Well, it's been years since I've owned a Fiero, so I'm not sure. I've been driving 3000GT's for the last 4-5 years. Aren't there fixes/upgrades for the Fiero suspension?
Bump steer usually only occurs if the steering rack shock is shot. If it is something else, you have a sick suspension which needs a good mechanic. Personally, I removed the steering rack shock and the car handles great. Of course I have added a rear sway bar, using the front sway bar from an '84.
I replaced the shocks and struts with Munroe Sensa-tracs. That was a good move.
That car looks familiar! I was a bidder as well. I told myself that I'd only go $16,500 and that's it. I thought I had a shot for awhile until someone (you...) used buy-it-now.
Congrats on a nice project. I agree with you and some of the others. The 250HP range of the original engine is pretty amemic by today's standards. I was considering a Northstar or LS-1 swap but I was only willing to pay so much for the car. I also agree with some of the other posts about the maintainence on the real 308 / 328's. It's a lot of money for not so much horsepower.
I'd love to see how the owner installed the Fiero Cradle into the car. The seller did'nt have that much info and I'm in PA so I could'nt stop out and see it. Good luck with the project.
I just looked at a 85 308 GTB "roller" for $11K which I was really excited about but the owner originally started parting it and all the glass is gone as well as some other items. By the time I buy that stuff, I don't think it would be cost effective for me.
PS. Don't let them F-Chat and other Ferrari forum members give you grief. They can be a weird bunch. When they hear that someone is trying to do an engine swap into a Ferrari, it's like you are clubbing baby seals for goodness sake. They need to loosen up a bit. I told them that if I find a suitable donor, I'd be glad to put my "Bastard 308" up against thier stock engine cars any day of the week.!
Well, it's been years since I've owned a Fiero, so I'm not sure. I've been driving 3000GT's for the last 4-5 years. Aren't there fixes/upgrades for the Fiero suspension?
yes, held motorsports and RCC make suspension upgrades for the fiero components, I heard held's fix is a awesome fix, but how it applies to your suspensio i dont know. You should get some pictures fo the rear suspension up to compare.
Originally posted by Arns85GT: Bump steer usually only occurs if the steering rack shock is shot. If it is something else, you have a sick suspension which needs a good mechanic. Personally, I removed the steering rack shock and the car handles great. Of course I have added a rear sway bar, using the front sway bar from an '84.
I replaced the shocks and struts with Munroe Sensa-tracs. That was a good move.
Arn
You have no idea what bumpstear is. Bumpsteer is when the wheels turn (steer) as the suspension goes through it's travel (up & down). It happens when the tie rods are not the same length as the control arms, or are on a different plane. On early Fiero rear suspension, it happens 'cause the *fixed* rear tie rods are different lengths (from the control arms), *and* on a different plane. What rear suspension does it have? Early or '88? If it's early, the first thing I'd do is swap in an '88 cradle. Then go to coilovers, & - since it orriginally had a V8 - a SBC. Depending on how much $$$ the owner has/wants to spend, aluminum heads & quad 2bbl. webbers. But that's just me: I think the Ferrari should have around 400HP & handle like it's on rails.... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 11-19-2006).]
3084me: A few others in this post have asked for detailed pics. I will try to post some later today in hopes of getting good advice on what kind of engine upgrades I might consider. The guy who did this runs the Car Factory in Florida. His name is Mike, and his website can be found at: www.kitcar.cc
Interesting side note - I saw this car in the Auto Trader several years ago. Tried to buy it then, but someone beat me to it. The seller got me in touch with Mike and I talked to him numerous times about doing one for me. He suggested doing the 3800sc and said he could do it turnkey for under $9k. Mike is known for doing good work. I spent several years looking around for a 308 with a blown engine, engine fire, or some other potential donor, but never found the right car. I kind of figured the original Auto Trader car would show up on Ebay sooner or later, and I was in a habit of looking for it. I guess that paid off.
Tha Driver: I don't know if the engine cradle is an early or later Fiero, and I doubt that Mike would remember since the car was done at least 4 or 5 years ago. But unless I find another project that attracts me more than this, I'll likely keep this and get it just the way I want it over time.
And on that note, there IS one car that interests me more than this one. It was built for a movie. I could have bought it at one time for $35,000, but it's basically just a shell and probably woudl have cost me a hundred grand or more to make it driveable. I've been trying to figure out if I could fabricate a look-a-like on a stripped down NSX platform Have a look at this baby: http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/skewz-me/mr10small.jpg
[This message has been edited by TEW (edited 11-19-2006).]
