffer which I expected and the car did great. I drove around for an hour and logged 45 miles, making frequent stops and starts checking the operation of 1st and 2nd gear.

Then as I was parking the car at the local grocery store.... She did it again. She would not go into the 1st gear gate and would push herself out of 2nd gear. I fiddled with it for about 30 seconds and she finally did go in 1st and I was able to finish parking her. I let her cool down for 15 minutes got in and drove her home with no problems. The whole thing is very strange to me. I can't believe it's the clutch when there are no other symptoms. It seems to me that the temp appears to be the only major factor.

My friend Ashby told me the slave cylinder on the 88 should have a heat shield? Does anybody have one on their car and what does it look like? I did not see anything that looked like a "shield" on mine.

Thanks, -Alan.

The heat shield is a piece of stamped, formed sheet metal that covers the slave. Should be a silvery metal color, but more often is discolored and rusted. It should be mounted into the slave attachment bolts with slotted ears, and it will extend back almost to the bleeder screw. I was thinking that it's possible that you're getting too much heat and boiling the fluid. That will put air into the system.

You had previously asked how you can get air into the system, without a leak? That's one way. The other is that air will pass through a hole where fluid won't. And, if you had the black gunk in the fluid, it could help to block a fluid leak.

quote Originally posted by Barkaroo: Something new happened to me yesterday as I was driving my car. Every thing was fine in regard to the clutch until I was about an hour into my drive when at a stop light, I could not get it into 1st gear. It would not go into the gate at all, so I started it in 2nd to get out of the intersection. At the next light it did it again but this time it would not go into 2nd either. (It would go in the 2nd gear gate but it would push it out again. At that point I pulled the car off the road and let it sit. I got back in the car after an hour, started it and she gave me no trouble. I drove her home and few miles from my house.... she did it again. It would not go into first. Again, I let her cool down and then I was able to drive home OK. I believe the clutch is not the issue, because there is no slipping when I am changing gears. Friction point is right in the middle. I checked the fluid and it was a "little" low but still OK, however it looked very dark to me. Could dirty or old fluid be the problem? Also I heard that there is a shield(?) that protects the slave cylinder from heat? I can not tell if my car has one. Would they be standard on 88 Formulas? If anybody has any ideas I would appreciate it. Thanks, -Alan. (AKA: Barkaroo)

i think you should sell the car to me as is...problem solved

[This message has been edited by aaronrus (edited 09-23-2007).]

Thanks Charles! Yes... That might be it.

The slave cylinder on my car does not have anything like that attached to it. Is the shield attached along the top or the bottom, (between the cylinder and the transmission housing), running horizontal length wise?

When I was flushing out the old fluid, (I ran 24 oz through the entire system which cleared it up pretty good), I only noted that the slave cylinder itself was black and felt like it had a coating of black plastic around it. Nothing that looked like a "shield" was present. Can I make a shield or would the Fiero store have those available? Are there any other options I could consider to help protect the cylinder from the heat?

I would sure love to see a photo of one.

-Alan.

I'll send you a pic of one in just a few minutes.

Here is what the one on an 85GT looks like.
Mounts with two tabs on the slave bolts and one on a bell housing bolt.

Thanks so much for the photo!

No such animal on mine.

Is that an exhaust manifold just forward of the heat shield? Not sure if there is an exhaust pipe that close to mine…. I’ll have to look when I get home and I'll let you know.

Thanks again for all your info and support.

-Alan.

There is a manifold that close to yours. The pictures I emailed to you are of an 87, just like yours. I think there may be a little difference in some of the heat shields from different years, though I believe all will fit. Check back with Ashby or Don to see if they have a shield. I emailed you a temporary solution, along with the pictures.

Update on the problem....

OK... I replaced the clutch fluid and drove the car around for an hour and the problem did not go away. Once again the car would not go into first when I was maneuvering around in a parking lot.

