Alright - I've got the Fiero home, and after a couple of days with the Iron Duke, I've come to the conclusion that 95 horsepower just doesn't cut it in today's world, where 65 miles per hour is an average speed limit for most interstates. (West Virginia has some spots of 70 MPH.)

So I'm throwing around a couple of ideas for lightweight, yet powerful (for their size) engines. I'm trying to gather more information than I already have grabbed off of reading about the already completed Ecotec swaps, among what people have done in other cars with these engines.

The Cobalt SS runs a supercharged, 205 horsepower, 2.0 liter Ecotec motor, the LSJ. Mates up to the Getrag F23 transmission. The whole assembly physically fits within the Fiero's dimensions. But I can't tell how much of a pain it is going to be to actually install into the Fiero, compliments of mounting points, etc. Is it even a likely candidate? Or am I severely barking up the wrong tree on this one? I understand that all Ecotecs require cutting into the cradle a bit, and am willing to make this sacrafice (just re-weld an extra brace onto the cradle if it's really necessary.) I'm not too worried about wiring, because I'm going to be re-wiring this entire Fiero anyway, no matter which setup I finally decide on. If expensive, custom axles are going to be needed, I'll have to figure out prices and such before I go ahead with trying this engine as my #1 swap option. My question here is, how difficult do you guys suspect mounting this engine/transmission combination would be?

The second engine is the non-supercharged Cobalt SS motor, the 173 horsepower, 2.4 liter Ecotec motor, the LE5. Again - mates up to the Getrag F23 transmission. Seeing as it fits in the cobalt in the same dimensions as the LSJ, it, too, fits into the Fiero well physically. But again - mounting locations are a major question mark. Also - wiring on this motor, because it's an electronic throttle body, with VVT, will be a bit more tricky, but not impossible. This motor also has amazing potential in terms of turbocharging. I'm just not sure how I'm going to go about it. As with the LSJ, I'm going to have to research the axles a bit more before I make a final decision for this engine as a swap option. Once again, I have to ask, how difficult, on a scale of 1-10, mounting this engine/transmission combination would be?

What about other lightweight motor options? There is the 2.2 liter Ecotec available, but I'm iffy about playing with it. The aftermarket is there, but with the LSJ and LE5 now available, I'm not sure as to how much longer it will have a viable aftermarket in comparison to the LSJ and LE5.

Are there any decent lightweight V6's or V8's available that would work in the Fiero? I don't want to do the 3800, because it is heavy. The 3.4 DOHC is also real heavy. So those two motors are counted out. I thought about taking a GM 3400 (the 3.4 pushrod motor), doing a 3500 top-end swap onto the motor, and using it with mild boost, but I'm not sure of its weight in comparison to the Ecotec motors, and have not found, in two weeks of searching, any conclusive information towards the weight of a 3400. The LS2 was also a thought for a motor for a while, but I'm trying to decide if the weight is worth it in a car I want to be able to throw around and hold the ground throughout every (relatively) high-G turn I throw at it. I already have my "straight-line" car, and am just looking for something light, but fun, to throw through an auto-cross track.

The other 100% must for this car is, it 100% absolutely must have a manual transmission. I'm tired of automatics. They're "old news" to me. I'm mostly doing this whole Fiero build to learn more about other vehicular technologies. That's partially why a 3x00 pushrod motor with 4t60e swap is my least likely candidate. I've done the 3400+4t60e three times, and am planning on doing it a fourth with a 3500 top-end swap into a 1996 Monte Carlo LS. The G6 6-speed, the Cobalt 5-speed, and the Getrag 282 are all viable transmission options, depending on my engine choice. But now it's a matter of gathering more information before I go ahead with even purchasing anything for the build. The one thing I know I want to do is swap to an '88 engine cradle and rear suspension. I'll have to do more research on exactly how to do so at a later date, but that's a different thread for a different time, assuming I don't find an archived thread with the info first.