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07:01 AM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
3084me: A few others in this post have asked for detailed pics. I will try to post some later today in hopes of getting good advice on what kind of engine upgrades I might consider. The guy who did this runs the Car Factory in Florida. His name is Mike, and his website can be found at: www.kitcar.cc
Interesting side note - I saw this car in the Auto Trader several years ago. Tried to buy it then, but someone beat me to it. The seller got me in touch with Mike and I talked to him numerous times about doing one for me. He suggested doing the 3800sc and said he could do it turnkey for under $9k. Mike is known for doing good work. I spent several years looking around for a 308 with a blown engine, engine fire, or some other potential donor, but never found the right car. I kind of figured the original Auto Trader car would show up on Ebay sooner or later, and I was in a habit of looking for it. I guess that paid off.
Tha Driver: I don't know if the engine cradle is an early or later Fiero, and I doubt that Mike would remember since the car was done at least 4 or 5 years ago. But unless I find another project that attracts me more than this, I'll likely keep this and get it just the way I want it over time.
And on that note, there IS one car that interests me more than this one. It was built for a movie. I could have bought it at one time for $35,000, but it's basically just a shell and probably woudl have cost me a hundred grand or more to make it driveable. Have a look at this baby: http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/skewz-me/mr10small.jpg
I've been trying to figure out if I could fabricate a look-a-like on a stripped down NSX platform
Why not try something a little harder to replicate? That thing would either cost you $$$$$$$$$$$ or years to do yourself, probaly both. It is dif that's for sure.
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10:02 AM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
3084me: A few others in this post have asked for detailed pics. I will try to post some later today in hopes of getting good advice on what kind of engine upgrades I might consider. The guy who did this runs the Car Factory in Florida. His name is Mike, and his website can be found at: www.kitcar.cc
Interesting side note - I saw this car in the Auto Trader several years ago. Tried to buy it then, but someone beat me to it. The seller got me in touch with Mike and I talked to him numerous times about doing one for me. He suggested doing the 3800sc and said he could do it turnkey for under $9k. Mike is known for doing good work. I spent several years looking around for a 308 with a blown engine, engine fire, or some other potential donor, but never found the right car. I kind of figured the original Auto Trader car would show up on Ebay sooner or later, and I was in a habit of looking for it. I guess that paid off.
Tha Driver: I don't know if the engine cradle is an early or later Fiero, and I doubt that Mike would remember since the car was done at least 4 or 5 years ago. But unless I find another project that attracts me more than this, I'll likely keep this and get it just the way I want it over time.
And on that note, there IS one car that interests me more than this one. It was built for a movie. I could have bought it at one time for $35,000, but it's basically just a shell and probably woudl have cost me a hundred grand or more to make it driveable. I've been trying to figure out if I could fabricate a look-a-like on a stripped down NSX platform Have a look at this baby: http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/skewz-me/mr10small.jpg
Why not try something a little harder to replicate? Cost you $$$$$$$$$ to have or likely take you a few years and $$$$$ to complete.
Yeah, you have an early cradle. I can't believe someone would put that in a Ferrari. I would seariously consider changing it out for an '88 when you do the engine swap. It will handle SO much better. You'll need the cradle, control arms, trailing arms (struts), hubs & brakes, & as I said before I'd do a coilover conversion. The coilovers will give you adjustability for height & a cheap way to change the stiffness (by swapping out the springs). ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Guy: "You look familiar - have we met before?" Girl: "Jerk! I had you arrested for exposing yourself!" Guy: "Well...you'll have to be more specific..."
BTW the movie car: you don't build something like that on an NSX or Fiero platform. You build a custom tube frame made to fit the drivetrain you want in it. How much money do you have? ;^p ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Hey Leroy, what'cha doin' dragging that chain across the floor? Leroy: "Ever tried *pushing* a chain?"
You should have enough engine compartment back there to fit a LS6 or LS7 and give that car a Ferrari soul that will put all 3800sc engines to shame. If I remember the last Ferrari 308 I saw the engine compartment is huge compared to what we have in the Fiero. A $25-30K really old used car would benefit big time from a major power upgrade. The right V8 in there would fit really easy and clean the clock of any 3800sc engine you can find.
An archie V8 kit on a GM 350 in there would be way easier, plus allow you to make it look ferrari way easier and cheaper as there are tons of machine shops with millable aluminum valve cover blanks ready to go.
IF you were talking about a el-cheapo fiero, Go with a cheap engine install. But you are talking about a car that if the engine was 100% dead would still command 18-20K on the used market.... A V8 swap done right would really be sharp in that car.
