Hey all, I really need some help with this one. I'm seriously so bummed I have no idea where to turn.

Heres the scoop; I was changing the spark plugs on the stock V6 and everything was fine until I got to the fifth one. The one in the back middle. I pulled the wire off of the spark plug reached my hand down to feel what general angle the plug was in. This is where it turned ugly...I felt debris down there... There was a very small dry leaf(which wasn't bad at all) but then I felt ceramic peices too. I swept away what I could and ran my finger down the shaft and what feels like a quarter of the plug was gone(broken vertically).

Now all of this wouldn't be so bad but feeling the plug there is no hex head that my 5/8 inch plug driver can grab on to. What's even stranger to me is that feeling as far down as I could down the shaft that the plug goes into, the shaft is concave(gets smaller) and my driver can't go down it even if the hex part of the plug is down lower.

Is there any way I can remove this spark plug? Can anyone tell me if the middle/back hole is concave(gets smaller) and takes a special driver and spark plug? Or am I crazy?

I really don't know what to do here guys... School starts for me in a week and I just thought I would change the wires and plugs so it would run better. If worse comes to worse do you think I can completely remove the spark plug wire and drive it to a mechanic without harming the engine? Any help would be appreciated... I'm dying here.

do you have an air compressor with a "blow nozzle" that you can use to blow out any debris? i imagine that its just crap in there that is not allowing you to get a good grip on it.

can you get a mirror back there to look at it?

I don't have an air compressor but I can try to vacuum the debris out... as far as a mirror I can borrow one from my sister and take a look back there. The thing is though that I don't feel any more debris down there at all... It just feels like the walls of that shaft are closing in smaller. Completely smooth with not enough gap around the edges to get the driver down there... I'll try some more tonight and continue tomorrow morning too. Thanks for your reply.

The first thing you want to do is take a mirror (stand in the trunk if you need to)and look at the plug with the mirror to get a better idea of what your working with (use a flash light too if you need one).If it looks like theres enough there to remove it,you will have some choices to make.
1.Break off the remainder of the porcilin.
2.Now that the porcilin is gone,use any socket that fits Firmily,a breaker bar (non rachet),will help speed removal) .
3.If the plug is rounded,then take a socket that fits and hammer it on.
4.Dont make the situation worse,make absoultely sure your turning in the correct direction.
5.If it doesnt look like something you can fix,then take it to the shop for repair.

Hmmm... I've never heard of a plug breaking through the metal base. Not to say that it can't be done...

If you've got a small digital camera, you might try to get a picture or two. As I understand it the heads are the same on both sides. The center plug hole on the back of the engine, will be the same shape as the one on the front.

Once you get a picture of the broken plug, you can make a plan as to how to get it out.

You may look into dropping the front of the cradle to see if you can get better access to the front plugs. (Maybe someone with more experience with the V6 can provide some more details.)

I live just north of you. I've got a camera if you don't. I can probably swing by if you need help. Drop me a note if you want help.

------------------
Kendall (Icelander) Whitlatch
'85 Fiero 2M4 - 5spd Isuzu
'67 LeMans/GTO clone 6.5 litre TH400
All the rest aren't Pontiacs, so what does it matter?

That middle # 4 is trouble, standard sockets, ratchets, ect, always push up against the firewall then throw your angle off, try inserting the spark plug socket first, then add your ratchet to that or a small exstention, if you need to --remove the battery for more room--take your time, it will come out, its easier to attack the # 4 & # 6 from the battery side, lay on a board accross the plentum or stand in the trunk...

quote Originally posted by James Bond 007: The first thing you want to do is take a mirror (stand in the trunk if you need to)and look at the plug with the mirror to get a better idea of what your working with (use a flash light too if you need one).If it looks like theres enough there to remove it,you will have some choices to make. 1.Break off the remainder of the porcilin. 2.Now that the porcilin is gone,use any socket that fits Firmily,a breaker bar (non rachet),will help speed removal) . 3.If the plug is rounded,then take a socket that fits and hammer it on. 4.Dont make the situation worse,make absoultely sure your turning in the correct direction. 5.If it doesnt look like something you can fix,then take it to the shop for repair.

