quote Originally posted by timgray: Which is why using a PIC is better. you can make the determination that it is turn signal or brakes and act differently for each with less parts than the unstable RC time constant setup with relays that will flash at different rates depending on temperature. Most of the pre-built systems use a PIC of some type to make sure things work correctly and detect brake light activation.

the relay system is fine, and likely more reliable than the PIC, and easier to troubleshoot for the electronically impaired. there won;t be that great a variation from temp, more would be from voltage variations the fiero is known for.
as far as the brake lighting all, it would just require the addition of a few diodes...and installed at the proper wiring point from the turn signal switch.

well if i could get it setup to only do the sequence for the blinker that would be ideal braking not so much mabey a diffrent sequence lol

quote Originally posted by timgray: building it is quite easy if you have the electronics skills and know how to program a PIC micro. a 12c629 , 3 transistors and 3 relays can get it built in a heartbeat. then you can do cool things like cycle the turn signal multiple ways. But, if you are not an electronics wiz, can program PIC's and other items then you need to look for other ways of doing it, a old light chaser circuit would work if you adapt it for the number of bulbs you have and 12 volts.

...ohhhh sure you 'could' do it that way, but why waste the time and money???

Does not get any simpler...

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: I think you missed my point. If you are following someone, and you see one brake light bulb per side come on, on any vehicle, are you going to wait for more to light, before you do anything? When I hit my brake pedal, I have two brake light bulbs come on immediatly, with two more per side following in sequence. The first two lights, meet the DOT requirements, the other two are extra insurance. I could remove the two other bulbs per side completely, and still be in compliance. If someone hits me in the ass, I'll laugh when they try to blame me for their actions. Kevin

If the inside lights light up & then the middle & then the outside on both sides at once, it will confuse a lot of folks before they have time to react. Even with a CHMSL the sequencing lights could be a distraction. I stand by my statement that there are a lot of idiots out there. :-)
I realise what you're saying. But you missed my point: the insurance companies *will* sue you - & win - if you've modified your brake lights in such a mannor that they come on in a sequence instead of all at once. Trust me on that.
I would prefer to just not get hit in the first place, by having properly working brake lights.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

If you can't take the heat, get out of the nuclear reactor.

thank you mickey moose seems preety simple
i understand the concerns tha driver and of course i would want to have a way to turn the circuit off
just have a switch that shortcuts the fancy circuit

can be wired so that the brake lights do not sequence and only the turn signals - eliminate the problem...

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: can be wired so that the brake lights do not sequence and only the turn signals - eliminate the problem...

I had thought about attempting this, when I first installed mine, but never got around to it. Driver's got me thinking about it again.
I won't disagree, it would not be a bad idea, to have the brake lights not sequence once, I just felt I'm good with what I've got.

Kevin

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: can be wired so that the brake lights do not sequence and only the turn signals - eliminate the problem...

Yeah... that's what I'm sayin'. If you're going to do it, do it right. No reason to take a chance on having your car rear-ended.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

I *thought* I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

I won't argue the legality or the safety of sequential lights, I don't know what the laws are, and I'm sure they're different from state to state. The sequentials I sell can be wired for brake and turn, or turn only. They can also be wired with a switch so you can switch between sequential and normal operation. If Johnny Law is behind you, flip the switch and your lights look stock. I have sequentials on my car (turn and brake) and I've been directly followed by a PA state trooper and a local cop within the past few weeks. They didn't pull me over, but I'm sure there are plenty of other cops that would have.

I will make a few comments about building sequentials, becuase I have built and tested several designs of my own. One very important thing that hasn't been considered in this thread is the conditions found in the automotive environment. A circuit may work fine on a test bench, but fail in short time when hooked up to a car.

Voltage transients from load dumps or field decay need to be considered. These are high positive or negative voltage spikes that occur regularly in a vehicle's electrical system, sometimes in the order of several hundred volts. Sometimes they will cause immediate failure, but most of the time they will they cause minor damage to semiconductors, slowly degrading their performance over time until they eventually fail. Semiconductors need to be rated to handle these spikes or be properly protected.

Another consideration is the generally poor condition of the Fiero's electrical system. It is not uncommon to see only 10 volts at the tail light socket, even with 13-14 volts at the battery. There are large voltage drops in the steering column switches and connectors, and they are not consistent. So the sequencing circuit needs to be stable over a range of voltage.

One more consideration is temperature. Components need to operate over a very wide temerature range including sub-freezing temps. It is important to choose components with the correct temp range.

Yet another concern is vibration. Components need to be able to withstand pretty severe vibration. This is a primary concern when using relays, but also for the connections of all components. Relays should be rated for automotive use.

Good luck!
Jon

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: It's still not that hard to follow the KISS rule (Keep It Simple, Stupid) & code pages that work in all major browsers - Opera being one of them. If I can do it anyone can. If you don't then you loose customers/visitors. Button links? Never had any problem with mine... What is your URL? BTW Opera is my only choice right now; I'm using an older computer that I use for testing my sites in earlier versions of I.E. & Netscape, so I can't update I.E. - they won't let you go back to the earlier version (ain't microshit great?). I'm not confused, I'm just saying that sequencing brake lights is a bad thing. Another point I haven't mentioned: What if you're turning & turn on one of your signals & then hit the brakes? One will start sequencing, then the other. I'm telling you (everyone) that if your lights work like that you WILL get sued by any insurance co. of anyone that hits you - & YOU'LL LOSE! Trust me on that I know insurance companies. I had Screwed By insurance .com up for 4 years (still hope to get it back fully operational this winter). ~ Paul

ok, on opera, they apparently fixed it by making all the buttons do one link. no one uses em anyway, it;s a forum site, and the few who do use opera now have working buttons. Vbulletin is the base and it uses alot of IE only tricks, so we fix them to run to standard and work at least on everything, tho it does appear differrent on a non ie browser.