I have a website dedicated to my Fiero partially up-and-running, that will probably end up being a photo-blog of every repair, large or small, of every modification, large or small, and of every race and/or cruise, large or small. Like I said - the Fiero is going to be a huge learning experience for me. But I don't want to be greedy, and leave the whole experience internal. I want to share it with the Fiero community. Anyway, here's the site: My 1986 Pontiac Fiero (56k-ers, don't worry. The entire site is only 341.77 KB. Will grow in time, but for now, it's easy to load and read.)

[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 04-05-2007).]

thats a lot to digest.first , all 4 cyl ecotecs have the same basic dimensions.the heads manifolds etc. are all inter changeable.all of them will fit in a fiero .the manual transaxle fiero's axles are all the same and are a perfect match for the f23 tranny , no mods needed.but the supercharged motor has the f35 getrag i think and i dont know if it is the same .the turbo eco is a rear wheel drive motor ,so who knows how it will line up to a front drive tranny.i built the second running ecotec powered fiero.i thought it was an easy swap ,but i made my own motor and tranny mounts and used cavalier wiring and ecm/bcm etc. it is a very light motor and even stock is quite a bit faster than a 2.8 .frame mods are minimal ,mostly ac related.
a 3.4 pushrod is all cast iron , same as a 2.8 .
3800 pushrod is all cast iron but a very strong motor
8 cyl gm motors you can get everything from iron block and head to all aluminum motors that dont weigh much more than an old 2.8 .
what you put in depends on skill , time and money .i believe my 2.2 eco swap tranformed my fiero into a better handling , faster car .the initial swap cost about 1200.00 .i am turbocharging now and that is adding about another 1500.00 .but that will get me well over 200 hp at the rear wheels.

There's the Northstar... It's all aluminum. I've heard that it's lighter than the 2.8 V6.

If you're building an autocrosser, you might seriously consider one of the Ecotec's. They're lighter, rev higher than the Duke. It should be a spirited car. I'd look into some of the pre-88 bump-steer solutions before you go converting to an 88 cradle. There's more of them available and I've heard of at least a couple different options to eliminate bump-steer and improve adjustability.

Just my $.02 good luck and let us know what you decide.

------------------
Kendall (Icelander) Whitlatch
'85 Fiero 2M4 - 5spd Isuzu
'67 LeMans/GTO clone 6.5 litre TH400
All the rest aren't Pontiacs, so what does it matter?

I already know the 2.0 turbo in the Solstice won't work, that's a front-engine, rear drive system. What I was talking about is applying boost to the new 2.4 LE5, the non-supercharged Cobalt motor. So far, either the supercharged 2.0 or the n/a 2.4 seem to be my two best options. I'm going to use all the cobalt wiring, ECM, etc. in the Fiero, with some other custom work as well. But what I have to do is figure out motor mount and transmission mount situations, in that case. I lack the tools to fabricate my own mounts, but I've got a guy who's been supplying my custom metal parts for a good four years now, so finding parts/services for fabrication isn't going to be the problem. Mounting the Ecotec may prove to be a bit more expensive for me than $1200, but at the end of the day, a wonderful change for the car. For those frame modifications, were the cuts made in any heavy load-bearing areas? Or were they made in less "important" sections of the frame? Just trying to judge weather or not I'm going to have to weld in some reenforcement after making the cuts or not.

But if the AC is going to be that big a pain to get into the car, I may either do an A/C delete, or figure out another way to power the A/C compressor, so I can put it elsewhere. I've seen it done with an electric motor powering a small pulley system to run the A/C in an '80's Monte Carlo, mounted to the firewall. Kind of a silly setup, but it worked. It was unique. Who knows? Maybe I could relocate the entire A/C system to the front with some seriously large amount of custom work and a bit of time. Seems like too much to do for an area with a moderate climate like Long Island, though.

To Icelander:
Which would yield me a better overall handling vehicle? If I keep the '86 cradle, put in a bump-steer elimination package and a performance suspension kit? Or if I do an '88 cradle, and mod that setup with KONI coilovers, etc? Because now I'm trying to find the best setup for maximum lateral g's before the car starts to let go of the pavement. (And now I'm hijacking my own thread.)