Thanks for the input. But what exactly is a 'breaker bar'? Is it like a tire iron sort of? With a socket head end but stationary? Also, what exactly do you mean with option 3...? By hammering I mean. Are you suggesting hammering down onto the socket so it grabs on deeper onto the plug? Sorry for all the questions.

quote Originally posted by SoFi: Thanks for the input. But what exactly is a 'breaker bar'? Is it like a tire iron sort of? With a socket head end but stationary? Also, what exactly do you mean with option 3...? By hammering I mean. Are you suggesting hammering down onto the socket so it grabs on deeper onto the plug? Sorry for all the questions.

I think James is saying **if the plug is rounded** and your socket spins on it--move over to a smaller socket and hammer it over the rounded area of the plug, then try to back it out that way. A breaker bar is the same as a cheater bar, its used for leverage, its a hollow or open piece of pipe, a larger socket, ect, ect, any thing that you can slip over your ratchet to leverage more torque...

yes and yes.

before i'd start hammering down on any a plug i'd make 99.9% sure that its clean of debris. use anything small you can find, ice pick, paper clip, etc and try to dig around the base and get any debris out. then i'd shoot a bunch of wd-40, liquid wrench, pb blaster, etc to get any loose stuff out and help loosen the plug out.

I thought I had the same thing happen to me, but only the top of the plug was broke. I couldnt get the socket to fit becasue of all the leaves and crap that had built up around the plug, adn you cant see the damn thing. I used a 12 point socket and tapped her in using the wrench untill it was tight and it finally came out after an hour, I had to repeat this step over and over.

quote Originally posted by SoFi: Thanks for the input. But what exactly is a 'breaker bar'?

Hi-
With respect, I think you're not experienced enough to continue.
If you do a search on this forum on changing firewall side spark plugs, you'll find that some of the better shade-tree mechanics have a problem with this repair- it's a ***** . You're over your head.

A Breaker bar is a socket ratchet without the ratcheting feature- kinda like a tire iron with a hinge where it attaches to the socket. It's a BASIC tool. You will also need a Ratchet with a HINGED head.

I'm steeling up to change those plugs, but not till I have to!
1. I will remove the decklid to get more working room ( there's a specific way to do this without smashing your rear window- do a search here)
2. I will clean out the firewall side of the engine with degreaser, a brush, a hose, compressed air- whatever it takes to clear the spark plugs. I'll VERIFY this with a mirror and a shop light.
3. I'll get a heavy blanket, tarp, or thick foam to place over the engine to lay on.
4. I'll soak the plugs with PB BLASTER to loosen the plugs.
5. The next day, I'll soak the plugs with PB BLASTER to loosen the plugs.
6. The third day, I'll soak the plugs with PB BLASTER to loosen the plugs.
7. I'll try to loosen the plugs on the BUMPER side of the engine first, to get some experience as to what to expect. I suspect I might have to grind down the length of a spark plug socket to get a little more clearance against the firewall. Some one said it was easier to remove the Plugs while the engine was hot- I dunno- the manifolds get HOT.
8. Spark Plug selection is pretty specific- Do a search here to see what is actually working for other drivers.

G'Luck.
-JT

i've had this happen also,mine had old oil and dirt built up to where you couldnt feel the hex part of the plug,done just what these guys are saying ,take the socket had tap it down onto the plug ,and use the cheater bar mrthod and it should come out with some effort,

quote Originally posted by SoFi: Thanks for the input. But what exactly is a 'breaker bar'? Is it like a tire iron sort of? With a socket head end but stationary? Also, what exactly do you mean with option 3...? By hammering I mean. Are you suggesting hammering down onto the socket so it grabs on deeper onto the plug? Sorry for all the questions.

