Hey everyone. While I wont be doing this for a while, I wanted to decide on what motor to use when the time comes to swap it. Now I am not incredibly technical, though my father is. And we are very limited on space. We don't even have a garage. I have been debating the pros and cons of all the motors that have been installed in Fieros.
These are the ones that I have in my list... - 2.2/2.4L ECOtec turbo'd (Pro: good after-market, good gas mileage, easy to find, inexpensive / Con: Limited base HP) - 2.3L HO Quad4 (Pro: Good HP / Con: Small after-market, hard to find) - SC 3800 (good power, huge amount of information available) - 5.3L LS4 (Pro: Huge power / Con: hard to find, expensive, has not been swapped into a Fiero yet, not much info)
Which of these would be the best, or easiest motor to swap? If there are others I don't have listed that you would think would be better please tell me. Thanks in advance.
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08:26 AM
PFF
System Bot
Old Lar Member
Posts: 13798 From: Palm Bay, Florida Registered: Nov 1999
From what I have researched a 3800 sc II. One of the easier swaps,decent gas milage, good power, dependable and tons of engines, after market parts and info on swaps already done.
If you're thinking of LS4, just go with an LS1 unless you really need the displacement on demand stuff. The LS1 motors are easy to find, and lots of LS1 swaps have been done. Any 97-05 base Vette has it, the C5 Z06 has the LS6 which is very similar, and the 98-02 Camaro/Firebird had the LS1 available as well. The aftermarket is also huge for them. They make plenty of power stock, and it's easy to get them to make plenty more.
The 3800scII is also another good choice. Good mileage and power as well there. But I don't know as much about those engines.
I would say the best over all is the 3800SC series II. As for a Corvette LS1 it would work but the main point missed on the new 5.3 LS4 is that the FWD version is made with the proper bell housing so no adapter plate and this block is made especially for FWD and has been made shorter by one inch making it an even easier fit. Yes it is expensive but that will change with time, the other good thing about being new is very low mileage units can be found. I have been doing some research into this engine and so far I see no reason why it will not work in the Fiero. I personally plan on doing one mated to a manual transmission which should make it even better for use in the Fiero. Dan
start with how much $$$ you want to spend. the V8 has a huge $ demand just to get started. the ecotech is by far the most "sporty" in thats it light & has great power potential the SC3800 is a GREAT on the spot power choice.
I see you avoided the 3.4DOHC, any reason for this?
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11:01 AM
faytmorgan Member
Posts: 99 From: anoka, mn usa Registered: Nov 2006
he avoided the dohc 3.4 cause probabbly he read fiero addiction. assumtion.
as for the best motor- ecotec has not yet been done all the way-
but out of yoru choices - you don't have a garage so........ i would recomend none of them- you don't got the tools time or $ then stay away from the fiero. go get a rx7 from the late 80's to start with- with a 5 speed. then come back to the fiero. you will se what i am talking about.
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11:52 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by faytmorgan: but out of yoru choices - you don't have a garage so........ i would recomend none of them- you don't got the tools time or $ then stay away from the fiero. go get a rx7 from the late 80's to start with- with a 5 speed. then come back to the fiero. you will se what i am talking about.
yes, a 2nd car is a must. there is much down time with a swap.
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01:47 PM
fierodeletre Member
Posts: 834 From: Behind Animal's Drum Set. Registered: Oct 2006
Originally posted by fierodeletre: I've heard that a 3.4 swap is the easiest to do, this might be a best 'first' swap. You use the original 2.8's computer on that swap.
Any 60deg pushrod v6 swap is going to be the easiest to do, if you use the factory intake, accessories, and everything, but the block, heads, and internals. The 3.4 DOHC swap is a different beast though, and not quite as easy.
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05:15 PM
fierodeletre Member
Posts: 834 From: Behind Animal's Drum Set. Registered: Oct 2006
Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes, a 2nd car is a must. there is much down time with a swap.
Best bet for this situation is to get a second cradle and just build a whole drivetrain on it. Once it is built, most of the down time would be in the cradle swap. Then you could just sell the old parts. The drive train could just be built in a shed if you have one or room for a small one.
[This message has been edited by JumpStart (edited 12-12-2006).]
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09:45 PM
fierodeletre Member
Posts: 834 From: Behind Animal's Drum Set. Registered: Oct 2006
The EASIEST of course is the 3.4 Camaro/Firebird swap. Literally, all you need to do is drill new holes for the starter (machine shop must do this), unbolt EVERYTHING off yoru Fiero V6, and bolt it on to the Camaro 3.4. Get yourself 17lb injectors, and re-install it. Bam, instant 25hp/30ft-lbs increase. These motors are a dime a dozen.
