1988 Pontiac Fiero Formula 2.8 with 5 spd

Hydraulic clutch system is apparently full of air. We flushed the system in two different ways:

1) Fill the reservoir with new fluid, open the bleeder valve on the slave cylinder, depressed the clutch, close the bleeder valve, release clutch.

2) Fill the reservoir with new fluid, pump the clutch several times and hold depressed, open the bleeder valve to allow the pressure out, close the bleeder valve, release clutch.

Both of these for over 45 minutes each and when I pressed the pedal it still doesn't work. There is no real resistance either and during both processes lots and lots of bubbles come out forever like we're doing something wrong.

There don't seem to be any leaks of fluid, but I couldn't really say for sure about air leaking in.

It last worked yesterday before I pumped the new fluid through with the first method. It's been working for eons before that little stunt.

Err, and also the clutch master got replaced just the day before, and the clutch and slave cylinder are only 3 months old. But it was working fine between the day before yesterday and when I opened that can of brake fluid.

Please help I am currently without wheels to get to and from work and with an angry boss this is no good, at least its Friday.

go to v8 archie.com and look around. you have to bleed the slave by itself as well or use the search button

I used one of those vacuum pumps you use to bleed brakes with. You only need light vacuum ( about 5 to no more than 10 on the guage ). Just keep an eye on the m/cyl and top it off as needed. When there are`nt any more bubbles in the tube. Close the slave bleeder and you should be done. Advanced Auto carries them for 20 or 30 bucks.

Been there, done that. Gravity bleeding is the only way to go (for me).

Read learning curve here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-2-069312.html

Thanks to all for their input, unfortunately so far.. no dice

Archie's method makes sense except I never stopped getting air bubbles. Now normally I would agree that there must be a hole somewhere but there is no fluid leaking out anywhere after letting it sit overnight completely topped off.

As for a vacuume thingy I don't have the extra money right now (and I know its only 20 bucks but thats almost a tank of gas in the car I'm driving in the meantime. Payday is this coming friday)

Tried the gravity bleed method seemed to work ok I even have more pressure on the pedal than ever, I think the problem with this method is I only have the jack that came with the Fiero and some jackstands and cannot get the tires more than about 2 inches of the ground. If I am to aim for 6+ I am going to need a bigger better jack so I am looking for a floorjack from a friend or family. If there is a kind loving individual in south orange county (RSM is where I'm at) I'd be more than happy for assistance and buy you lunch/dinner/whatever after I get paid. Unfortunately until Friday I'm pretty well broke.. :-( any other advice/suggestions I'd be more than happy to hear and will try just about any method to bleed the clutch and have plenty of "minions" for pushing the pedal.. none with big jacks though :-(

ok, I didn;t bother reading thru all the other threads for the you must use this method. it is a simple hydraulic system. people get too carried away making things harder than they need to be.....
1. you don;t need to jack the car.
2. a complete fluid flush and air filled system only take 10 minutes to bleed with 2 people.
3. with your helper do this:
open the bleed, put in the hose and put the end in your jar.
grab the clutch for arm at the tranny and pull it towards the slave as far as you can. some people grab the rod with a visegrip to help pull it in.
after it is all the way back, with the valve still open have the helper step on the clutch, and hold it to the floor. close the bleed.
top the reserviour, release the pedal. open the bleed, pull back the rod again, step on clutch with rod held back, close bleed, top off, release pedal. open bleed, pull back the rod, should have no bubbles, if you do repeat the above. Never had to do it more that 4 times tho to purge the system. the slave will trap alot of air, you have to get that out and the rod fully retracted. if you hold it retracted while pressing the pedal, you will force all the air directly out the bleed and not allow it to build up in the slave. it is awkward to get in there to retract the rod, and I think that is where most people fail.

now if you can;t get it to stop bubbling, you have to be drawing air in to the system, with the slave held back, it is likely the master, but I think you just have a trapped air bubble in the slave.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 03-04-2007).]