Yes,sort of like a tire iron,but it has no rachet and the sockets can be changed like a standard socket wrench.With a handle thats double the length of a standard socket wrench,you will have greater turning force,but with less effort and because it has no rachet you wont have to worrie about stripping the gear because there in none..

Well, a day later I finally got the plug out(took an hour for that damned thing!). Taking advice from one fo the earlier posts I used some canned compressed air (don't have a compressor), an etching tool to dig around a bit (nothing much came out), and took some pictures with a digital camera on 'macro setting' and with flash on. Thanks to the pictures I realized the hex part of the plug was still there. So with a little coaxing (with a hammer and very very light taps) the socket made it on just fine. And with a little more coaxing plug came out too.

Thanks for the input everyone. But I have to wonder, is it just my luck or does everyone have a problem with one thing going wrong when they're doing ANY type of work? The other five where a breeze.

hey i'm glad to see ya got it!

everything i have ever worked on has had some sort of problem. this is why mechanics make good $, its a PITA to work on cars.

if doesn't help that i'm the monkey behind the wrench.

Glad to see that you got the plug out ok.

I like to use the camera as it's difficult sometimes to remember what it was you were looking at in the mirror... Got a mind like a steel seive...



Drop me a note if you want any help.

Kendall

But I have to wonder, is it just my luck or does everyone have a problem with one thing going wrong when they're doing ANY type of work?

I usually don't like working on my Fiero becauses of this phenomena. It took me three weeks to get all the plugs out of my 88GT. After eight years, the plugs were in pretty good. Then I managed to mix up wires. I ended up removing them and putting anti sieze compound on the threads and managed to mix up the wires a second time.

It only took me one week to get the plugs out of my 87GT, but they had only been in for four years.

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: But I have to wonder, is it just my luck or does everyone have a problem with one thing going wrong when they're doing ANY type of work? I usually don't like working on my Fiero becauses of this phenomena. It took me three weeks to get all the plugs out of my 88GT. After eight years, the plugs were in pretty good. Then I managed to mix up wires. I ended up removing them and putting anti sieze compound on the threads and managed to mix up the wires a second time. It only took me one week to get the plugs out of my 87GT, but they had only been in for four years.

I feel your pain. To fix one thing, I break two more. Or so it feels, sometimes. I get over it pretty quickly, though.

You've probably already thought of this and done it, but if you haven't, you should get some anti-sieze and apply a thin coat to the threads of the new plugs.

Whoops - I guess I should read a little more carefully. Someone already mentioned that. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by William Federle (edited 09-11-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Icelander: Glad to see that you got the plug out ok. I like to use the camera as it's difficult sometimes to remember what it was you were looking at in the mirror... Got a mind like a steel seive... Drop me a note if you want any help. Kendall

Thanks for that camera tip Kendall, I never would have thought of the camera thing my self. As for everyone else thanks a bunch too. Lot of good/helpful people on this forum.

A little off topic, but Kendall do you have a Fiero too? I haven't seen too many around these parts(I'm actually in Renton). I've only seen about 7 in the last year. In Bellevue I've seen a nice white Gt, a black Gt, and a gold Gt. Renton I've seen an 85 or 86 Gt and a red 2m4. Could one of these been yours? There's also one on the side of I405 going south from Lynnwood (hopefully not yours).

Wow! There's a red notchback on the shoulder of I-5 going North in Lynnwood too!

Nope! Mine's a black '85 2M4 5-speed that I just inherited from my nephew. (Couldn't be bothered to fix it and couldn't be bothered to sell it. His loss is my gain.)

I'm up here in Snohomish and only get as far South as Seattle usually (or Bellevue)

I've been thinking of putting my Popeye avatar under one of the sail panels to make it identifiable.

Wish that I had the evening free to be at the Fiero club meeting Wednesday night at XXX restaurant. I'd like to meet up with some of you guys.

Look for a PM from me.

------------------
Kendall (Icelander) Whitlatch
'85 Fiero 2M4 - 5spd Isuzu
'67 LeMans/GTO clone 6.5 litre TH400
All the rest aren't Pontiacs, so what does it matter?