All in all, I'm leaving the car stock for a couple of months while I build up a bit of a "Fiero Mod Fund" and a "parts counter" to work with, so I have some extra cash in case of any unforeseen needed parts (always going to be four bolts short. It's part of the fine print of Murphy's Law.), and some parts on hand to start actually working on the car. Seeing as the engine swap is probably going to be the most difficult and time consuming process of working on the Fiero, I'm going to save it for last, so I can have as much information, time, and energy as possible when I start the swap. I don't want this to be like my first ever engine swap 5 years ago when I decided to attempt a 3400 swap into a 1999 Monte Carlo LS. I got discouraged and had a friend of the family do most of the work because I had no clue what was involved. 5 years and two other (personally completed) engine swaps later, I'm finding that I'm learning more and more about the process. But I've never done a mid-mounted, rear-drive car before. I've only done front-mount-front-drive. I'm hoping my previous experience will help things go smoothly, but I don't expect anything to be easy. At all.

Everything else is getting changed or fixed first. Front suspension, all four brakes, the master cylinder, the weatherstripping, the headliner, the interior electronics, the passenger side headlight, and other minor things. I want the car to be able to handle well and stop quickly before being able to accelerate powerfully. Just like any other car I modify, safety is my number one concern, then from there, I focus on fun as my number two concern.

[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 04-06-2007).]

I think the Turbo 2.0 in the Sol/Sky would work. There may be issues but I seriously doubt that it is impossible or even that much more difficult.

Maybe, but I like the extreme tune-ability of both the LSJ and LE5. As I'm getting more and more information, the LE5 is becoming more and more attractive. (Parts that would kick rev tolerance up to an 8,000 RPM redline, as well as an extended powerband due to VVT programming, etc. I expect the non-supercharged SS to start selling better to educated tuners at this point, because the LSJ can only go so far.)

One of the reasons they made the 2.0 was to hit higher RPMs. GM runs the 2.0 configuration to 1400HP. Tuning doesn't get much more extreme. True the 2.4 is better than the 2.2. One of the reasons it will hit higher RPMs is probably due to the stronger rods and pistons and of course it has VVT which is nice. Not arguing against the 2.4, in fact quite the contrary.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/080870.html

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of either of the new Ecotecs, but I like the idea of a boosted LE5 a little more, because it's easier to control the boost from the turbo than the S/C. (Pushing a button or turning a knob versus changing a pulley.) So I can run one setting for the street (Low boost, good mileage, 87-89 octane) and one setting for racing. (Moderate boost, moderate mileage, 91+ octane.)

I would not go with the 2.4L Ecotec unless u plan on doing the entire cobalt wiring as well. Ive doing the 2.2 ecotec using a standalone ecm. Ive talked with Bates engineering (make the adapter plate for the ecotec to bolt to all FWD trannys) and was told w/o boost the 2.2 can get up to 300hp. With a good tuning I hope to be in the 170 range almost completely stock. ( I will have access to a dyno very soon)

But from what ive learned from the few ecotec swaps I think the most cost worthy ecotec swap would be this

Megasquirt ECM
2.2 Ecotec L61
F23 Getrag

I beleive WTFB paid about 800 for his tranny/motor combo and you can get a MS unit and OBD1 DIS for around 500. This swap could be done for under 2k. Add a turbo setup and you gonna have one sweet car like WTFBs!

Wait, I am confused. The LE5 is a new Ecotec, 2.4 VVT, right? Were you thinking Twin Cam (LD9), maybe? Like the z24 or Aleros had?

EDIT: You meant the new 2.4 VVT, I was just having a hard time understanding with the way I read it.

The LE5 would be great for a Turbo, IMO. Forged rods and pistons. Hahnracecraft.com has some interesting stuff for them. 400hp or so on stock internals, though we will see what the longevity of the LE5 at those pressures will be.

I said nothing of using a supercharger. The Sol and Sky are turbo.