I currently have a 3.2 in my Fiero, but I will be doing the 3.4 swap shortly. I've got enough semi-fast cars, and the 3.4 is the "ideal" swap for the person who wants to keep their car looking stock, but get a bit more power out of it.
The NEXT good swap is a 4.9 Caddy V8. This motor weighs LESS than even a 2.5 Iron Duke, and puts out almost twice the power of the V6. It's a solid aluminum engine with steel sleeves and cast iron heads. It's reliable, and MANY people have done it. Works AWESOME with the 4t60 transmission swap. You can expect 17s/18s in the city, and 28/29 on the highway for fuel economy. Your car will also handle better being that it's now a perfect 50/50 weight distribution. The other engine swap, which is kind of neat, is one that I just typed out a bunch of crap for... I'll put it in quotes:
quote
Honestly... you may want to consider going with a 2.4 LD9 "TwinCam" motor for your swap instead.
It might actually be a MUCH better solution for you. I've had quite a bit of experience with the TwinCam, and I have to say it's a really great motor. It's not much different than the Ecotec, at least if we're talking about a NON VVT one.
You can get a low mileage "LD9" TwinCam engine for VERY cheap. They are ALL over eBay. You'll want to find one from a 96-98 Pontiac Grand Am / Olds Achieva, or the Chevy Cavalier / Sunfire with the 2.4. They also had them in the last generation of GrandAms up until 2002.
The reason I mention it is because... GM offers a FACTORY PERFORMANCE KIT for the 2.4 LD9 TwinCam with the Getrag 5-Speed. It's a supercharger that bolts RIGHT up to it. It even has the air intake facing towards the Fiero's factory air inlet / side scoop.
Now, the 2.4 TwinCam is basically the "OBD-2" version of the Quad-4. There are MANY kits that were offered for the Quad-4 over the years. There don't appear to be any currently available anymore, but there are enough people with them that you can easily get information. I mention the Quad-4 because you can actually CONTROL the 2.4 TwinCam using all LATE 2.3 Quad-4 electronics. The 1993-1995 Quad-4 computer / engine harness will bolt RIGHT up to the TwinCam.
Or... you can still do what he's doing in this thread for his Ecotec. The benefit of course to going with OBD-1 is that the ECM is more or less self contained and doesn't have any requirements for all that other crap (the ABS computer, the radio, the dash cluster processor, all that other crap). So, you can basically use your STOCK Fiero gauge cluster (or a 120, or whatever) and hook it all up to the OBD-1 Quad-4 ECM.
What's even BETTER is that there is a set of upgraded camshafts that can be used on the 2.4 TwinCam. This is called the "Secret Cam Swap". It's a silly name, but basically what you do is take an intake cam from a 1993 Quad-4, and an exhaust cam from a 1995 Quad-4 (or it might be the other way around). That said, you end up with exactly 11 more peak horsepower, and a shift of power by about 200rpms. (slightly less INITIAL power off the line, but much much more pull in the mid to upper rpms).
But, in a Fiero that's much lighter than a crapalier, or an older GrandAm, you're going to be putting out some decent power.
Consider it, the stock 2.4 LD9 TwinCam has basically a totally FLAT torque curve... which almost negates any benefit really of having VVT (you wouldn't see much improvement).
The stock LD9 TwinCam puts out 155hp and 150lbs of torque in it's typical form. With the Secret Cam Swap, you'll see somewhere around 165hp and 155lbs of torque. Now, when you go with the GM supercharger, you'll be putting out around ~220hp.
It's a REALLY great swap, and what's so nice about the 2.4 TwinCam is that it's actually a fairly refined motor (compared to the Quad-4). It has a set of balancing shafts which help quiet and smooth the engines operation.
If you want more information on this motor, the swap, or about the supercharger... you can go to
Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes, a 2nd car is a must. there is much down time with a swap.
Sorry, I should have said this in the beginning...the Fiero IS my second car. My daily driver is a 99 Grand Am. The Fiero hasn't moved since the day I bought it in September.
So being out of service for a while is not an issue.
As far as money is concerned, I'd like to keep the price down. I know swaps cost a lot, so I would like to keep it under 3-4K.
quote
Originally posted by fierodeletre:
Anyone know what the hp and tq ratings are for the 3400 roller cam engine that GM is still putting in their front drive cars?