I like the idea of doing the sbc, but it's out of my skill sets. Any ideas on what this would cost me to get it done, including the necessary suspension upgrades ? And what about the tranny? I imagine that sbc could rip it apart.
Does Archie do installs or only sell the kits?
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10:42 PM
Nov 20th, 2006
scooz14 Member
Posts: 86 From: W. Bloomfield, MI, USA Registered: May 2006
I like the idea of doing the sbc, but it's out of my skill sets. Any ideas on what this would cost me to get it done, including the necessary suspension upgrades ? And what about the tranny? I imagine that sbc could rip it apart.
Does Archie do installs or only sell the kits?
Yes, Archie does the whole job. His prices are fair, but outside my pocketbook's ability.
Dont put an original Ferrari drivetrain in if you want to enjoy the car. Someone obviously thought the same thing when they dropped in a budget US engine. I did my Ferrari kit with GM drivetrain specificly for that reason. I wanted something that look great and I could drive the hell out of it without worrying about a breakdown everytime I went out of town. Id go with a nice 3800 supercharged, or even a Buick V6 turbo 3.8. Both have lots more power than the Ferrari engine did. Just for starters if you went original, try $25K for a longblock, another $20K for transaxle then prob another $10K for the other stuff like carbs and electroics. Then you would have an older Ferrari you could buy off a lot for $25K to start with. Good luck and enjoy.
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03:11 PM
Nov 22nd, 2006
3084me Member
Posts: 1035 From: Bucks County, PA Registered: Apr 2005
I've owned 3 Grand Nationals in the past and your 308 certainly has the room for a 86-87 3.8 SFI Turbo and the intercooler as well. I don't know about recently but even though quite a few have tried, not many have been able to get a manual trans (in the G-body that is) to hold up to theSFI Turbo 3.8. Although in your 308, you certainly may have options for a Porsche , Audi etc trans that was not an option for us .
Last. Just my opinion. I'm don't know that I would "waste" my time with an 88 cradle either. Just because an 88 Fiero suspension is better than the 84-87 does not mean that you'll even feel a bit of difference in a Ferrari. The Fiero was designed together with the spaceframe and the cradle. The Ferrari was not designed with the 88 (or any other) cradle in mind.... If the feel is ok now, I'm sure you will be fine. I've done just a little bit of frame work in the past and I would feel that a custom "back - half" / custom tube rear section and suspension can be fabricated by any competent frame shop / race car shop. That way you could design it for various transmission options. How about the trans from a Pantera? I beleive they use the ZF. That will more than happily handle the power.
You have lots of options. I think the most cost effective (not sure if you are paying someone to do it though) is a nicely built SBC, leave your current cradle and Getrag. Not exactly what my plans would have been for the car but that would be a nice ride.
I'm like you. I check ebay all the time for fire damage (easy to find) and other damaged 308's. I'll find one to my liking sonoer or later. In the meantime, I'm having fun with the 308 replica.
Keep us posted.
[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 11-22-2006).]
I've owned 3 Grand Nationals in the past and your 308 certainly has the room for a 86-87 3.8 SFI Turbo and the intercooler as well. I don't know about recently but even though quite a few have tried, not many have been able to get a manual trans (in the G-body that is) to hold up to theSFI Turbo 3.8. Although in your 308, you certainly may have options for a Porsche , Audi etc trans that was not an option for us .
Last. Just my opinion. I'm don't know that I would "waste" my time with an 88 cradle either. Just because an 88 Fiero suspension is better than the 84-87 does not mean that you'll even feel a bit of difference in a Ferrari. The Fiero was designed together with the spaceframe and the cradle. The Ferrari was not designed with the 88 (or any other) cradle in mind.... If the feel is ok now, I'm sure you will be fine. I've done just a little bit of frame work in the past and I would feel that a custom "back - half" / custom tube rear section and suspension can be fabricated by any competent frame shop / race car shop. That way you could design it for various transmission options. How about the trans from a Pantera? I beleive they use the ZF. That will more than happily handle the power.
You have lots of options. I think the most cost effective (not sure if you are paying someone to do it though) is a nicely built SBC, leave your current cradle and Getrag. Not exactly what my plans would have been for the car but that would be a nice ride.
I'm like you. I check ebay all the time for fire damage (easy to find) and other damaged 308's. I'll find one to my liking sonoer or later. In the meantime, I'm having fun with the 308 replica.
Keep us posted.
he is just as limited as we are, his setup is a transverse just like ours, with the 308's intentional short wheelbase, shorter than ours, i doubt he'll fit a longitunal set-up in wiht out a chassis stretch.
