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  adding more than 110 HP on a stock 3800 + turbo without any internal mod????

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adding more than 110 HP on a stock 3800 + turbo without any internal mod???? by perry rhodan
Started on: 05-29-2007 05:11 PM
Replies: 27
Last post by: vortecfiero on 06-06-2007 06:59 PM
perry rhodan
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Report this Post05-29-2007 05:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for perry rhodanClick Here to visit perry rhodan's HomePageClick Here to Email perry rhodanSend a Private Message to perry rhodanDirect Link to This Post
How much maximum turbo pressure and how much HP I should expect from a naturally aspirated GM 3800 V6 equipped with a custom Turbo setup?

I saw on some site that sell custom turbo setup that I can gain more than 100 HP on a stock motor equipped with these Turbo....

http://www.3800performance....e=PA&Product_Count=0

Now what everyone is wanting to know... on a completely stock L36 vehicle (which makes 160 HP on the dyno, 200 HP to the crank), the Cartuning Performance Stage 1 Turbo Kit makes 280 HP to the wheels and over 300 lb-ft of torque to the wheels. That is 350 HP to the crank, which is a 150 HP gain over stock!! How's that for one day's worth of work? The Stage 1 Kit is completely streetable, and is suitable for customers that want to bolt-on a turbo kit to a stock L36 vehicle that has little to no modifications and wants an exciting daily driver without having to modify it for months and months (sometime years!) only to get minimal performance gains.

Im a little bit sckeptic...whitout dropping the compression ratio...and they dont talk about doing this...

[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 05-29-2007).]

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Report this Post05-29-2007 05:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareDirect Link to This Post
There are many 3800 NA cars in the W-bosy world running around with that turbo kit. You can only push so much boost with the NA motor before something goes in it. I was going to buy a ZZP turbo kit for a build but after looking at it closely, the kit would not work as they sold it. With the turbo kit made for the W-body in a Fiero, the turbo looks to hit the firewall. I am not 100% on this but from looking at pictures the kits, this will be an issue. Just a little thought.
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perry rhodan
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Report this Post05-29-2007 08:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for perry rhodanClick Here to visit perry rhodan's HomePageClick Here to Email perry rhodanSend a Private Message to perry rhodanDirect Link to This Post
Just for some precision: I'm talking about the Gen II 3800.

The fact is that the normally aspirated 3800 (L36) have a 9.4:1 compression ratio and the forced induction (L67) is 8.5:1...and the stock SC only put 7.5 PSI in.

So how can they squeez 10 PSI of forced air in a relatively hi-compression NA engine (9.4:1) and be able to run reliably with a 100+ HP gain...and all this WITHOUT any internal engine mod., and, thats the wonder part, WITHOUT any knock...(dont forget that if the knock sensor module is solicited, it will negate any gain the engine have du to the continuously knocking engine)

I saw that their kit include 42 Lbs/hr ( !!!!!! ) injectors , a custom reprogrammed PCM...maybe they succeed this feat by recommending the use of the highest octane gaz with some octane booster put in it, and by injecting large amount of fuel to help the mixture and combustion chamber cool ( at the exepnse of very high fuel consumption) ... I can see anything else in their part list...

Do I miss something? Is there something I dont understand somewhere?

[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 05-29-2007).]

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bmwguru
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Report this Post05-29-2007 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruDirect Link to This Post
There are many "mysteries" to the turbo. We are running 25lbs of boost on a BMW and still driving it to the track. You can run alcohol injection, anti lag, etc. to help out.
I was concidering running a turbo in my 3800 N/A conversion, but I just wnt a fun car. My V8 is my fast car. I really don't like the whine of a supercharger. I'd stick with the L67 if you are going to turbo it. The lower the compression the higher the boost you can run. Higher octane fuel, too.
Just my thoughts,
Dave

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1999 Mercedes ML430, 450hp 1987 Fiero GT, 1986 Fiero SE-soon to be 3800, certified master technician

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perry rhodan
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Report this Post05-29-2007 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for perry rhodanClick Here to visit perry rhodan's HomePageClick Here to Email perry rhodanSend a Private Message to perry rhodanDirect Link to This Post
In fact I always read and ear that running a 9:1 + CR engine turbocharged/supercharged with more than 7-8 PSI with street fuel is going right into trouble (this without adding any other goodies)

So their claim "without any engine mod" can hide some other "exterior" involment, like adding , by the buyer expense, a water/alchool injectors, using very high octane gas and octane booster additive, very retarded timing, running very rich...