If that is the same V6 that is in my Grand Am, it is rated at 170 HP / 200 lb/ft
[This message has been edited by Shad0wguy (edited 12-13-2006).]
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07:59 AM
Shad0wguy Member
Posts: 867 From: Long Island, NY Registered: Aug 2006
3-4 thousand will get you a decent 3800SC installed and running. MY labour for the entire swap is $2,000 CDN and I know of a good 2000GTP engine for $1,000 CDN all that is left is to get a tranny and a few other small things and you are one the road with a nice 3800SC powered Fiero. If you want to do it your self then get an engine and tranny then buy a set of mounts and a completed harness then just put it all together. Do like some do rent a large storage locker and build it there. Only commom tools are needed and you could rent an engine puller for a weekend to do the work. Dan
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: There are a few really feasible swaps.
The EASIEST of course is the 3.4 Camaro/Firebird swap. Literally, all you need to do is drill new holes for the starter (machine shop must do this), unbolt EVERYTHING off yoru Fiero V6, and bolt it on to the Camaro 3.4. Get yourself 17lb injectors, and re-install it. Bam, instant 25hp/30ft-lbs increase. These motors are a dime a dozen.
I currently have a 3.2 in my Fiero, but I will be doing the 3.4 swap shortly. I've got enough semi-fast cars, and the 3.4 is the "ideal" swap for the person who wants to keep their car looking stock, but get a bit more power out of it.
The NEXT good swap is a 4.9 Caddy V8. This motor weighs LESS than even a 2.5 Iron Duke, and puts out almost twice the power of the V6. It's a solid aluminum engine with steel sleeves and cast iron heads. It's reliable, and MANY people have done it. Works AWESOME with the 4t60 transmission swap. You can expect 17s/18s in the city, and 28/29 on the highway for fuel economy. Your car will also handle better being that it's now a perfect 50/50 weight distribution. The other engine swap, which is kind of neat, is one that I just typed out a bunch of crap for... I'll put it in quotes:
3.1 & 3.4 are hardly swaps - just a bore & stroke. yes, technicaly, it is a different block "swapped" for the original block - but - its basicly the same motor. but - thats what makes them easy too. I'll agree 100% they are the easiest way to juice up the original 2.8
the 4.9 - yes, another fairly easy swap option. gets you a V8. but, from the motors listed - he is looking for a motor with future upgrades in mind. the 4.9 is basicly a dead end swap. 200 hp & low redline. but - it is a good jump from a 2.8. it is lighter - it is stronger. and, if you get the tranny with the motor - you get the MPG's too.
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09:34 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24986 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by Pyrthian: the 4.9 - yes, another fairly easy swap option. gets you a V8. but, from the motors listed - he is looking for a motor with future upgrades in mind. the 4.9 is basicly a dead end swap. 200 hp & low redline. but - it is a good jump from a 2.8. it is lighter - it is stronger. and, if you get the tranny with the motor - you get the MPG's too.
Not true about the 4.9 being dead.
There is actually a company that has about 200 some odd Cadillac Allantes in stock. That's ALL they focus on. They offer the entire intake system and throttle body for around $400 bucks. There is also a company specifically dedicated to porting and polishing JUST the 4.9 cyl heads, and there is another company that offers a higher rpm cam.
I have a friend with a 4.9 in a Citation X-11. He hasn't swapped it in yet, but he just sent out his heads for work. The goal is 6,300 rpms (which the bottom end can easily handle), and the new cam supports power through that RPM range.
It's CERTAINLY a viable swap.
Oh yeah, sorry about screwing up this thread with my quote!!! hahah...
Whatever you do, get away from the stock auto. The 4T65E-HD tranny is a great choice, and will sling you off the line like a stick would.
As far as engines, stay away from the 4 cyls, theres no point. In your price range and experience I see only 2 real options.
3.4DOHC Easy swap, little more work than a 2.8L - 3.4L, 205-215HP high reving, great "fiero" engine. You would have more work in putting in a diffrent tranny, other than that its basicaly just wiring and pluming.
3.8SC. A little more complicated, engines cost more, a little more expensive. You will need to make mounts, will need to make axels for the auto tranny, there are a lot more wires to work with, and you will have to relocate the alternator. Other than that its about as much work as the 2.8-3.4, just pluming and tweaking.
They're both good options, but the 3.8SC will kick you in the butt more and is much more reliable. I have done, and like, both of them. Little aftermarket for the 3.4 DOHC limits its horsepower to near stock unless you boost it. The 3.8SC can easily be made to make more power than you could know what to do with.