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09:13 PM
3084me Member
Posts: 1035 From: Bucks County, PA Registered: Apr 2005
I was "talking transverse not longitudinal. I still think SBC / Getrag would be the way to go or 3800 SC depending on preference. He has an advantage in the fact that he has more engine compartment than we do. (Although it would be great to get something in there longitudinal.
On the wheelbase, are you referring to width?? The 308 / 328 wheelbase is almost identical to the Fiero. The 308/328 has a 92 inch wheelbase ( although it does have a tube frame and has a 4-wheel double wishbone independent suspension). The fiero wheelbase is 93.5 or so .
He has a nice project either way. I can't wait to see where it goes.
[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 11-22-2006).]
I apppreciate all the input. It's really helpful for someone less knowledable like me. I spoke to someone about doing a sbc install. It would likely come in at around $12,000 turnkey. I have the resources to do it, but I already have about $24,000 in the car and I'm just not sure if I want to have $36 to $40 grand in this project. I am wrestling with the idea of possibly selling it and spending the $40 grand on a used 348 or Lotus Elise. To tell you the truth, I'm not really disappointed with the performance I'm getting from the carb'd 2.8 that's already in there, but all this talk about sbc's and supercharged 3800's get's me worked up. I suppose I could squeeze a little more out of it as-is with some additional performance upgrades. Keep the feedback coming. Thanks
[This message has been edited by TEW (edited 11-22-2006).]
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11:10 PM
Nov 23rd, 2006
3084me Member
Posts: 1035 From: Bucks County, PA Registered: Apr 2005
When I was looking at the auction (and some of the other 308 auctions that come up from time to time), I ultimately had to decide what "my bottom dollar was". The way I looked at it, looking at the values of the "average" 308, (and the fact that I could do the engine swap and fabrication - coupled also with the fact that my friend owns a body shop - which is a HUGE HELP when it comes to Frame work / Fabrication and custom "stuff"), I wanted to make sure that by the time I was done the swap, I was'nt "into the car" for $25K or above.
I wanted to make sure that when I eventually sold it that I would'nt loose money (or at least not that much money when I did sell it).
Mabye we have a little more optimism in your skills but the average "backyard" mechanic (with a little help if needed) could tackle an SBC swap. One other option that may be a bit cheaper for you would be do do something like a Caddy 4.9.
Although the 4.9 is only 200HP, it's got a nice amount of torque that "comes in" very early and they have a great feel . . . and of course that V8 sound. You've certainly got the engine bay room and the nice thing is: . . . It bolts to the FWD transmissions with the bolt pattern that you currently have now. No engine adapters (just some custom - in your case - engine mounts which Fieroaddiction can supply you since you are using a Fiero Cradle. The engines are cheap and you can usually pick up a 91-95 Deville or Eldorado etc with body damage for less than a grand. Any mechanic can "bolt it in there for you" and it may be cheaper than the SBC swap. (Plus - I bet you could tackle it yourself.
At first you could just modify a GM HEI and use a carb adapter with a Holley (500cfm) on the original intake - check the forum search for the tons of info on the 4.9 swaps. You could always get it running this way and then later (if you desired) convert back to the PFI Fuel Injection as a Winter project.
I'm 38 so I would have no problem with a carbed 4.9 but with Rockcrawls and other members Harness's, ECM / Chip work etc, having a Fuel Injected 4.9 is "so do-able" and it would look fantastic in that engine bay.
Just another option for you. You could always see if someone in your area has a 4.9 fiero for you to take a spin in just to kind of give you an idea. I think you'll be really suprised with the way the torque will move that car. Much better than the 140HP v6. Not quite as much as the 255HP original powerplant (give or take) but very easy to service that's for sure.
If you had originally picked up that car for a little less money and even remotely considered selling it, I would be VERY Tempted. I helped a friend with a supercharger install on his 95 Viper last year and really got the bug for the Dodge. The thing is a monster. I recently sold my last Grand National and 69 442. I have a 1979 467cid Trans Am that will be going next year at some point. I told the wife that I'm finally "thinning the heard" and cutting down the projects. I just want to "get in an go for a ride" when I get a free day.
I"m keeping my Jaguar XJS V-12 and my 1983 Hurst Olds. I want the the Jag (a driver but in fantastic shape) and the Olds (30K original miles) as the "Garage Queens" and 1 other car (something exotic) that I can get in and go for a ride. Once the 308 replica (also in really great shape) is ready for it's next owner and the T/A is gone, I'll have the cash to pull the trigger on more of a Dream car. (probably more info than you need to know about me).
