Thanks for looking - and helping if you are able-

I currently have a crate engine in my car. The previous owner (Yons at Yons Racing) swears it is a 330hp GM crate engine from Summit Racing, but the only 330hp engine I could find over there has Vortec heads, and mine have 6 intake bolt holes, so I don't see how these could be Vortec heads. I have seen some Vortec heads with 6 bolt holes, but the cast also had "Vortec" molded into it. Perhaps there are other versions of the Vortec? My casting # is 462624.

So, here is what I have


You can see that the intake ports are not square, but they are wider at the bottom with a little notch left in at the top corner - obvious in this photo

When I put the new Edelbrock intake gasket for my Performer RPM intake (6-bolt), it matches right up

When I put the same gasket on the heads, they don't line up so well and look like this (making me think they are not correct for these heads

My questions:
1- Can this possibly be a Vortec, or some other head?
2- Could this head (casting 462624) possibly have been on a high performance GM crate engine?
3- Why such a big difference in port size/shape between the Edelrock intake ports and the GM head ports? Is the difference normal?
4- If I use this gasket, will I have problems again?

Thanks for any help. I want to make sure I am using the right gasket this time because the last one had a bad leak.

I would'nt call myself a SBC expert. (I'm a big block guy) but I'd be glad to check with my friend Ed at GM for some additional info. Most of the SBC's I've built were in high school (Which was from 81' to 85' so I may be a help to your situation). Unless GM uses old castings (which I doubt), I don't think you have Vortec heads there. Instead, I would imagine that you have a set of SBC heads from a chevy truck engine or heavy full size car such as a caprice. Often these engines were 4 bolt mains (in the truck) which is good.

The number you post is a mid 80's number from the info that I have here. The range of head casting numbers falls within the 1986 range or Truck Head castings. The number you post 462264 should / will suggest a head casting number of 14079261.

14034810...80-86...350..........Truck
14034811...80-86...350..........Truck
14039121...81-86...305..........Truck
14039122...81-86...305..........Truck
14071114...80-86...350
14075381...80-86...350..........Truck

----> 14079261...86......350 <----

14085844...80-86...350..........Truck
14085963...86......350

I can't seem to remember the "notch" pictured though and this seems a bit weird to me but again, I'm not that familiar with Vortec Heads. I can tell you that the 4.3 Vortec heads and intake from my older K-1500 are "visually different" than my 93 K-1500 with the "standard" 4.3. I would guess that The same should be true with the V8's.

Production Vortec iron cylinder head was first used on the 1996 pickup truck RPO L31 with fuel injection. The intake and exhaust ports are very similar to the Corvette 350 LT1 heads. This head includes 1.94" intake valves and 1.50" exhaust valves, with pressed-in 3/8" studs. You number does'nt appear to coincide with this sequence. (The 96 production Vortec casting is 12558060).

The 12529093 Cast Iron Vortec Cylinder Head is sold as a bare head and is identical to complete head assembly P/N 12558060 except it does not include intake valves, exhaust valves, springs, and retainers.
Edit:

I also just ran across the following:

http://www.chevy-350-engines.com/chevy-cylinder-head-10242.html

And the Mortec Site seem to coincide with the same group of mid 80's head casting numbers that I have here: (toward the bottom). Look for 14079261.

http://www.mortec.com/castnum.htm

Also: To make things a bit more weird, I also see a listing in the older head casting book for a set of heads used on both 350's and 400's. They have a casting number of:

462624 350 / 400 1.72/1.5 &1.94/1.5 76cc - 400 has steam holes in deck

By any chance, do you seem steam holes ?? I've only had 1 SBC 400 but I was a loooooog time ago. Perhaps this may be something to look into. If your head is missing the 14079261 number , mabye you have an older set of 350 / 400 heads (400 only if you have steam holes). That could possibly explain the "notch". I'll see if I can dig up some info.

Hope that helps.

PS: What is the block casting number of the engine??

I would'nt forsee a "huge" issue between your intake , gasket and block "with the notch" your intake charge should be pretty much atomized and "dropletts" hitting that portion would be minimal. I've seen far worse with BIg Blocks and Pontiac and Olds motors with incorrect heads with the port difference was drastic causing "puddling" of fuel and a rich running condition but I would imagine that you would have a problem.