Next, I replaced the slave cylinder, performed a gravity bleed of the system and added a heat shield. (By the way, once I got the slave cylinder off, I did find a small amount of rusty fluid under its boot.) Hoping I had now found the trouble and with the new cylinder on, I drove the car around for an hour stopping and starting many times. The shifting was better and performed well for a longer time... but as I was parking the car... she gave me trouble again going into first. I tried lifting the clutch peddle a little but still no go. It took 8 to 10 tries before she did go in first, but it did not seem to go completely in the gate. I check the Master Cylinder again and it is dry under the boot and working fine.

What is the normal temperature range of a 2.8 V6 anyway? When driving, the temp started out around 170. In stop and go traffic it will climb to 220 which is when I started to notice some resistance putting her into first. The problem, whatever it is, really seems to be heat sensitive.

I wanted to check the transaxle fluid level but I could not pull out the speedometer fitting. Is there a trick to removing it?

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks again... -Alan.

Change the master next.
Normal operating temp is where you are running at (up to 220 on the gauge).
Stock temp for the cooling fan to kick on is 230* = - 5*, off around 118*.
One other note, I don't believe the 88 uses a shield around the slave due to the redesign of the exhaust shielding on the V-6. Not that having one on will hurt anything.

I didn't see where anyone mentioned shift linkage adjustment. In your initial post you mentioned you couldn't get the transmission in 1st at the intersection but you were successful getting it to shift into second, although it popped out of gear. That sounds like a cable adjustment problem because insufficient hydraulic system function will lock you out of every gear at idle. I didn't note any mention of gear grinding either, also a characteristic of failing hydraulics. On the other hand a worn or misadjusted shift cable will cause the transmission to jump out of gear and not shift into some. You should check your adjustments and cables at both ends to make sure the casing at the end is not split allowing the cable to bend especially in the case of first gear where it is actually being pushed into the sheath where it is more likely to buckle as opposed to pulled into second gear where unless it snaps in two you will not likely have a problem.

Earlier this year my select cable disconnected from the shift link because the snap on cup had worn out, I was on a hill at a light with no emergency brake and the transmission was in neutral, funny story, I'll have to tell you about it some time.

Also make sure the cables are not to close to the exhaust, I had shift problems associated with heat as well when that happened. I found my shift cable casing had been burned pretty good.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 10-11-2007).]

Thanks Indy.

I'll take your advice and order a new Master today and try that. Have you ever seen a problem like this? It is just so strange that it works fine for the first 45 minutes of driving and then it goes south on me. Once it cools down for 15 minutes... it seems to work fine again for a while.

Should I bother with checking the transaxle fluid level? I could not pull the speedometer fitting out last night to check it. Is there a trick to removing it? What are the odds that the transaxle fluid is part of the problem anyway? How often should the transaxle fluid be replaced if ever? I could not find it noted in my Haynes book. The car has a total of 76,000 original miles. No leaks. Major tune-up was done in March and the car runs smooth as silk otherwise.

Thanks Joseph.

I'll look into the linkage tonight. By the way... no gear grinding issues.... Except when it was pushing the car out of 2nd gear that first time. I have not tried to force it in 2nd again after that.

Thanks, -Alan.

[This message has been edited by Barkaroo (edited 10-11-2007).]

here's a nice way to find out of the master is just crapping out on you... it's how i have to drive my car till i can afford a new one... when the problem happens try to hit the pedal quick and to the floor... if the problem goes away you now know your master's seal is going bad. easy and free test

Joseph,

One other thing, I did have the mechanic that performed the tune-up, (who by the way did a FANTASTIC job), also installed a short shifter for me. Would that have anything to do with this?

Cool suggestion on the Master test. I'll give that a try.

Thanks,

-Alan.

[This message has been edited by Barkaroo (edited 10-11-2007).]

Alan, I had a similar problem on my 88 Notchie with a 3800 SC and Izuzu 5 speed. The only cure was to replace the master and slave cylinders and bleed the hell out of it. Things now work much better after the new parts.

quote Originally posted by Barkaroo: Thanks Indy. I'll take your advice and order a new Master today and try that. Have you ever seen a problem like this? It is just so strange that it works fine for the first 45 minutes of driving and then it goes south on me. Once it cools down for 15 minutes... it seems to work fine again for a while.