Well not very practical nor "elegant" solution for a daily driver...

Better tell my friend to go with the 3800 SC route , like you said... will be more safe, reliable and daily drivable.

[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 05-29-2007).]

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Report this Post05-29-2007 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AZStreakClick Here to Email AZStreakSend a Private Message to AZStreakDirect Link to This Post
Holy crap!
That costs more than an engine WITH a supercharger...

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Report this Post05-29-2007 10:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
Ummm... Toyota sells a supercharger kit for their small four bangers and they run at 10:1 compression...

Its not just compression ratio, but head and piston crown design. Granted... Toyota's small motors are all aluminum now...
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Report this Post05-29-2007 11:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for black88fieroClick Here to Email black88fieroSend a Private Message to black88fieroDirect Link to This Post
instense and zzp have turboed 3800 na and sc and made 600+ horsepower at the crank on stock bottom ends and have had no problems, the restriction is heads and cam.

------------------
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[This message has been edited by black88fiero (edited 05-29-2007).]

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Report this Post05-30-2007 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
The NA compression ratio is not ideal for a turbo setup, but it is VERY effective on the street with up to 15psi (or more) of boost is properly cammed and setup. The only problem with this compression ratio is knocking, and if you can get a turbo cam in there that can get the boost in and out, you will be all set. The advantage of the L67 motor is a bit tougher pistons, but the N/A motor can handle the 300+whp for as long as you want, as long as its tuned properly.

But the fact that the turbo is very capable of making 20+psi of boost all day with less heat than a blower at 15psi, there are advantages to dropping the compression down to what a supercharged motor runs.
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perry rhodan
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Report this Post05-30-2007 05:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for perry rhodanClick Here to visit perry rhodan's HomePageClick Here to Email perry rhodanSend a Private Message to perry rhodanDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

But the fact that the turbo is very capable of making 20+psi of boost all day with less heat than a blower at 15psi, there are advantages to dropping the compression down to what a supercharged motor runs.


I'm not sure about that...the adiabatic performance of a SC VS a Turbo is better. The only way a Turbo can achieve better level of adiabatic performance is by using an intercooler. A centrifugal supercharger will inject less heat in the air than a turbo. The root kind of supercharger is less efficient thant a turbo. It alway depend on the type on compressor compared.

But I didnt question the HP output....but by the physic law that happens in an explosion engine, a normal engine with this much CR can only handle an certain amount of cylinder pressure before going in trouble because of self ingition or other hi compression problem. If the guy run this setup with only 92 octane fuel, I wonder if it will really develop all the HP advertised on the L36...the computer will maybe retard the ignition all it can and reduce accordingly the power expected.

Dont forget guy, that they claim that no other mod is necessary to the engine...you only have to bolt on the turbo kit. No turbo cam, no modified head...only hi CR stock motor.

Youre talking to me with engine mod...here, no engine mod.

Thats why I asked...maybe someone know their secret...

[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 05-30-2007).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post05-30-2007 07:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
Its no secret that these motors can handle and put down serious power. I imagine that he is running stock timing, and an intercooler, so that 10psi that he is getting, is the same that the supercharged motors get, but about 150 degrees colder, as they run a very nice air to water IC. The knocking can be kept down by running slightly rich, or with slighly less timing.

The sad part of that is, they could throw an extra $1000 into the motor to get a fully supported cam, and a full time power tuner, and run 420WHP easily, on the NA motor, without it exploding. The compression ratio is negligable in these setups, as it really just is "free boost" per say. The n/a motors will preform better with less boost for obvious reasons, as why EVERYONE of my friends run L26 blocks under their supercharged setups. They do this because the blower loses alot of efficency around 14psi, so instead of making more boost on the blower, they raise the compression ratio. In the case of modded turbo motors, they can run more boost, and lower compression because the turbos make the boost they want.

The n/a motors are proven to easily handle 6-7psi of supercharged boost without any problems, while the stock L67's cant handle much more than 10, so it works out right when comparing to a turbo setup. The L67 can easily handle 13psi fully intercooled, turbo or blower intercooled, so expecting a fully intercooled n/a motor to handle 10psi is not that far out of the question.