To play it safe, you could always buy a roll of "intake suitable" gasket material and make your own intake gaskets that have the exact shape. Pep Boys, Advance etc will usually sell a 24" x 8" roll of that type of gasket for about $8 or so. Not much $$$ but just a bit of time and careful cutting.

[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 10-19-2006).]

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/howto/97458/

A how to article relating to vortec heads... all have a sawtooth pattern cast on the front of the head.



Hope this helps

BTW those are NOT vortec heads... missing little things like centerbolt valve covers and intake bolt holes that allow the intake to be bolted straight down to the heads instead of the holes being perpendicular to the machined surface of the head.

[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 10-19-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 3084me: I would'nt call myself a SBC expert. (I'm a big block guy) but I'd be glad to check with my friend Ed at GM for some additional info. Most of the SBC's I've built were in high school (Which was from 81' to 85' so I may be a help to your situation). Unless GM uses old castings (which I doubt), I don't think you have Vortec heads there. Instead, I would imagine that you have a set of SBC heads from a chevy truck engine or heavy full size car such as a caprice. Often these engines were 4 bolt mains (in the truck) which is good. The number you post is a mid 80's number from the info that I have here. The range of head casting numbers falls within the 1986 range or Truck Head castings. The number you post 462264 should / will suggest a head casting number of 14079261. 14034810...80-86...350..........Truck 14034811...80-86...350..........Truck 14039121...81-86...305..........Truck 14039122...81-86...305..........Truck 14071114...80-86...350 14075381...80-86...350..........Truck ----> 14079261...86......350 <---- 14085844...80-86...350..........Truck 14085963...86......350 I can't seem to remember the "notch" pictured though and this seems a bit weird to me but again, I'm not that familiar with Vortec Heads. I can tell you that the 4.3 Vortec heads and intake from my older K-1500 are "visually different" than my 93 K-1500 with the "standard" 4.3. I would guess that The same should be true with the V8's. Production Vortec iron cylinder head was first used on the 1996 pickup truck RPO L31 with fuel injection. The intake and exhaust ports are very similar to the Corvette 350 LT1 heads. This head includes 1.94" intake valves and 1.50" exhaust valves, with pressed-in 3/8" studs. You number does'nt appear to coincide with this sequence. (The 96 production Vortec casting is 12558060). The 12529093 Cast Iron Vortec Cylinder Head is sold as a bare head and is identical to complete head assembly P/N 12558060 except it does not include intake valves, exhaust valves, springs, and retainers. Edit: I also just ran across the following: http://www.chevy-350-engines.com/chevy-cylinder-head-10242.html And the Mortec Site seem to coincide with the same group of mid 80's head casting numbers that I have here: (toward the bottom). Look for 14079261. http://www.mortec.com/castnum.htm Also: To make things a bit more weird, I also see a listing in the older head casting book for a set of heads used on both 350's and 400's. They have a casting number of: 462624 350 / 400 1.72/1.5 &1.94/1.5 76cc - 400 has steam holes in deck By any chance, do you seem steam holes ?? I've only had 1 SBC 400 but I was a loooooog time ago. Perhaps this may be something to look into. If your head is missing the 14079261 number , mabye you have an older set of 350 / 400 heads (400 only if you have steam holes). That could possibly explain the "notch". I'll see if I can dig up some info. Hope that helps.

Thanks, 3084me-

I don't know about steam holes, and I'll look for the 14079261, but I don't think it is there. The block casting is 10066036 if that helps nail down what crate engine this is. The notch seems wierd to me for sure.

I apreciate your time and knowledge!

Oh yeah, and I doubt anyone would use that on a performance engine, it is a 79-85 head with 1.94 intake and 1.50 (not even a 1.60) exhaust valve. Should have a 76cc combustion chamber. That doesn't mean Summit or whoever didn't use that head prior to the vortec craze for their economy high performance builds... might have rebuilt them with larger valves/throated behind the valves, whatever... but it doesn't look like it when they didn't even portmatch the intake side to a gasket.

Your block casting puts the id at:

10066036...350...........2 or 4...Target Master/Goodwrench crate motor, 2-piece rear
seal, "Hecho en Mexico"

Pretty much a standard replcament SBC. I believe they are rated between 215 to 245 hp and I think almost all are 4 bolt main blocks but I can try to confirm.

Here is some info on the Mexican block:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=509791#post509791

[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 10-19-2006).]