I agree on the brake lights, wasn;t arguing that, I was just stating (poorly as usual) that excluding the gt light set, the regular rear lights on a fiero, or any single lamp system, when braking, all lights are on. when braking and turning, one side stays on, and the other side blinks.
so whether all 3 blink at once or in sequence, it doesn;t much matter. people don;t see low cars. while doing the upgrade, might also be a good idea to use brighter bulbs too. I have to look it up, but there is a slightly brighter version of the 1157 that might be better in the tail lights.

antinull.com, Your car, your lights, your state, your rights. If you want them on , then install them, looks like they have you covered on the how to`s...

3800 i thought the thread died all ready lol

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: ok, on opera, they apparently fixed it by making all the buttons do one link. no one uses em anyway, it;s a forum site, and the few who do use opera now have working buttons. Vbulletin is the base and it uses alot of IE only tricks, so we fix them to run to standard and work at least on everything, tho it does appear differrent on a non ie browser. I agree on the brake lights, wasn;t arguing that, I was just stating (poorly as usual) that excluding the gt light set, the regular rear lights on a fiero, or any single lamp system, when braking, all lights are on. when braking and turning, one side stays on, and the other side blinks. so whether all 3 blink at once or in sequence, it doesn;t much matter. people don;t see low cars. while doing the upgrade, might also be a good idea to use brighter bulbs too. I have to look it up, but there is a slightly brighter version of the 1157 that might be better in the tail lights.

Huh? It's a commercial site selling products (web electric) we're talking about. Even when I paste in the above URL/page. I get a *different* page. That is not coding only for I.E. (which is screwed up in itself), that's just plain screwed up!
I love sequential turn signals, & plan to put them on my car when I build it (transfer the body panels to the '88 coupe & install the 283). I'm sure they're legal in every state. I'm just saying to sequence the brakes is screwed up & if hit YOU'LL be screwed! ;^P
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

The United States is the only industrialized nation to *outlaw* hemp production.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Huh? It's a commercial site selling products (web electric) we're talking about. Even when I paste in the above URL/page. I get a *different* page. That is not coding only for I.E. (which is screwed up in itself), that's just plain screwed up!

ahh ok, I see your point. that;s why I don;t use opera, too many sites don;t work. to each their own..

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: I love sequential turn signals, & plan to put them on my car when I build it (transfer the body panels to the '88 coupe & install the 283). I'm sure they're legal in every state. I'm just saying to sequence the brakes is screwed up & if hit YOU'LL be screwed! ;^P ~ Paul

ok, agreed there, brakes should not sequence, I never said they should, but these home brew circuits don;t address that issue. I beleive the one on that site does allow you to set the brake mode, or so they say.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: ahh ok, I see your point. that;s why I don;t use opera, too many sites don;t work. to each their own..

I'm on an older computer that I use to test my sites in earlier browsers & at 800x600 on windoze '95. I downloaded Opera 'cause a lot of sites wouldn't work in the older browsers, including Firefox & other Mozilla/Netscape variations - so I couldn't download them (how stupid is that???). Opera was the only site that worked for me to download a newer browser. I didn't want to upgrade I.E. 'cause they won't let you change back (ain't microshit great?), & unlike other web designers I want my sites to work in the older browsers too - so I need to keep I.E. V.4.7~ for testing.
My other computers are having modem problems (windoze again!) & my linix machine didn't recognize the modem when I installed the OS.
Maybe some day I'll find time to fix the other machines but for now I'm stuck with Opera.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

sequential brakes i agree are a bad idea turn signals are good tho...

my 85 3.4 was built by a guy named HazePerformance i think, he did sequentials, turn signals and no brake lights, the timings perfect on em too. I love it.

Saw where someone was interested in the relay version of the Sequential lights. Maybe easier for some to build that don't want to deal with IC's
Here is how it was done and I added an extra relay on the top so that you could turn all the lights on for braking instead of having them sequence out. It acts like an And gate so that it only happens when both the left and right are enabled during braking. You can leave everything above the line out if you want the brakes to sequence.
You also need to replace the standard flasher with an electronic one so the rate stays the same. $10.
Can be built on a small perf board with minimal solider skills.
You might have to adjust the resistors to get the rate you want. Start with the 150 ohm and if to slow change to the 100 ohm.
You just dup the circuit for the right side without the top relay.



The way it works is that the capacitor acts like a short when power is first applied keeping the left relay off until the cap charges thru the resistor. When the voltage across the relay coil get high enough it pulls in turning on the middle light and applying power to the second relay that repeats the charging like the first.

The additional top relay applies power directly to both relays thru the diodes to turn all lights on at once. The diodes isolate the power from each relay so that they will not be affected when just the turn signals are used.


I have the original docs as pdf's (poor condition but readable) that shows the board layout for the standard four relays. I can't find who I got them from so I can't give him credit. If you would a copy send your email and I'll forward a copy.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 11-21-2006).]

wow cool that seems a bit easier and no ic i havent gotten anything done yet im going t focus on other parts frst