I think you have that already in your 308. The body is a classic and I know that I could be more than happy with a 400+ HP SBC 308. I'd love to see that car in person. Again.... Keep us posted.
[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 11-23-2006).]
I'd love to see that car in person. Again.... Keep us posted.
If you are ever in Richmond look me up. I would be happy to have you over. Actually, I did find a local guy who said he would take the sbc project on. He's a manager at a local Autozone store and builds racecars. Friends tell me he's good, and I believe I could get it done by him for a lot less. Another car I always wanted is an MR2 based 360 kit. They are hard to find, but I recently found one I can get for about $12k. When I saw that, I considered putting the 308 on Ebay, setting the reserve for about what I paid for it and see what it would fetch.
[This message has been edited by TEW (edited 11-23-2006).]
The thing about the 4.9 that has always bothered me is why did they put iron heads on an alumunum block? The weight is now at the top of the engine and everybody else puts aluminum heads on iron blocks instead. I'm building a 355 with a Northstar and feel that is the closest an american engine comes to a Ferrari. Guys I've talked to say $12000 to $1500 for an installed engine. The Design one installation kit is $5000. I bought my 86 GT from a Cadillac mechanic for $5000 with a 10,000 mile Northstar and 7,000 miles added after the install. Everybody says that the 3.4 DOHC goes right in and sounds the most like a Ferrari. It's iron block and aluminum heads but because of the extra cams etc. it's heavier than a 2.8 and again the weight gain is at the top of the car.
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10:20 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I think that putting the Fiero suspension in the car is MUCH worse than putting the GM engine into it. The Fiero suspension really is attrocious and has a LOT of glaring faults. The 2.8 is simply a mediocre engine.
Is it within the realm of you mechanical skills to jack the back of the car up, remove a rear wheel and take a photo of the entire rear suspension?
Some neanderthals have suggested the knuckle dragging simplicity of small Chevies and 3800's, but I don't think that either of those options would suit the car well. In my opinion, the car needs a smooth engine that can rev high. The 3800, being a 90 degree V6 with a balance shaft falls short on the smoothness requirement, and while Chevies are smooth and can be built to rev as high as you'd like, building one to go much past 6500 requires a fairly large investment in the valvetrain and engine build on the whole, in order to be reliable in the long term.
EFI, wiring and timing belts are not the monsters from the black lagoon that some people portray them to be. We are in the EFI boom years. There are currently more items more readily available to make an EFI conversion easier and more economical than at ANY previous time in history.
A 3.4 DOHC swap is VERY easy since your car already has a 2.8. You can buy a plug/play wiring harness for that swap that should be adaptible to the Ferrari chassis. Contact Ryan at Sinister Performance ( http://www.gmtuners.com/ ) about this and other similar swaps using FWD GM engines.
An easy swap in the V6 family would be a 3400 (185 HP) or 2004/5 3500 (200 HP). These are aluminum head engines that would be lighter than your current iron head 2.8. They redline around 6000 RPM, so they don't rev all that high, but the swaps would be very easy.
Something else to think about would be to keep your current engine, convert back to fuel injection and install one of the turbo kits currently on the market.
The 4.9 swap has been suggested, and if you decide to go that route, contact Ed Parks at http://www.thefierofactory.com/ He does turnkey 4.9 swaps using a custom-from-scratch wiring harness that's first rate.
My personal favorite is the Northstar. I did the swap with a 5 speed and drove the car daily for 2 years. It was a blast. The Northstar is a masterpiece of engine design. It is a Cadillac, through and through. It revs freely, pulls from ANY rpm, NEVER feels labored; it is truly high class. AND it doesn't even have a timing belt. The timing chain will last for 200K miles.
I make plug/play Northstar wiring harnesses for Fiero chassis. I wouldn't want to do that for your project, because the wiring wouldn't be a PERFECT fit in the Ferrari, and any Ferrari deserves perfection in custom work.
I'm back and forth among Shenandoah, VA, Philadelphia and Norfolk, so with proper scheduling I can come by your place to do the wiring for you when you get a swap done. I can assist in other ways as well, although I can't do a turn-key swap as I don't currently have the facilities to do that. Email me if you're interested.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-23-2006).]
It sounds to me that you like your Ferrari/Fiero. Having 200+ hp is not the be all. You have to enjoy the whole package to drive.
Your current engine isn't too far off being a fun ride once you get it dialled in. Sure it isn't the fastest or quickest car on the forum, but, it is, I suspect fun, and gets good gas mileage. A set of Trueleo's headers, and a good carb tuning and it will be a nice sports car.