Block casting number you give is for a mexican built GM Goodwrench crate engine... gotta watch for weird measurements on a lot of those engines. From what I've heard they sent a bunch of parts that were at the edge of tolerances (blocks bored with new cutters that ended up on the large size, then when the cutters were worn out and were undersized... that sort of thing) to mexico where they hand assembled them to keep from stacking tolerances, so everything is at either end of tolerances but fits right until you try putting fresh quality parts in.

Dude, do you think Yons is outright lying about what engine is there or do you think he really believes that it is a vortec crate engine and maybe he got duped? Didn't he at one time say he was looking for the paperwork from Summit?

Your gaskets look fine for the manifold and heads you have, but those arren't vortec heads.

Russ

Mabye Yons just was under the assumption from the previous owner that it was a Summit / Crate Engine and is just passing it along. (not saying that's correct to do, just mentioning it)

It seems that almost everytime you see an engine listed, it's a "crate motor". (Honestly, who cares if it is or not). There is nothing magical about the components and certainly starting with a seasoned 4 bolt block with a nice set of heads is more the comparable (if not better anyway). If you look at all the people selling engines that list them as "Crate Motors", I think it would actually exceed the production numbers of crate motors themselves.

When I was younger, everyone in highschool "had" a early 70's Corvette LT-1. It was insane!. Coming from a family of Corvette owners and car nuts in general. I always got a kick out of telling people that their 2bbl, HYDRAULIC LIFTER 350 (and many times 307!) Was in fact an ordinary 350 (or 307) and not a Solid Lifter LT-1. I never understood why people did'nt look at the casting numbers and when we did (and they did'nt match), they still insisted it was some "rare" factory mix-up... Oooooh Mysterious.....

I'm not really into the SBC at all anymore but it would seem to me that anyone that was, would realize that the Vortec is "newer technology" and all that I've seen have the centerbolt valvecovers which started "trickling into" the market in late 86 / early 87. The first year VORTEC was even mentioned inProduction was in 86 with the 4.3 liter and the V8's followed after that.. I would Imagine that given the "year range" that most if not all should be 1pc rear main seals as well. Intakes are visually different looking (and bolting) as well differences in the heads. (GREAT EYE on the pattern posted above by the way, I never noticed that and thats great to know).


Not sure why I got into that "semi-rant" but wanted to just throw that out there. I'm not sure what kind of deal you made. It's kind of a shame if you were basing the purchase on a Vortec Engine / heads and did'nt get that but if you got a decent deal, I guess it's still not too bad. 76cc heads are'nt exactly the "head of choice" for performance applications but you can still make decent power and in a fiero, I'm sure it's still going to be a fun ride just the same.

[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 10-19-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Doc-:Dude, do you think Yons is outright lying about what engine is there or do you think he really believes that it is a vortec crate engine and maybe he got duped? Didn't he at one time say he was looking for the paperwork from Summit?

He said he would look (along with several other things I'll save for another thead), but then he said to stop calling him. If he would have responded to ANYTHING I've sent since finding the engine discrepancy, I would not have tried calling. Now he won't answer. He knows the casting #s now and still will not answer me, so that about sums things up. With all the bad sales he has had before, I imagine this is just another one. I guess I have enough material to write a Domestic Driver article on "What to Look for When Buying a Used Car." It wil include in-depth searches to find out what the seller is really like!

Luckily, I got a great deal on what I did buy, even though it is not what I agreed to buy (again).

(begin rant)
I would just like to buy a car as described instead of the deception I have dealt with on my last two sales. Dishonest people like Steve Yanda (Yons) and Cory Reynolds (GT40Cory) give the rest of you good sellers a bad name. If Steve does not try to help me at all (like he is currently doing), I will simply put up a thread solely on him, warning others about his sales tactics. There is nothing else I can do, really. If it effects his "Yons Racing" business, then the business will eventually fail anyway, because word of mouth and bad reputations will catch up with bad sellers. Look at GT40Cory. He won't be able to sell another one of his crappy GT40 kits now that Archie and I are on to him. For now, be aware that "Bluegin" is his wife (who has a very good reputation here - from what I have seen) and he may try to buy/sell things under her name. I am sure she does not want her name associated with his sales tactics, but we have to watch out for each other here. "Bluegin", I am sorry you are caught up in this bad sale - by association.
(Rant over - for now)

Anyway, I guess it's time to find some good steel Vortec heads. I figure it will cost about $1000 to get the car to where he described it - engine wise.

