quote Originally posted by Archie: Peace: I think Tina was just trying to help. She's had the same clutch in her car for about 2 years & it's holding up even with Tina & Greg taking it to the track, so they're trying to look for simple answers. In fact her Fiero is the 1st Fiero to get that version of the SPEC in a Fiero. Archie

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come hard. That's the problem when you write in this media and people read only words without seing body language (smile in face). Anyway, clutch will arrive today. Also I thought Tina had a 5 speed and not a 6 speed.

I am running the spec in my 4 speed 3800sc for almost tw0 years now.could it be a flywheel height issue?

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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"

Well, finally got an answer from Spec today. I called Monday (unit arrived last Friday) but they told me to call back today when whomever looks at it arrived from a trip. Got no word/comment on failure cause as operator handled the info request. They will ship me tomorrow the Stage 4 replacement I asked. Good enough for me. Will confirm when it arrives probably next Monday.

Received the Spec warranty replacement today. Almost a 100% customer satisfaction job. But... what I feared to happen did happen. They sent the disc with the Getrag hub splines instead of the G6 splines It was all over the papers the G6 part number. Oh well. Tomorrow I'll call again and see if they ship the correct one in time for me to replace it this weekend. One nice surprise is that they did resurface the flywheel. That was nice. Here are some pics of it.

Great packaging;


Wrong disk


Resurfaced FW

Are you sure that it's too tall? The looks can be decieving, you have to keep in mind that there is no longer any sprung hub parts so the spline will look like it sticks out more in one direction. If it actually doesn't fit the intended way then just flip the disc over and i garuntee it will fit cause it looks like the spline is just about flush on one side.

I believe that kind of mistake is possibly behind the clutch failures, there is probably a break down in communication somewhere resulting in the wrong but operable parts being used in some of the high performance discs. It's apparent someone stopped reading soon after they read Fiero and you wound up getting the wrong part, like several others who have posted about being sent the wrong clutch disc after stressing what was supposed to be sent. Hopefully your neck want be the next weakest link with that thing. I find it hard to believe it's capable of any compliment with the word gentle or smooth attached.

quote Originally posted by Zac88GT: Are you sure that it's too tall? The looks can be decieving, you have to keep in mind that there is no longer any sprung hub parts so the spline will look like it sticks out more in one direction. If it actually doesn't fit the intended way then just flip the disc over and i garuntee it will fit cause it looks like the spline is just about flush on one side.

100% sure. It doesn't matter because the reference is the FW face. FW side must be (almost) flat or it will touch it. Both sides seem to be same material so flipping may work and in my case I have over 1" clearance towards the FW side (due to adapter) but still the splines are the wrong ones (not for the G6). Also I wanted the 6 puck (stage 3) and this seem to be the stage 3+ in solid version.

Send it to me and I will see if it fits

How does the FW mount to the motor, where is the ring gear? This is all new to me (G 6)
Thanks
Gary

quote Originally posted by GKDINC: How does the FW mount to the motor, where is the ring gear? This is all new to me (G 6) Thanks Gary

That plate mounts to the stock V8 flywheel.

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: This all looks to be caused by the rivets getting loose. Those don't look to be seated and crushed correctly. Once loose, they would jack hammer the parts, including the springs. Normally, the springs should never touch the clutch plate stack like that.

I think Matt had nailed it on the head. Think about this, What happens if the torque force on the disk was too high for the rivets? The rivets would start to fold over from the torque causing the disk and the spring retaining plate to no longer be lined up properly. When this happens, the springs also start to lean over (parallelagram style) and will distort, one side towards the flywheel, the other towards the pressure plate (potentially extending into the pressure plate) and eventually break free. Also the spring retaining plate gets forced outwards because the rivets are standing crooked. When one of the rivits finally fails, the retaining plate will start to work its way off center, chewing up the innards of the pressure plate if there are any close tolerances. Simply put, its totally looks like rivet failure.