Just my .02, but, I have low expectations.
Arn
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12:21 PM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
A guy on the kitcar forum bought a super lowmileage Mera with a Northstar engine in it and raves about it. Of course it is mechanically all Fiero except for the Northstar. It had the 4t80e trans which is 200 lbs(?) heavier. The 5 speed would be quicker. I'm going with the 4t65e hd because I want to be able to floor it at will and not worry about breaking anything.
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01:33 PM
PFF
System Bot
3084me Member
Posts: 1035 From: Bucks County, PA Registered: Apr 2005
I have to say that I always get a real kick out of descriptions like the one above that always seem to start with "some neanderthals" etc and than reference the SBC as some Dinosaur.
Agreed that the SBC is "older technology".
Agreed that the Northstar and the 3800 SC are more current and hi-tech.
Agreed that the above are excellent choices, Well designed and very potent engines.
However...
The comment about "smoothness" and a 6500 rpm SBC is just ridiculous. Granted that everyone will always have a faster motor and that sheer horsepower and 1/4 mile times is only a small part of the story when building a project, but the bottom line is:
If anyone thinks that the 300HP Northstar In a car of similar weight and style can even come close to the performance of a well built (mine or anyone elses) 430+ HP "old Knuckle Dragging Neanderthal built" SBC is very narrow minded.
The plain truth is that to build a 300-350HP SBC comparable to the HP of a stock Northstar, you will spend less money, you will have a smooth reliable engine with lower maintainence costs. You will have a host of aftermarket support for performance items, modifications, superchargers and that's just scratching the surface.
I'm sure I'll have a Northstar project in the works at some point and don't get me wrong, I agree that the is no comparison in the technology. Granted that they are great engines but if it comes right down to "who has the fastest car". The knuckle draggers will always build a SBC or BBC to do the job and the Northstar will not be in the running (until there is more aftermarket performance / support). The plain truth is: If the Northstar was a SBC Killer, you would see the Caddys stomping all over the new Corvettes (and their knuckle dragging owners). The latest generation SBC, The Corvette / GTO 6 Liter 6 Bolt Main Block powerplant will continue to run circles around the Northstar for some time to come. The Northstar is what it is: A Great Engine designed to power a HUMONGOUS Automobile with an AUTOMATIC transmission.
No disrespect intented. Everyone has their favorites but on an equal budget and with equal cars, I'll build a Cheaper Fuel Injected, SBC to outrun most any Northstar. To refer to the SBC owners as Neanderthals is out of line.
Just my .02
[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 11-23-2006).]
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10:27 PM
Nov 24th, 2006
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by 3084me: The comment about "smoothness" and a 6500 rpm SBC is just ridiculous. Granted that everyone will always have a faster motor and that sheer horsepower and 1/4 mile times is only a small part of the story when building a project, but the bottom line is:
What I said about the Chevy is that it's smooth but will take considerable valvetrain work to spin past 6500 RPM. What's ridiculous about that?
quote
If anyone thinks that the 300HP Northstar In a car of similar weight and style can even come close to the performance of a well built (mine or anyone elses) 430+ HP "old Knuckle Dragging Neanderthal built" SBC is very narrow minded.
Power is power. 430 > 300. There's no argument there. Your position is that the Chevy is the bang for the buck winner, but it isn't... at least not in a Fiero because you have the cost of the kit and the difficulties associated with the Fiero chassis to consider. Also, if you think you can build a 430 HP Chevy, *in a Fiero* for less than the cost of a Northstar swap, you're just flat wrong.
Archie a while back did a $4K Chevy swap. This used a 270 HP CRATE ENGINE. To get 350HP, you're looking at ZZ4 plus a bit... How much does that cost? Remember that the plug in and go Northstar cradle from Design 1 is $5K, and it's brutally expensive as Northstar swaps go.
My choice of words reflects the attitude of those devotees of the small block Chevy who can't stop for a few seconds to THINK about anything else to do with a car besides put a Chevy in it. Those are also frequently the guys who are afraid of fuel injection and think that all wiring is a nightmare.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-24-2006).]
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12:48 AM
3084me Member
Posts: 1035 From: Bucks County, PA Registered: Apr 2005
Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to start a raging debate. (I guess because I'm not a "die hard SBC guy or Devotee which is a good way that you mentioned it). I guess that's why I suggested a 4.9 for him to consider as well. I really feel that the torque of the 4.9 would more than compensates for the 200HP and would give the car a great feel. I'm not all about HP and 1/4 mile drag cars. I think a nice car like his with a decent amount of HP that you can get in and just take a nice long reliable drive in will go a long way.