Thank you guys for all the answers!

those are the same numbers that my stock 84 corvette heads had on them. i would tell you those arent vortecs but thats been done already. i will tell you that for any money or time you are going to put in those heads, for the price YOU CANT BEAT vortecs. they are very good heads for the price!! you might want to entertain the thought of purchasing some. i bought mine new from summit and if you do, get the upgraded ones that can accomodate more lift. you wont be dissapointed

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Keith
Topsail Beach,NC
86&87 Fiero GT
86&96 Corvette
04 Harley Davidson Softail
73 Lotus Europa Twin Cam
86 Lotus Turbo Esprit

"He who dies with the most toys wins!!!"

quote Originally posted by luvin_my_fiero:those are the same numbers that my stock 84 corvette heads had on them. i would tell you those arent vortecs but thats been done already. i will tell you that for any money or time you are going to put in those heads, for the price YOU CANT BEAT vortecs. they are very good heads for the price!! you might want to entertain the thought of purchasing some. i bought mine new from summit and if you do, get the upgraded ones that can accomodate more lift. you wont be dissapointed

Great! I'll probably be getting the heads when I sell this extra 87 GT - or at least part it out for the rebuilt engine and Getrag. The Getrag has no miles on the rebuild, so I should get enough from that to buy the heads - maybe even an intake, too!

wow. sorry to read all this misery.
so now on to the what to do:
gaskets: that is absolutely normal for gaskets to not follow the contour of the ports. it is extremely rare when they do!
some work with a rotary file/burr will quickly get it all matched up if you are so inclined. I usually paing the intake surface with some blue ing, then when dry put the gaske on with some bolts to hold the position, the scribe a line on the inside edge into the bluing. then work it right thru to the valve pockets. A bit of work the first time you do it. but if you are going for the vortec heads, then I wouldn;t worry about it.

water in the oil. 10 to 1 it got there during the dis-assembly. unless you blew the motor out with compressed air first, it seems to always find a way to trickle down into the oil on sbc's. it lays in the intake, then when hyou crack it loose it runs down into the valley and into the pan.

not much else to say, good lucj with the rebuild!

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun:wow. sorry to read all this misery. so now on to the what to do: gaskets: that is absolutely normal for gaskets to not follow the contour of the ports. it is extremely rare when they do! some work with a rotary file/burr will quickly get it all matched up if you are so inclined. I usually paing the intake surface with some blue ing, then when dry put the gaske on with some bolts to hold the position, the scribe a line on the inside edge into the bluing. then work it right thru to the valve pockets. A bit of work the first time you do it. but if you are going for the vortec heads, then I wouldn;t worry about it. water in the oil. 10 to 1 it got there during the dis-assembly. unless you blew the motor out with compressed air first, it seems to always find a way to trickle down into the oil on sbc's. it lays in the intake, then when hyou crack it loose it runs down into the valley and into the pan. not much else to say, good lucj with the rebuild!

Thanks, Man. It would be nice if all of that coolant came from the intake removal, but I think that all that rust around the intake meant it was leaking a bit. The engine did sound good when it ran, so I think there is no damage. From what I know, the engine has only run a total of 10 minutes so far. Getting it all back together will tell me!

Like I said, the car is well-worth the price. The lack of help from the seller is not. With help from you guys, this baby will be at the track before the season ends. Thanks again!

luvin_my_fiero brings up an interesting point.

If the head castings match his 84 corvette, then the "mystery" of the odd shaped ports may be solved. They may be that way to mate to the Crossfire intake that the 84 vette should have. It's been way to long but I seem to remember hearing about a "different looking" port on those intakes but I don't know for sure.

I agree with you. You'll be back together and down at the track in not time. (Still, it's a pain in the @ss to not get what you paid for though..)

quote Originally posted by 3084me:luvin_my_fiero brings up an interesting point. If the head castings match his 84 corvette, then the "mystery" of the odd shaped ports may be solved. They may be that way to mate to the Crossfire intake that the 84 vette should have. It's been way to long but I seem to remember hearing about a "different looking" port on those intakes but I don't know for sure. I agree with you. You'll be back together and down at the track in not time. (Still, it's a pain in the @ss to not get what you paid for though..)

Here is a shot of a later (90?) model of the Crossfire ports. They are a good bit smaller than the regular ports on this head, but mine only have a small corner that is not cleared. These have an entire 1/3 of the port blocked. I do see what you are talking about, but I could not find heads or intake shots of an 84 Crossfire.