I've been able to bleed some that worked for 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 days, 5 weeks. . . . . you get the idea.
I have several manual trans cars, coupes, V-6's and various years.
Like I said in my first post, mine was doing the exact same thing, changed them both cleaned dirty line and shifts like new.

quote Originally posted by Barkaroo: Should I bother with checking the transaxle fluid level? I could not pull the speedometer fitting out last night to check it. Is there a trick to removing it? What are the odds that the transaxle fluid is part of the problem anyway? How often should the transaxle fluid be replaced if ever? I could not find it noted in my Haynes book. The car has a total of 76,000 original miles. No leaks. Major tune-up was done in March and the car runs smooth as silk otherwise.

The 88 getrag has a dip stick on the opposite side on the speed sensor. Some unscrew and some have a theromos type stopper type. Other than that a small amount of prying maybe required, use the lockdown groove to do so.

quote Originally posted by Barkaroo: Thanks Joseph. I'll look into the linkage tonight. By the way... no gear grinding issues.... Except when it was pushing the car out of 2nd gear that first time. I have not tried to force it in 2nd again after that. Thanks, -Alan.

I don't think you have a linkage problem, more cause than effect that you were not fully in 2nd gear is why it jumped out of gear.

did you get a chance to try my "quick master test"?

The brown color of the clutch fluid is the first clue. It's due to rust in the fluid; the fluid has absorbed moisture from the air, enough to rust the inside of the lines.

That moisture is also the root cause of your problem - when the slave cylinder gets hot enough to boil water, the moisture turns to steam and blows the fluid out of the slave. Result: no clutch. When it cools down the steam condenses and everything is "OK" again.

The cure will take a couple of hours - but it'll put things right. Start by disconnecting the clutch line at both ends, remove the bleeder from the clutch slave and the cap from the clutch master. Next, flush everything out with denatured alcohol (methanol) - you can get it at your local hardware store for about $15 a gallon. Keep flushing the cylinders and lines until it comes out clean, once isn't enough. The methanol will absorb any moisture left in the system as it cleans out the rust deposits. I like to put the can of alcohol in the trunk and run a hose from the clutch line into the can. Then I use a vacuum bleeder in the back to pull alcohol through the line.

When everything is clean and sweet, blow the line and cylinders out with dry air. Hook the lines back up and refill with clean fluid from a new container. That bottle of brake fluid that's been on your shelf for a while isn't any good anymore; throw it out and buy a new bottle. I use DOT-5 Silicone fluid in my clutch; works great, you could do the same and avoid future problems with moisture.

Bleed it well and you'll have a clutch that works reliably again. And after seeing what this did for your clutch, take a look at your brake fluid...

Finally m86gt,

I did not get a chance to yet. I work a good ways from home and by the time I pull in the driveway it is dark and I am tired. Besides it takes an hours worth of driving to recreate the conditions before I can conduct your test. I plan to give it a try this weekend and will let you know. Thanks.

Whuffo,

That really sounds about right to me. Excellent suggestions that I will try. I think I'll go ahead and order the master cylinder so that everything is new and then perform your "cleaning" procedure.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

-Alan.

Thanks, -Alan.

Update 12/13/2007

Sorry for the delay but better late than never right?

I put on the new master, blew out the line, and put it all back together, drove the car.... and still had the problem.

I called my mechanic (Ashby) and he suggested an optional solution. He suggested replacing the stock slave push rod with a longer one to give it more reach. I cut an 1/8" longer rod from an old valve and switched out the stock rod. It raised the friction point on the pedal a little but other than that it seems to have taken care of the problem. The cooler weather may also have played a factor so I am going to have to keep an eye on it for now.

Thanks again for all the advice. I really appreciate everyone's help.

-Alan.

[This message has been edited by Barkaroo (edited 12-13-2007).]