Looking at the pictures a second time. The rivets on ALL the disks shown have worked themselves loose. I now know who I will refrain from buying clutches with sprung hubs from... The pictures are extreemly informative.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: I think Matt had nailed it on the head. Think about this, What happens if the torque force on the disk was too high for the rivets? The rivets would start to fold over from the torque causing the disk and the spring retaining plate to no longer be lined up properly. When this happens, the springs also start to lean over (parallelagram style) and will distort, one side towards the flywheel, the other towards the pressure plate (potentially extending into the pressure plate) and eventually break free. Also the spring retaining plate gets forced outwards because the rivets are standing crooked. When one of the rivits finally fails, the retaining plate will start to work its way off center, chewing up the innards of the pressure plate if there are any close tolerances. Simply put, its totally looks like rivet failure. Looking at the pictures a second time. The rivets on ALL the disks shown have worked themselves loose. I now know who I will refrain from buying clutches with sprung hubs from... The pictures are extreemly informative.

The pressure plate on my stage 3+ showed the same grinding on the inside (not the marks on the fingers but the other part) and i assure you it was not because of rivet failure. When i ground the rivets away to dismantle the disc everything was still super tight and the rivets appeared to be in perfect condition. There was not obvious sign on the disc of what had been contacting the pressure plate but there was definatly material missing from the plate. I think this part is caused by specs poor calculations and design work.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Disc clutch side;

One question about this pic, Is the silver edge of the spring retaining plate to the right only just light reflection or grindage? hard to tell.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: One question about this pic, Is the silver edge of the spring retaining plate to the right only just light reflection or grindage? hard to tell.

No it is not light. It seems like grindage but only on that side.

Talked to Spec again and they will send the correct disc. Also it will be a 6 puck instead of a full face disc. Apparently they use the same PP.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Talked to Spec again and they will send the correct disc. Also it will be a 6 puck instead of a full face disc. Apparently they use the same PP.

The 6 puck version will have more drivability issues than the full face version. The standard stage 3 is the 6 puck version and the 3+ has the full face and improved drivabilty - night and day difference. I have had both the stage 3 and the stage 3+ on the same SBC car and will only use the full face versions going forward.

I've been watching this closely to see if I will replace my trusty Archie Centerforce on my ZZ4 when it becomes a 355 or 383 this winter. Has SPEC provided any oral or written comment about the root cause of failure? It seems only logical they should be able to explain this....aren't they the design home and manufacturer with full access to all other reported failures and returns of their product?

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88GT ZZ4 Sequential EFI www.bigstuff3.com - 275 RWHP Dyno'd,

[This message has been edited by V8Steve (edited 10-02-2007).]

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: The 6 puck version will have more drivability issues than the full face version. The standard stage 3 is the 6 puck version and the 3+ has the full face and improved drivabilty - night and day difference. I have had both the stage 3 and the stage 3+ on the same SBC car and will only use the full face versions going forward.

I didn't like this full face at all. Slipped too much. With all the low torque I have I need it to grab quickly or it will slip. I prefer a little chatter but reliable grab. I had a Stage 3 for 400 miles so I know how it is. I hear from many that it gets a little better later on.

Finally all correct. New disk arrived today I'm really glad SPEC stand behind their warranty. Will see now how this one behaves/last.

Well you wont be wearing any springs out. Looking forward to hearing how you like it.

Talked to SPEC again today and asked again about the failure cause. They said that springs pop out if the input shaft is moving or bent or with agressive driving. So why it was replaced by warranty? Not going to fight that one much. The input shaft is not bent nor moving. The only thing I can think of is if the adapter plate is not true so the transmission is not flat against the block to cause it on two different transmission setups. Possible but not too likely. I just resurfaced the back flywheel to eliminate variables. Time will tell.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Talked to SPEC again today and asked again about the failure cause. They said that springs pop out if the input shaft is moving or bent or with agressive driving. So why it was replaced by warranty? Not going to fight that one much. The input shaft is not bent nor moving. The only thing I can think of is if the adapter plate is not true so the transmission is not flat against the block to cause it on two different transmission setups. Possible but not too likely. I just resurfaced the back flywheel to eliminate variables. Time will tell.

Something else to think about. Is the tranny input shaft and crank shaft on the same center line. Probably so, just something else to measure.
Good luck keep us posted.
Gary

Have any of you thought about local shops or anything like that? The place that does my clutches builds theres so when it starts slipping you can replace the ceramic padding instead of the entire disk. They make awesome stuff, and I am sure there is other local shops that do that same. Mine would be considered a SPEC 3 as well and I bet I paid 1/2 what you guys do and I havent had any problems with it yet (knock on wood)

Installed this over the weekend. I wish I had a picture of the previous one but there is a big difference in the clearance from the PP fingers to the disc with this one. The beauty of the 6 speed is that you just plug in the slave line back and all is working perfect. Throw feels fine and nothing drags when rotating it with the clutch fully disengaged (pedal to floor).