I do however still disagree that (just a bit) with your 6500 / valvetrain $$$$ claim. I guess mainly because RPM is of no "real significant value to me" in an application like a Fiero. I don't think those shooting for an all out "drag car of a Fiero" really care if 6500 is their max rpm. If I can make a significant combination of torque and HP for a given application (in this case a 2700lb car), and do it under a 6500 rpm redline, I really don't have that much of an issue that my car doesn't rev to 8500RPM. Why would I?
My big block cars certainly don't rev that high. I've got a .060 over 454 on the stand right now which tops out at about 5500 or so. We dyno'd it when we first built it at 466HP. Plenty of power for the 78 Z28 it was in that's for sure and at no time did I ever "long for some more rpm".
I certainly can comparably and cost effectively modify the valvetrain on an SBC while the Northstar owner is having custom wiring harness / ECM's etc made up for his application. I also do agree with you about the "carb only attitude". That is a little outdated. Even though the swap I'm doing now will most likely be carb to begin with, not doing fuel injection with all of the options available is a bit silly. However, I do understand people who are comfortable and prefer a carbed setup. They certainly run well. I'm sure I'm going to be plenty happy with my 330-360 HP carbed SBC in this 2nd Fiero V8.
Like I mentioned above, I do agree that the Northstar is light years ahead in design of an old SBC. Same for the 3800SC. I'm sure I'll have one on the stand at some point and I'm sure I'll be thrilled when I finally do. I do still also feel that the latest generation SBC's certainly more than give the Northstar plenty of competition.
Last. As far as the comment on the 270HP crate engine and the ZZ4. Why on earth would I buy one of those? While a great (semi cost effective) setup for someone who does not or can not have the time, shop or experience to build their own engine, I can easily put together a 400+ HP SBC for less than the cost of a ZZ4 ! We'll have to just agree to disagree on that one! Have a great holiday...
[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 11-24-2006).]
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01:24 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
You can build one for your own use cheap, but how much would you sell it for? And if you built one cheap, how long would it last in that buyer's car?
A Chevy is a great engine for a number of things... Camaros, Corvettes, Datsun Z's, RX7's and any number of front engine/RWD cars that can handle the weight and size of the engine. There are also a number of cars for which a Chevy is NOT a good choice: Various Triumphs, MG's, other lightweight British cars and any car that can't take the weight or torque and has a fragile driveline.
If I were compelled to put a Chevy in a Fiero, a 7500 RPM 302 would be my engine of choice. With a good set of heads, it'll make as much power as the aforementioned 454, but have less chance of breaking the transmission because it will put out 150 ftlbs less torque.
Also, it's very difficult to make power cheaper than with a Chevy ON A DYNO. In the car is a different story. Sanderson CC90's and Ram's Horn manifolds have the singular virtue of being useable in a Fiero, but they are by NO MEANS great for making power. To get a Chevy in a Fiero to make decent power, you have to overcome these issues with the exhaust, which is something that most people don't think about. And in a Fiero the cost of the kit must be rolled up into the cost of horsepower...
I don't consider an LS1 to be a small block. The only parts that interchange are rod bearings and valve lifters. It's a different engine.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-24-2006).]
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09:45 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Agreed that SBC is old school...but you can do anything you want to it. I raced supermodifieds ( sprint car in the north. midwest) in Oklahoma and Texas and we ran 301 chevy on carbs and had no trouble spinning over 9,000 rpms in the late 60s. I had engines last the whole season. My Ferrari kit had a highly modded 3.1 that was rated for 7200 (or 7500, I forget). It sounded very Ferrari when i got into it.
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12:16 PM
3084me Member
Posts: 1035 From: Bucks County, PA Registered: Apr 2005
I agree with most of your comments, Don't get me wrong. I realize that the typed word does seem a bit more agressive than an actual conversation and I certainly don't want to come off as one of these "I know everything" guys. Of course there is no "right or wrong" combo. But to be honest, not considering the LS1 a Small Block is pretty silly don't you think?
I agree that the Fiero is better suited for engines other than an SBC which (I also agree) is more at home in a Rear Wheel Drive car such as a Camaro, etc.
I also agree that you must take into consideration the cost of the Archie or other engine kit into to cost of the project as well.
But you also mentioned above about the cost to purchase a ZZ4. This puzzles me just a little bit. You are comparing the cost to purchase a ZZ4 vs a Northstar (which will no doubt come from a destroyed donor car) To be fair, why don't we price a similar "new or reman'd" Northstar and see how the cost compares to a comparable ZZ4 if that's the way someone wanted to do it. That would be fair would'nt it?? I'm not an expert but I would venture to guess that the cost of a Northstar would far exceed the cost of a ZZ4 if they were purchased new.