So basicly, there are no tricks, there are reasons why many on this board say that 3800's are the best fiero swap motor, and there are reasons why companies make performance parts for them, and there are reasons why they are running 9.01 on completely stock bottom ends. The motor is just a good motor that easily handles tons of power.
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perry rhodan
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Report this Post05-30-2007 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for perry rhodanClick Here to visit perry rhodan's HomePageClick Here to Email perry rhodanSend a Private Message to perry rhodanDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, I believe what you said about these 3800

And no problem with the L67...but when I talked with the guys who sell the kit, He and I was talking about the L36.

Stock...completely stock.

And like you said

 
quote
The n/a motors are proven to easily handle 6-7psi of supercharged boost without any problems, while the stock L67's cant handle much more than 10, so it works out right when comparing to a turbo setup. The L67 can easily handle 13psi fully intercooled, turbo or blower intercooled, so expecting a fully intercooled n/a motor to handle 10psi is not that far out of the question.


and their kit didnt have any after cooler...The only "mod" I'm aware of is the 42 lbs injectors and the PCM.


Thats why I'm still wondering..whats the trick...if they didnt use any intercooler, any hi octane fuel...

I'm still skeptical. I will have to see it to beleve it.

I will resend another email to the guy..and I will try to extract from him more hint about the trick..
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perry rhodan
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Report this Post05-30-2007 07:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for perry rhodanClick Here to visit perry rhodan's HomePageClick Here to Email perry rhodanSend a Private Message to perry rhodanDirect Link to This Post
Its done..I sent another email to the guy...asking more explanation...since they give a CD-Rom with their kit, maybe the "trick" is explained here...it look too good to be true.

Edit: The guy replied to me very fast. He wanted me to cll him to explain me...but since my spoken english is as bad as your spoken french, I declined the invitation and asked him to briefly explain me the major fact of their kit to be successfull on the L36 with 10 PSI.

[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 05-30-2007).]

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Chris Hodson
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Report this Post05-31-2007 04:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Chris HodsonSend a Private Message to Chris HodsonDirect Link to This Post
If i ever turbo'ed an N/a i would be happy with the vac being zero in the intake manifold.
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Report this Post05-31-2007 09:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RandomTaskClick Here to Email RandomTaskSend a Private Message to RandomTaskDirect Link to This Post
The problem you're going to run into on the 3800's is knock. Until you're making serious HP, you're going to be dealing with KR rather than keeping the bottom end together. The bottom end to these motors has been proven to take upwards of 600hp STOCK. Some of the guys are running 25+psi on their L67's. I was going to redo my bottom end on my current 3800 but after talking to every body, I decided to just rock the stock internals. You're going to need to get that motor to flow a hell of a lot more before you are going to blow it up. Port and Polish heads, cam, intercooler, exhaust, etc. . .
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Report this Post05-31-2007 11:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AP2kClick Here to Email AP2kSend a Private Message to AP2kDirect Link to This Post
I'm curious, can the 3800's take much more revs? I forget the redline, but isnt it around 6000? I'd really like to hit 7000-7500 with it. Think aluminum pistons and forged steel rods could do it?
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Report this Post05-31-2007 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AP2k:

I'm curious, can the 3800's take much more revs? I forget the redline, but isnt it around 6000? I'd really like to hit 7000-7500 with it. Think aluminum pistons and forged steel rods could do it?


An OHV engine can't really take the stress of high RPMs. Get an OHC or DOHC engine to go higher in the RPMs. You can build an OHV engine to rev high, but the cost per HP gained vs reliability factor doesn't make much sense.
Dave
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Report this Post05-31-2007 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AP2kClick Here to Email AP2kSend a Private Message to AP2kDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


An OHV engine can't really take the stress of high RPMs. Get an OHC or DOHC engine to go higher in the RPMs. You can build an OHV engine to rev high, but the cost per HP gained vs reliability factor doesn't make much sense.
Dave


The main drawback for OHV engines reaching high revs is valvetrain resistance and mass. An aluminum roller rocker kit and aluminum pushrods can take the mass down considerably. Arent roller rockers lubricated internally? Or do they use oil from the pushrods? If thats the case, mechanical lifters would help out alot with making it lighter as you can use aluminum (I believe.... )

The LS7 engine still uses po-boy OHV design and revs to 7k.