The only caveat with the LE5 would be losing the VVT by going with a standalone, but I believe it makes more sense to begin with it even if you are only doing moderate boost. A lot and you may as well to the Eco build book. The stock 2.2 will probably grenade around 270HP according to GM. But, I don't profess to be an expert.

Whatever you do, keep us informed. I for one want to hear about it as I am trying to make up my mind as well. I am still leaning LY7 and an eventual 6T75E.

[This message has been edited by sYkboy (edited 04-06-2007).]

I intend on bringing the Cobalt wiring over to the Fiero, because I'm more used to it. While it may be easier to use the stock Fiero wiring with a standalone on the 2.2 ecotec, I think it could be interesting to use the new 2.4 ecotec's wiring from the cobalt. Should prove to be a rather - challenging, but worth the effort, setup. I may even end up using the Cobalt gauge cluster with a custom interior setup, too. Everything depends on how the ECM is setup. If the stock ECM doesn't allow for much change, I may resort to the 2.2 and working with it. But if the stock cobalt ECM allows for future growth, I think the VVT, combined with a bit of boost (7-10 PSI), we could see a nice li'l car here. It's just a matter of getting things together, buckling down, and doing it all.

Like I said - I'm not too worried about the wiring of the car. I've got a few years' experience with different wiring setups to know how to get the Cobalt's wiring into the Fiero. But what I am worried about is actually getting everything physically into the car, for example, taking this automatic Fiero and turning it into a manual. I've never done an auto-to-manual conversion. It seems straightforward, but it still worries me a little. But it's the little things that are all plaguing me now. Because I've pretty much got the big picture down both in my head and on paper. (And in simulation software, too, but that doesn't count.)

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good plan to me. I am probably going to just set up a Megasquirt and just not use the VVT for now. Supposedly this has been done; I need to find the particulars. Eventually I think the Megasquirt will handle transmissions and continuous VVT. The VVT that has only to engage is not that big of a deal. It would be nice if even more people would pitch in and make the "open source" tuning community able to deal with up to the minute technologies.

The VVT ecotec is the most different of the 3 motors. The 2.2 can go as far as the others with upgrades (rods give at 270 is what u have heard)

I think the wiring is a huge thing to consider, my megasquirt is all wired in my fiero for my ecotec, less than 30 wires total. Im just waiting on my flywheel. Took me about 6~7 hours to wire it. I just havent posted any pics because of the lack of interest. I also intended a plug in play Megasquirt setup for a NA 2.2 ( of course you could always upgrade it) but again there isnt enough interest in it.

One of the things that make be of interest the LSJ motors have oil sprayers for the pistons to help resist knock and help cooling, but I degress, the 2.2 is cheap and plentiful, if I break mine I will store it and buy another one. I purchased it on a subcradle including the tranny for 300 bucks. 38k on it.

i paid 1000.00 cdn plus tax for all this:2.2 eco and 5speed tranny intact with all wiring and clutch hydraulics mounted and funtional
air filter ,intake and airbox mounted on throttle body
entire car 2004 cavalier wiring harness (front to back ,everything)
steering collum with key in ignition
cavalier shifter and cables
one cavalier axle

later i bought and added to the car :cavalier fuel pump ,cavalier instrument cluster cost 195.00 for both.
now i am turbocharging the car .a lot of trial and error but i am avoiding big buck store bought kits and i am close to where i want to be (200 rw hp)with driveability.

the AC just requires a notch on the hooped section of the front crossmember not load bearing on my car but if you use mounts in the stock position you should box it after the cut.



this fellow makes mounts .he had a running car at daytona this year

roger thelin
2618 ne 18th terr.
gainesville FL
32601
pm kmunson56 for more info ,i think he is the go between for these products


right now i am waiting on a methanol injection kit an aeromotive fuel pressure regulator so i am running on very limited boost till then
check out my thread ecotec swap

quote Originally posted by Ravant: Maybe, but I like the extreme tune-ability of both the LSJ and LE5. As I'm getting more and more information, the LE5 is becoming more and more attractive. (Parts that would kick rev tolerance up to an 8,000 RPM redline, as well as an extended powerband due to VVT programming, etc. I expect the non-supercharged SS to start selling better to educated tuners at this point, because the LSJ can only go so far.)