Crossfire ports:

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 10-20-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Here is a shot of a later (90?) model of the Crossfire ports. They are a good bit smaller than the regular ports on this head, but mine only have a small corner that is not cleared. These have an entire 1/3 of the port blocked. I do see what you are talking about, but I could not find heads or intake shots of an 84 Crossfire.

You need to think more in terms of what "mass produced" requires to understand the "missmatch" on your heads/gaskets. The corners that have material in them is excess metal that's required to provide meat for the threaded holes that retain the valve covers. the rest of the port that isn't spot on is simply allowance for casting core shift. you could grab 50 sets of heads and they would all exibit some degree of this mismatch, but each one would be slightly different from the others. the sand cores that are used in the casting process move a small amount when the part is cast. this is also what is meant when we "port match" a set of heads for performance work. simply a matter of blending in the ports on the heads to match the gasket/manifold and improve flow. the small corner can't normally be totally ground away however, without grinding through into the bolt hole.
All I'm saying is that these heads, though not vortec, are entirely normal Chev castings used on a few million small blocks over the past zillion years. if your compression ratio is above 9:1 or so, with the pistons you're using, then they will work just fine for anything up to 375 hp or so.

oops - I quoted when I should have edited (to include the photo above)

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 10-20-2006).]

Russ544 is correct, the "odd" port shape is normal for mass produced stock low performance head.

you have an LM1 crate motor. Obvious by the mexican block and the Hencho En Mexico on your heads. 260hp with the right combo. I dynoed a few combos with this motor, and i did hit 260hp. This was using an edelbrock RPM intake, holley 650 carb, electroc water pump (no accessories) 1 5/8 headers, curved distributor @ about 39 degrees of timing no vacuum advance. realistically with accessories in a car it would probably be around 245

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Fiero- mild 2.9 160hp
Caprice- wild 383 500hp
--Adam-- ASE Certified Technician
IM AOL: FieroGT5speed

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1:Russ544 is correct, the "odd" port shape is normal for mass produced stock low performance head. you have an LM1 crate motor. Obvious by the mexican block and the Hencho En Mexico on your heads. 260hp with the right combo. I dynoed a few combos with this motor, and i did hit 260hp. This was using an edelbrock RPM intake, holley 650 carb, electroc water pump (no accessories) 1 5/8 headers, curved distributor @ about 39 degrees of timing no vacuum advance. realistically with accessories in a car it would probably be around 245

Well, that makes two LM1's in my garage. The Fino already has one. At least they can share parts, huh?

Thanks for the info!

Just found 1MO7095VP on the front of the block. Google comes up with nothing. Any idea? I remember a similar set of numbers on another thread that showed a specific crate motor.

Sax, if you decide not to buy the vortec heads and want to port the ones you have i got a new set of carbide bits for my air die grinder - they work fast and shouldn't have a problem atleast gasket matching the ports

Another defining characteristic of the Vortec head in addition to all of them having center bolt valve covers is the spiral ramp in the intake port. I have seen that feature on the 96 heads with the heart shaped combustion chamber and another set that I have on my Fiero that are pre 96 I believe with the traditional style combustion chamber but still contain the spiral ramp that directs the air into the cylinder.

From my own experience the individuals that are true to their claims about the items they are selling usually have something in addition to their words like receipts and pictures to back it up. Sooner or later bad business dealers will take advantage of someone less civil and more likely to drive a nail through your knee cap to get the point of how serious they take being toyed with and being "ripped off".

Thanks, Man. I can see myself doing the port-matching some time, but it will be a while (unless this engine has problems on startup tonight). I don't see myself tearing this one down for quite a while since I have to start moving Fino parts over once the Purple-Pain is driveable.

I'll let you know when the time comes.

Say - do we need to have a Chesapeake Fiero gathering to do some building on your construction site?

quote Originally posted by Saxman: I'll let you know when the time comes. Say - do we need to have a Chesapeake Fiero gathering to do some building on your construction site?

yeah just let me know -

for the construction.. soon.. its coming along nicely now that the lumbar is going up. possibly in a week or so i'll be siding..

quote Originally posted by Kohburn:yeah just let me know - for the construction.. soon.. its coming along nicely now that the lumbar is going up. possibly in a week or so i'll be siding..

Is that the garage or a really big window?