[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 05-31-2007).]

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Report this Post05-31-2007 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for goatnipples2002Click Here to visit goatnipples2002's HomePageClick Here to Email goatnipples2002Send a Private Message to goatnipples2002Direct Link to This Post
How much juice can the L67/L36 handle

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 05-31-2007).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post05-31-2007 10:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
as much as you can run without knocking, which depends on your setup alot.

Stock motor, might handle a 50 wet shot. If your bored, you could try spraying a 150/200 onto a semi built N/A motor (cam/exhaust).
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Report this Post06-02-2007 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JCUOITSend a Private Message to JCUOITDirect Link to This Post
I have spoken with Cartuning aswell and didnt get very far with them on the fiero basis. they are busy with turbo kits for F-Bodys right now, but had some good general info on the 3800 S2.

I want to build a turbo setup for an NA 3800 S2 off of the research they've done on the L36. i chose the L36 mainly because they are more plentiful and because the engine is more fuel effecient off boost than the L67 that runs lower compression.

I've been told that the series 1 3800 was the same SC or NA, GM just slapped on a blower. with the series 2, so i've been told, the engine was designed to be supercharged from the begining. Does this mean that both the NA and supercharged motors are equally made? or does this mean that the supercharged motor has stronger componants and the NA motor recieves less expencive or weaker componants?

Hypothetically, if they both ran the same compression ratio, which could take more power without destroying its self?

JC
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perry rhodan
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Report this Post06-02-2007 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for perry rhodanClick Here to visit perry rhodan's HomePageClick Here to Email perry rhodanSend a Private Message to perry rhodanDirect Link to This Post
Like I previously said,in the serie II the NA have a much higher CR than the SC. 9.4:1 for the NA and 8.5:1 for the SC. The rest looks to be identical (for the block and the bottom)

The series 1 3800, LN3 and L27 are in the same family thant the Serie II L36 and L67, but the engine architecture is very different. They cannot be directly compared.

I dont know why the peoples here are sticking about the fact the the series II 3800 can take so much HP, when my first question, was that I was wondering how can an NA engine can take more than 10 PSI of boost without any other help (my main argument was pre-ingnition, knocking etc)....it was not a question of yes or no if the bottom end can take it, or the head can flow it or whatever else....

It's just a question of NA engine capacity to process forced induction boost in excess of 10 PSI without any other trick, help than a SC ou a turbo and without any knock.
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Report this Post06-03-2007 12:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by perry rhodan:

Like I previously said,in the serie II the NA have a much higher CR than the SC. 9.4:1 for the NA and 8.5:1 for the SC. The rest looks to be identical (for the block and the bottom)

The series 1 3800, LN3 and L27 are in the same family thant the Serie II L36 and L67, but the engine architecture is very different. They cannot be directly compared.

I dont know why the peoples here are sticking about the fact the the series II 3800 can take so much HP, when my first question, was that I was wondering how can an NA engine can take more than 10 PSI of boost without any other help (my main argument was pre-ingnition, knocking etc)....it was not a question of yes or no if the bottom end can take it, or the head can flow it or whatever else....

It's just a question of NA engine capacity to process forced induction boost in excess of 10 PSI without any other trick, help than a SC ou a turbo and without any knock.


Undoubtedly some people are going to disagree with what I am about to say. I have been over this many times; but here we go again.

Specifically talking about the 3800 Series II family of engines; the main difference between the N/A and SC versions when talking about strengh is the connecting rods, pistons, and piston pins. The difference between the versions of these parts used in SC engines vs. N/A engines is the SC versions are much thicker/stronger than their N/A counterparts. I have verified this with side-by-side comparison and measuring (size, weight, etc).

Now many people not only here in the Fiero community but also in the Grand Prix community have said you can run boost on N/A internals. Well, you can. But would I? NO. There is a reason why GM spent the extra money to beef up these internal parts in the SC versions of this engine. And it wasn't to spend more money. There is a durability factor involved that I think sometimes gets overlooked by people who advocate the prospect of putting boost on N/A internals.