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01:59 PM
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
rodney dickman sells a jig to relocate the starter holes on the 3.4 camaro /firebird motor .you dont need a machine shop. its true that there are places that do work and offer hi po stuff ror the 4.9 caddy motor.but it is all low volume ,expensive stuff.i was very serious about the 4.9 until i started looking for one.for whatever reason ,the wreckers in my area did not have very many of them and they wanted big bucks for high mileage motors.they seem to be more plentiful stateside . for me an engine swap is more a matter of personal preferance than what is actually the best motor to put in.not that many people seem to want to put an ecotec in their cars ,but i wanted to do something new and different and i am really pleased with the results.but the most important thing is that i am having fun working and driving my car again ,and i now have a huge potential for improvement .my car was the second running eco fiero and the first home built running eco fiero.i missed having the first by two weeks.from the time i got my parts to getting the car running took 6 weeks .
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02:20 PM
Shad0wguy Member
Posts: 867 From: Long Island, NY Registered: Aug 2006
Yes the 45T65E HD is the tranny that comes with the 3800SC, the tranny is the same as the 4T65E except for a heavier differential one axle shaft and the final drive ratio. Dan
Ditto on the 4t65eHD trans, I even managed to go threw on of those.... What happened to this page? Looks like I picked a bad week to quit sniffing glue...
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02:01 AM
Shad0wguy Member
Posts: 867 From: Long Island, NY Registered: Aug 2006
Originally posted by Shad0wguy: So with all this info, it looks like I have narrowed my choices down to either a SC'd 2.4L, or the SC'd 3800.I am probably going to do this swap next winter, so the final decision will be whatever I can find for the best deal.
Theres a ton of 3800SC out there now--even more of both of what your looking for after the snowy winter wrecks start coming in...
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08:14 AM
PFF
System Bot
Shad0wguy Member
Posts: 867 From: Long Island, NY Registered: Aug 2006
Yeah, if I can find a good deal now, I'll buy it. But there isn't a hurry.
I think I may be leaning more towards the 2.4L. Only because it hasn't been done thousands of times before. It may not have as much power, but who would expect a 4 cyl to be able to keep up with mustang GT's and the like.
Plus, I can keep my 2M4 badges. And I can have F-I-E-R-O make a Fiero emblem that says 2M4 Supercharged!
[This message has been edited by Shad0wguy (edited 12-14-2006).]
It would be one that hasn`t been done to death--and the race is over at 90mph or the next light anyway. Do a build thread/post if you can, I`m looking for something different my-self.
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08:50 AM
faytmorgan Member
Posts: 99 From: anoka, mn usa Registered: Nov 2006
i like th 3.8 carbed with the old first gen- build it up go talk to the gn guys- i like carb not fuel injected the difference is only a few mpg personally it takes all the wiring hassel away if you are nto that great at it- like me.
then i like th 4.9 great potential weird oil filter location though. right on top cool looking motor though to me.
and then other than the eco tec - the sbc. i would not consider any other swap out there. these are the only ones i think are worth it. i have worked on IMPORTS not american cars for a while and it seems in comparison to the import world the american cars are lot easier to work with to make great power. and i have been doing nothing but reading on the american cars for the past 5 months or so in relation to my fiero being dead as a doornail.
The 3500 at stock specs is 200 hp and 220 lb/ft, there are a couple of aftermarket cams available for it or you can regrind the original. An external crank trigger system is available to allow use of OBD I or II computers. The engines can be found with low miles for as little as $450. It is lighter than the 3.8L and if it helps any almost as powerful as the 06 3.8 naturally aspirated in the Monte Carlo rated at 200 hp and 225 lb/ft. So you would have to go with a 3800 SC from a pro and con standpoint on a comparison basis for a 3.8L to be practical in that sense. The 3500 will also bolt right in and right up to the stock flywheel as long as it's neutrally balanced. It's an FWD engine so no need for starter relocation.
CNCguy on the 660 forum is working on an VVT eliminator adaptor for the 3900 V6 rated at 242 hp 250 lb/ft naturally aspirated compared to the 06 Monte 3800 SC 240 hp and 280 lb/ft and the 3900 growing more and more abundant can be had for as little as $800 with low miles, it's pretty close power wise considering it's naturally aspirated.
GM is doing a really good job with the 60 degree engines and that's why I opt for them because very little by the way of a custom install is required in most cases. The aluminum heads alone are a 30 lb weight saving over the 2.8.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-14-2006).]
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09:41 AM
faytmorgan Member
Posts: 99 From: anoka, mn usa Registered: Nov 2006