I have yet to understand why one pumps the pedal to remove air. Seems to me all you do is turn one big air bubble into a million little ones. I just push with steady slow pressure until the air comes out. Close the bleeder. and repeat until you get no more air.
But there are many things I will never understand
Good Luck
Gary

quote Originally posted by GTPat: I used one of those vacuum pumps you use to bleed brakes with. You only need light vacuum ( about 5 to no more than 10 on the guage ). Just keep an eye on the m/cyl and top it off as needed. When there are`nt any more bubbles in the tube. Close the slave bleeder and you should be done. Advanced Auto carries them for 20 or 30 bucks.

i feel your pain, i just went through bleeding my car. i used the vacuum pump with great success. i jack the rear of the car up so the air would come out the slave. as stated above light vacuum and when no bubbles appear your good to go.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: open the bleed, put in the hose and put the end in your jar. grab the clutch for arm at the tranny and pull it towards the slave as far as you can. some people grab the rod with a visegrip to help pull it in. after it is all the way back, with the valve still open have the helper step on the clutch, and hold it to the floor. close the bleed. top the reserviour, release the pedal. open the bleed, pull back the rod again, step on clutch with rod held back, close bleed, top off, release pedal. open bleed, pull back the rod, should have no bubbles, if you do repeat the above. Never had to do it more that 4 times tho to purge the system. the slave will trap alot of air, you have to get that out and the rod fully retracted. if you hold it retracted while pressing the pedal, you will force all the air directly out the bleed and not allow it to build up in the slave. it is awkward to get in there to retract the rod, and I think that is where most people fail.

Can someone clarify this for me I don't quite get it. I very much appreciate the advice just don't quite understand what needs doing for this method.

EDIT: Also where can I pull in 4" long bubbles (1/4" tubing) without having fluid coming out anywhere? I'm going bonkers trying to figure this out.

[This message has been edited by divilspawn (edited 03-05-2007).]

How old is the clutch and the slave cylinder?

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

quote Originally posted by divilspawn: Can someone clarify this for me I don't quite get it. I very much appreciate the advice just don't quite understand what needs doing for this method. EDIT: Also where can I pull in 4" long bubbles (1/4" tubing) without having fluid coming out anywhere? I'm going bonkers trying to figure this out.

the air is getting in thru the end seals of either the master or slave cylinder. there are a couple of people who have various fixes for this.
the easiest to see if it is the slave tho is to remove the rubber boot and fill that with grease, which acts like a seal (at least for a while).
the master doesn/t have a quick workaround, other than replace or rebuild if it is in good shape....

as for the procedure I posted, do you have questions? that is basic bleeding method.... the hard part is pulling in the slave pushrod, to purge the slave cylinder.

Well now that you have tried all the other ways of doing it try to do it like it says in the FRM (Factory Repair Manual), it works GREAT!!

1. Put a clear drainage hose over the Clutch Slave bleeder valve, put the other end in a bottle for the fluid to drain into.
2. Open the Clutch Reservoir and fill with DOT3 fluid.
3. Using a 13mm wrench open the bleeder valve and leave open.
4. Depress the clutch pedal as far as it will go and slide your foot off of the pedal so it snaps back as fast as possible. Repeat this procedure until all the old oil and any air bubbles are out of the system. Your helper can keep filling the reservoir and keep an eye on the drainage hose to tell when you're finished.
5. On the last depression of the pedal hold pedal down and tighten bleeder screw.

I did the brakes and clutch on my 88GT last Saturday and was done in about 30 minutes. My brake system was totally empty and had set for over a year.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: the air is getting in thru the end seals of either the master or slave cylinder. there are a couple of people who have various fixes for this. the easiest to see if it is the slave tho is to remove the rubber boot and fill that with grease, which acts like a seal (at least for a while). the master doesn/t have a quick workaround, other than replace or rebuild if it is in good shape.... as for the procedure I posted, do you have questions? that is basic bleeding method.... the hard part is pulling in the slave pushrod, to purge the slave cylinder.

I'd be willing to think it was a bad part if it weren't a brand new master cylinder with a fairly new slave and clutch. How hard is it to replace the lines and is there a way to test them aside from looking for leaks?

The Procedure I think confused me with the wording/my reading of it. It looks like it's just the same method on v8archie's page and I tried that to no avail :-(

quote Originally posted by Rodney: How old is the clutch and the slave cylinder?

About 3 months and 10,000 miles. This is within about 1000 miles, and both were replaced at the same time.

quote Originally posted by Fiero1Fan: Well now that you have tried all the other ways of doing it try to do it like it says in the FRM (Factory Repair Manual), it works GREAT!! 1. Put a clear drainage hose over the Clutch Slave bleeder valve, put the other end in a bottle for the fluid to drain into. 2. Open the Clutch Reservoir and fill with DOT3 fluid. 3. Using a 13mm wrench open the bleeder valve and leave open. 4. Depress the clutch pedal as far as it will go and slide your foot off of the pedal so it snaps back as fast as possible. Repeat this procedure until all the old oil and any air bubbles are out of the system. Your helper can keep filling the reservoir and keep an eye on the drainage hose to tell when you're finished. 5. On the last depression of the pedal hold pedal down and tighten bleeder screw. I did the brakes and clutch on my 88GT last Saturday and was done in about 30 minutes. My brake system was totally empty and had set for over a year.