I'm not saying that you couldn't run boost (maybe even a lot of it) on an N/A engine and have it survive. It is possible. However, your margin for error is going to be much more slim than if you were using SC internals. Now people like to throw around the term "perfect tune" when talking about how much boost you can run and how much power you can get out of an N/A engine. Well that's fine if you live in a perfect world where the weather conditions never change. But the fact of the matter still remains that it is going to be almost impossible to have a perfect tune on any engine that stays perfect throughout the year. Therefore I believe in having a little bit of a safety net in case the tune isn't 100% perfect (or you happen to get ahold of some bad gas), and that means running internal parts that are DESIGNED to hold up to the stress of boost.

So that's what this is going to come down to: DURABILITY. How much do you want? Do you want to spend your money on an engine with better internals or would you rather spend your money replacing N/A engines if they don't hold up to the pressure?

-ryan

------------------
power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post06-03-2007 02:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
When ryan refers to many people in the gtp and fiero community, is is refering basicly to me only

I would never ever ever dream of doing a turbo setup on a na motor, it would be completely retarded if I had the choice.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 06-03-2007).]

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Report this Post06-06-2007 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WikedV6Click Here to Email WikedV6Send a Private Message to WikedV6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:
I would never ever ever dream of doing a turbo setup on a na motor, it would be completely retarded if I had the choice.



Well, we have converted plenty of NA motors to forced induction motors. Of course we did change the pistons and the cam, sometimes better heads and stronger main caps. We have made anywhere from 400-650 RWH with the old pre 1988 Buick V6 motors. I believe that the new generation 3800 gen I, gen II and even the just the 3800 motors are stronger that the ones we mess with. If you look at John Lindsey here on the board, he has gone 12.0 with no IC on his car. It is a 1987 3.8 motor He changed the cam and pistons and reinforced the middle two main caps. That motor will make close to 500 hp and when he is done he will be some where in the very low 11's or high 10's .Trust me the man has skills. I think he got his GN powered 240 Z in the low 9's with minimal stuff.

I think if you do your research and build 3800 NA motor into forced induction motor with proper pistons and minimal changes, it will live as long as you set it up with proper fuel/timing management. As long you don't detonate, the motor it will stay together. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Here is one, I know he has done internal work to the motor but even without it, will stay together at the power level that he is making right now.

http://www.fquick.com/garag...let/Camaro/1997/125/

------------------
"Turbo Cars are like hot women. A little edgy, every guy wants one, some guys can't handle them, and if you throw a little alchohol in the mix they'll rock your world"
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Report this Post06-06-2007 02:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
As I see it the main disadvantage to boosting a stock 3800 N/A is the 9.5:1 compression ratio. It is a respected practice to boost engines normally having 8-8.5:1 C/R. On engines with higher compression the boost must be lowered to around 5 psi or your composite C/R could be as high as 15 to 16:1- high enough cylinder pressure to blow a cast piston or a rod, even w/o detonation. As pointed out the stock 3800 N/A internals are not 3800SC internals, so this engine will need to handle the stress of the extra power with lower bottom end strength,
Can you just drop a turbo on a 3800 N/A and go-sure! The question then becomes how much boost will you run and how long will the engine last? If you decide to boost a 3800 N/A do yourself a favor and at the very minimum invest in a quality set of 8:5:1 C/R pistons and consider using intercooled boost or alcohol/water injection to guard against detonation if you up the boost.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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perry rhodan
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From: Roxton Pond, Quebec,Canada
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Report this Post06-06-2007 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for perry rhodanClick Here to visit perry rhodan's HomePageClick Here to Email perry rhodanSend a Private Message to perry rhodanDirect Link to This Post
The guy never return me my last email...I think that a place that sell turbo kit that didnt reply and spending this much money in this kind of kit, dont look serious to me. Its again another place that sell "gimmick" stuff to make money, without any descent knowledge of what they are doing or they are very dishonest in their advertising and selling technique.

A place to avoid.
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vortecfiero
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From: Toronto Area, Canada
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Report this Post06-06-2007 06:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for vortecfieroClick Here to visit vortecfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email vortecfieroSend a Private Message to vortecfieroDirect Link to This Post
shoot kevin an email...
here is his site. It looks like the place you were trying to contact is selling kevin's stuff anyways.
I've seen these kits and hang out with kevin from time to time
awsum intro too lol

www.cartuning.ca

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87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6
Bully Stage 2 clutch
Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner
Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection
50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump
LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system
T31/T04B S4 turbo with a Super T61 in the box
S10 caliper conversion.
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

[This message has been edited by vortecfiero (edited 06-06-2007).]

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