I'm a big fan of GM's VVT 2.4. I have one in my 06 Solstice and I've been able to squeek out just under 200hp with nothing more than a ceramic coated shorty header, a larger catalaytic converter (500cfm from 350cfm) and a cold-air intake kit. It absolutely amazes me at how well this motor responds to modifications. When I got my car, with all the restrictive GM crap on it, I was running mid 15s on a good day. With what I've done to it, I'm breaking into the 14s. I do NOT have a problem beating cars from the stop-light drags that are 2 or 3 times more expensive than my car. 350Z, BMW 330, Lexus LS460... they just don't stand a chance. The power is crazy from this little motor... it sometimes even breaks the tires loose on my shift from 2nd to 3rd when I'm REALLY REALLY wailing on it.

I can only imagine how it will perform in a mid-engined car with 300-350 pounds less weight.

The hardest part is dealing with the computer. You're going to want to find an ENTIRE package basically...
I'd check around eBay... Mallet and a couple of other companies do swaps into the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky. With the 2.4 motors that are in there, they just take the ENTIRE thing out, and turn around and sell it as a package on eBay. I've seen quite a few on there with less than 10k miles.

It's a great little motor...
You could always go with the Quad-4 swap and keep the OBD-1.

------------------
Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car)
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2) 5-Speed
1984 Porsche 944 5-Speed
1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB)
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

For anyone interested in the L61 motors and LSJ motors, there is a site that allows you to download the GM build books on them for free. Very worthwhile, and there is a lot more information on there if you look around, like even a CAD drawing of the ecotecs bolt pattern too if I remember and some info and specs on some of GM's high performance ecotecs: dragsters, drifting, landspeed breakers, etc. The site is just below.

http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/

I wonder, does the LD9 (2.4 twin-cam) supercharger kit work on an LE5 (2.4 DOHC w/ VVT)?

I seriously doubt it. No. I thought you were thinking turbo? There is a 2.2 Eco supercharger kit that may, you would want a smaller pulley, of course and it may not flow the air you will want. Turbo, turbo, turbo, TURBO!

check out mantapart.they have lots of eco and twin cam stuff.some of it is on sale .no matter how you slice it though ,the best bang for the buck is the 2.2 .it is easily tuned to 200hp without a blower and supercharger and tubocharger kits are readily available .and if you are used to the power of a stock 2.8 ,you will be pleasantly surprised by the performance of this supposedly only 145 hp motor .
i decided not to mess with any of the older gm 4 cylinders .some of them were good motors in their day but i found a lot of them had recurring problems .and i wanted to put in an entire motor and tranny package and leave the weak fiero trannys behind .the cavalier wiring is all just plug and play ,the only problem is figuring out what part of the harness you are not going to use.what is left of my fiero harness runs the lights ,heater ,radio and voltmeter .the cavalier harness runs everything .no splicing involved other than a positive feed to the fiero junction block near the battery.

quote Originally posted by sYkboy: I seriously doubt it. No. I thought you were thinking turbo? There is a 2.2 Eco supercharger kit that may, you would want a smaller pulley, of course and it may not flow the air you will want. Turbo, turbo, turbo, TURBO!

Ehh - I was just throwing around ideas. Actually, superchargers should be left to the SBC guys. Their engines have torque to spare for the powering of the S/C. Turbo's have less parasitic loss, and are better suited for 4-cyl and small 6-cyl motors, IMO.

The whole idea behind this thread, at least for me, is to compile what all the Ecotec guys know into a thread so it's easier to make a decision if I want to do the 2.2, 2.4 VVT, or LSJ. They're all really nice ideas. The 2.2 or the 2.4 VVT seem like the most likely candidates for me right now, unless someone has a compelling argument as to why I should use the LSJ. (Other than most initial horsepower.)