I liked that about it to, you only have to remove the clips to disconnect the line after which you can reconnect with the clip in place by just pushing the hose fitting into place. The nice little check valves keep the fluid in place.

Update. Finally took it out today for a quick spin. Pleasant surprise is this clutch feels as smooth as the previous. Yeah only drove it couple miles (first debug test) but there was no chatter as I expected. Engages very smoothly. It grabs quickly and feels like it is broken in already. No feeling of any slip. Driving those 500 break in miles probably will take me until December. I'll have to go and buy milk everyday. I'm happy

** Edited just to add that drove it 10 miles and the feeling is still the same. I love this thing!

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 10-09-2007).]

Hows the clutch holding up? I just had a problem with my spec 3 (1500miles and spring problem) but like spec said, vibration from the input shaft runout being out of tolerance was the culprit. I'm going to the stage 4 solid hub and disc with a different transmission. I should be up and going in a couple days unless my new (used) transmission is crap also.
-Kyle

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-Kyle
Email: kakagiraffe@gmail.com
Aim: Littlechugger
1988 Notchback 4.9 V8, 5spd Isuzu
True Dual Exhaust, Delta Cam
1993 Ford Probe 5spd

quote Originally posted by arte444: Hows the clutch holding up? I just had a problem with my spec 3 (1500miles and spring problem) but like spec said, vibration from the input shaft runout being out of tolerance was the culprit. I'm going to the stage 4 solid hub and disc with a different transmission. I should be up and going in a couple days unless my new (used) transmission is crap also. -Kyle

Near 200 miles now and still as good as mentioned above. Today I nailed a little bit hard (on torque peak) when cold and it slipped a little bit but it was very cool here. About 5 min of driving later with engine warmed up it was feeling ok. Still I won't nail it really hard until the 500 miles. But it is looking good. You shouldn't have any problem with the 4.9.

Alex, I appreciate your consistent coverage of the issue and resolution as well as your updates on the feel and performance of the new uinit. This is the first time I have seen this thread since joining the forums earlier this month...I don't have the chance to get on here as much as I would like. In reading the earlier posts I wanted to address a few things.

To begin, the grooves on the underside of the diaphragm fingers were caused by the spring that came out of the disc (as it moved freely it contacted and wore the fingers). Secondly, the slippage that you initially noticed with the 3+ (full faced disc that had the spring issue) looked like it was related to contamination. This is evidenced by the splatter pattern on the outside of the flywheel contact surface. I would make sure that you have no leaks (rear-main-seal or hydraulic) and that there is not too much grease on the unput shaft as either of these could cause contamination. With a CSM (carbon-semi-metallic) disc the contaminanent will burn off a bit with heat and thus allow the car to have times of slip and bite. This is just something to keep in mind in the future.

As for the notching of the retainer tab that passes through the diaphragm fingers, it appers that it was rubbing on the outer diameter of the spring cage. This is not common, though it can happen...there is really not any major issue with this as it will wear away the softer metal on the tab. That being said, I will pass the need for clearancing the cage to engineering so we can get this eliminated in future units.

There seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding in regards to the rigid vs. sprung disc feeling when driven. It is true that a rigid hub disc will be a bit more "chrisp" during engagement but this is not inherently negative. I have driven both sprung and rigid discs and they each have their positive sides. A properly broken-in rigid disc will be smooth...as Alex can attest.

I hope this information helps in your understanding. Let me know if you all have any further questions. Thanks!!!

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J. Auvil
Jeremy@specclutch.com
800-828-4379 x.109

Wow....I'm impressed....how many non-Fiero specific parts vendors would join this forum to be able to answer questions and relay concerns to R&D...


well done Jeremy, now THAT's customer service!


-T

Update. Today I finished the 500 miles and did my ultimate test which is a quick shift 1st-2nd and 2nd-3rd under hard WOT acceleration. I'm glad it passed with flying colors with no slipage like the previous unit. This things holds great and have no chater at all. I'm happy

Excellent!
I'm happy that the new disc is working out for you.

Thanks for the update.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Excellent! I'm happy that the new disc is working out for you. Thanks for the update.

whats the latest on the springless disc? how does it drive compared to the stage 3+

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: whats the latest on the springless disc? how does it drive compared to the stage 3+

Uhhh... Please read again all above. I like it much more.