The only difference I see is that instead of open/close to push the fluid through the system this would just let everything go back and forth a bunch? I will try this tomorrow and am also curious where I can pick up the Factory Repair Manual as I already have the Chilton's and Haynes guides.
Again huge Thank You too everyone for advice. And a nifty side note; while walking the beach with a friend today we found some of the rhino ramps in the bushes that had been abandoned and took those home to get the front end up heigher and for easier working on the car in general :-D

the lines are not too hard to replace, but they are hard to come by. that braided front and rear section make it difficult.
Fierostore does have have them, and probably you could get one made up at some of the other online tubing sites.
I think Rodney Dickman also has a kit with just the braided pieces, and you could just make your own hardline.

Testing the lines is not that easy, as you don't have an apparent leak, that says that the line only sux air in, but doesn;t leak anything. that infers that it seals with pressure and opens on release. that just doesn;t seem possible.
You could try this on the slave, may work:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/076049.html
but if it's a getrag slave, I don;t think that applies.

Just because it is new doesn;t mean it;s good, you could have gotten a bad cylinder.

Let me ask you this then, when you get air in, does it come out at the start of the bleed or the end of it? if the air comes out only just as you start, then that;s saying that the air is only getting drawn in at the slave end. if it continues thruout the flow, then it likely is coming from the master end. hard to imagine, but if you think about the flow, that may help.
Another thought is that your leak could be leaking fluid out the master, and if so, the only sign of it will be a wet carpet by your feet. have you checked this carefully?
Also is the reservior on the master sealed tight to the master? I think there is supposed to be an o-ring seal on the plastic bowl to the cylinder.....
More stream of unconsciousness thoughts:
to isolate the air source, you could try this:
Remove the braided line to the slave. (put a bowl under the slave to catch the stuff dripping out)
hold your finger over the end of the line lightly, have a helper press the pedal down. let the fluid sneak out past your finger, when the pedal is bottomed, press hard on the end of the line to create a tight seal and have him release the pedal slowly. top off the reserviour and do it again. that should have purged all the air out, if you can;t stop the air getting in, then you know that it is the line or the master.
you could disconnect the line at the master end and do the same finger trick there on the output of the master. if it still gets air in, you will see it bubble up in the reserviour, and then you have to look long and hard at the seals on the master.
Not the most techinical way, but ti may help to isolate.
to check the line, you would really need something to pressurize it and put a vacuum on it. neither one of which will be easy.

You can get the FRM in E-Bay once in a while or you can buy one from the Fiero Store.

Thanks to all for the advice and here's where I'm at now. Flushing is a breeze, drive car onto rhino ramps undo bleeder screw keep reservoir filled close bleeder screw and cap reservoir. 1 man job even :-D. Recently I ran across a thread in the archives suggesting that one should replace the 5spd Getrag slave with the 5spd Isuzu slave. Upon doing this I can bleed the clutch no problem and everything seemed to be good until I got back after my short test drive and discovered fluid all over the engine bay and that it was burning off. I hope I just didn't tighten everything down enough and am going to tighten things harder as soon as it cools down and I've eaten dinner but if that doesn't do it I think I'm going to cry.

I have found the best way is to hook up the slave cylinder to the hydrolic line
but do not mount the slave to the engine. The mounting studs in my 88GT are
long enough that you can mount the salve cylinder when the bar is extended out.
Now with the slave not mounted to the engine, but connected to the hydrolic
line, you can turn the slave cylinder so the bleeder valve is at the highest point.
Now bleed the system. While having someone pump the peddle or by
gravity bleed, shake, tap, shake, tap, shake, tap, shake, tap the slave
cylinder to released any air that is trapped up by the bar or in the spring that's
internal to the slave cylinder. The hydrolic line is a braided line so you can
flex it to do the shaking/tapping the cylinder while bleeding. Hope this
helps. I couldn't get my system bleed properly until I figured to try the above.


Don't know if this will work on a 4 cylinder (if the mounting studs are long
enough).

I agree with Larry on this one. I have a pressure bleeder, and it wasn't doing any good until I tilted the slave as Larry suggested.