For the same reason that someone would pick up a donor Deville and use the Northstar in the swap, another builder can just as easily pick up a donor Vette, F-Body or GTO for the drivetrain and electronics.
I think it's only fair that if we compare a swap with a used Northstar that we compare numbers with a similar used SBC. That's just me.
As far as numbers shown on our dyno. I fail to see your point. If we dyno a Caddy with a northstar on the chassis dyno or dyno an engine after a rebuild on an engine dyno, It gives us a pretty darn accurate idea of HP before driveline loss. It's a tool just like anything else. And as far as the "longevity' of a custom / performance rebuild of a SBC, why would that be any different in quality than a production line assembled ZZ4? They are just assembled by people not special engine building elves with secret powers to make engines more reliable...
I'm not sure about your area but most performance shops, racers etc in our area (especially with machine shops) would'nt even consider wasting money on a Summit cookie cutter ZZ4 when you can put together the same or better performing engine with better quality components for less money. Not to pat myself on the back but I'd put any of my SBC rebuilds against a Crate engine as far as reliability goes.
Where are you at by the way? It sounds like you are pretty experienced with the Northstar. I'm in PA and have not been able to really see any "in progress" Northstar builds or projects. As I mentioned above I feel that with (hopefully) upcomming support and the current knowledge base that the Northstar isa fantastic swap that's for sure.
I'm considering doing a Diablo replica and unlike some other projects, an SBC in a car like that (even in my mind) is completely out of the question..
PS. I'm with you on the 302. I've only owned one and they are a fantastic motor. I've always wanted to have a F.I. setup on an original DZ motor. That would be fantastic.
Take care
[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 11-24-2006).]
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01:42 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
The VVT Northstar is $4325 in roughly the same state of completion as the turn key 350 HO that makes approximately the same power and costs $4495. For comparison, the turn key FB385 costs $5250.
This is a bit apples to oranges because the Chevies are carbed and the Northstar is EFI. It's probably a safe assumption that you could start with a $1600 290 HP crate engine or $2400 330 HO and build either with bolt-on parts into a 330 HP EFI engine for less than the cost of the Northstar, but the installation will be more expensive. It should also be noted that the Northstar price is for the VVT engine. The older fixed cam timing engines will be cheaper, but I couldn't find a price for them in a brief search.
Once both engines are equipped with EFI manifolding and injectors, the other costs (wiring, computer & tuning) will be a wash.
What I meant by the comment about making power on the dyno stems from the headlines on the covers of most hot rodding magazines: "80 bazillion HP from XXX engine combo!!!!!!!!!!". Opening to the article and looking at the pictures reveals that this output was made with a set of open collector long tube headers that would only fit in a tube chassis, a carb trumpet that wouldn't clear the hood of a Mack truck, electric waterpump, no accessories, who knows what coolant temp and a gas can in the background with a label that reads "105 octane". Such engines won't come CLOSE to their dyno measured power in most typical RWD chassis. The situation is even worse in a Fiero because of the limited exhaust options. A well optimized Chevy could drop 50 HP going from properly sized long tubes to Sandersons or Ram's Horns.
So, TEW, are you picking up any useful info from this spirited debate?
Yes, and thank you very much. I must say the Northstar looks really good. So, the biggest obstacle with the Northstar is getting a custom wiring harness to work with the Ferrari?
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08:55 PM
Nov 25th, 2006
Icelander Member
Posts: 302 From: Snohomish, WA, USA Registered: Aug 2006
I would think that since there is no ECU/harness in there now, that you could basically transplant a Caddy harness/ECU. It will require you to splice into the wiring harness or completely re-wire the instrumentation. I would look closely at the quality of the herness to see if it has been severely hacked already. You might want to approach someone to build you a new harness if it's a complete hack job.
I've been lucky so far with my 85's harness but I've got an old LeMans that was a spaghetti nightmare. It aint fun, but with patience and a couple of wiring diagrams, it's definitely possible to rebuild. The worst was my '82 Yamaha 750 Maxim's harness. It took two extra junkyard harnesses to get all the connectors and fuses collected.
Good luck! I'd love to see pictures of the build!
------------------ Kendall (Icelander) Whitlatch '85 Fiero 2M4 - 5spd Isuzu '67 LeMans/GTO clone 6.5 litre TH400 All the rest aren't Pontiacs, so what does it matter?
