So I've been trying to bleed my clutch for an eternity while I'm doing my project car and thought the whole time it was a bleeding issue since I didn't get enough travel out of the slave rod.

I'm talking off the top of my head so feel free to correct any info that I put down.....

As far as I know I should be getting 15/16" travel out of my slave cylinder rod. Currently I'm getting about 5/16" - 3/8" tops.
I'm using the Rodney Dickman bracket for the clutch slave cylinder.
I'm using a WCF kevlar/kevlar clutch along with a WCF pressure plate.
The transmission is a getrag which I had rebuilt at a tranny shop. I put together the clutch arm in the tranny myself (and assumed I knew what I was doing when I did it).

I finally rigged up a way to bleed my clutch 100% all by myself today and assured my clutch was bled 110%. I go my wife to operate the clutch and still only had 3/8" travel absolute maximum. I had the rod boot off so i could observe the slave to see if there was a leak. That's when I noticed the slave was bottomed out! It could not travel anymore than it had. I thought I could adjust the position of the shift arm on the shaft but it only sits in one position so noadjustment can be made there.

I'm dropping the whole engine cradle again to readjust the motor/tranny mounts so I can pull the tranny apart at that time to verify exxactly how the clutch arm inside the bellhousing is working. Before that happens I'd like to get some input and see if anyone has encountered this problem before. Maybe there's an easy fix that I'm not aware of.

I figure I can do one of two things to fix the situation (assuming I haven't done anything incorrect.

1. Machine down the slave cylinder mount holes to allow the slave cylinder to sit closer to the clutch arm
2. Figure out how to adjust the position of the shift arm internally (perhaps it's not in the right place or I've forgotten a piece inside. It could also be that the WCF clutch/pressure plate is different dimensions than stock).

Any information would be helpful.

How long is the push rod?
Any pics of what your working with?

I can get pictures right away. I'll measure the push rod while I'm at it. I compared it to the push rod of the old slave and they were the same length.

This picture shows the roney dickman bracket I'm using. I compared the distance of the face of the slave to the clutch arm with the original bracket and rodney's both distances are the same. The control arm has zero play (where it's supposed to be) and the rod is pushing the slave cylinder in about 3/8". (I couldn't get a pic of it)


Measurement of both rods. the top one is the old rod. Bottom is new. Both are the same length.

[This message has been edited by Soelasca (edited 07-09-2006).]

What I would try to do is compare the pedal throw with the push rod throw. If the clutch pedal is half way down do you get 3/16" throw? That may help diagnose this. There should be no reason to pull the trans because of a hydraulic problem. Have some one push the pedal and see if the action is the same on the push rod. In other words if the pedal is half way down and the push rod has not moved that would be helpful in diagnosing the problem.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

Sorry Rodney (and others).

I guess I didn't clarify myself. I'm pulling the drivetrain to readjust the position of the motor/tranny. I'm not pulling it to diagnoe this problem. I figured it would e easier to troubleshoot once it's out though.

Yes, you're correct. I should have someone push on the pedal in intervals and watch the movement of the slave. However, the way things are right now there's no way that the rod could ever push the 15/16" needed. The maximum travel the way it is set up is 3/8"

If you are SURE that the slave is bottoming out, then cutting another slave rod just might help you. You'll have quite a few tell you the length of the slave rod won't make a difference AND if the slave is not bottoming out, then they are correct. I had several issues with my clutch on the Isuzu 5 spd about a year ago. Cutting a new slave rod about 1/2" longer was one of the things I did. The clutch grabs higher than it ever did before for me after that. It doesn't cost you much at all to try it and it's takes about 1/2 a minute to swap the rods back out. Give it a shot.

P.S. Seems to me that 15/16" is the travel on an Isuzu slave. If memory serves me correctly, the Getrag slave is only 3/4" at full throw. I'll have to do more checking. That's why some have put Isuzu slaves on the Getrag setup. It's another way to get more slave motion with less pedal travel.

[edit]...

All clutch Master cylinders = 11/16"
Master cylinder banjo rod throw = 1.5"

Getrag 5sp slave diameter = 15/16"
Getrag 5sp slave rod throw = .75"

Muncie 4sp & Isuzu 5sp slave diameters = 13/16"
Muncie 4sp & Isuzu 5sp slave rod throw = 1"

Also, the rod I cut was about 3/4" longer than the original. You also might want to try bleed the slave again. I know it's a PITA, but your throw is WAY short.

[This message has been edited by RTNmsds (edited 07-09-2006).]

I forgot to mention that I'm also using Rodney's adjustable banjo on my master.

Some good info from RT though. I wonder if I don't have a slave from an 86 with a 4spd muncie. I ordered the slave through a GM dealer (who I won't be returning to) and ordered it by ordering a slave for an 86 GT 5spd (that's the year of car the tranny came from). I wonder if they didn't somehow get me one from a 4spd. From the info you just posted it would definitly cause a problem.

I also agree that a longer rod in this situation would definitly help with the troubleshooting process and may be the answer here. Even if the system still has air it would not change the fact that I won't be able to get the stroke out of the slave. I'm still putting my money on the linkage inside the bellhousing. Nothing is stock on this thing and I'd figure something is probably a little out of whack.

I think the first thing I'm going to do is pull the master and slave and measure them up to calculate exactly what type of travel I should be getting out of the slave in proportion to master cylinder travel (as Rodney mentioned earlier). Once I know that for certain and rebleed the system I can troubleshoot from there. I'm also going to cut myself a longer rod at that point and see how that affects things.

Does anybody have a GM part # of the slave cylinder I need for a getrag?

Sounds like your rod's too short. When it's in place, it should push the piston in 1.25 inches or so from the end of the slave. Don't sweat it, just about anything will work; a sawed-off bolt, a piece of allthread etc... As long as the rod pushes the piston in more than your expected travel, you should be fine.

that is a getrag slave. they are distinctly differrent. the isuzu/4speed ones have a plastic body.

if the slave cylinder is bottomed out, then there are 4 things that would fix/cause this: (on an all stock setup)
1. the rod is too short. (since all normal cars work, this is likely not the issue)
2. the exterior clutch arm on the tranny is mounted in the wrong spot on the fork arm.
3. the fork arm is bent internally
4. the throwout bearing is not the correct length.

I see an adapter plate in your picture. depending what that is for, I would think you would need a different throwout bearing.
the plate looks to be about 1" thick, and depending on your clutch components, I tend to think the throwout bearing is wrong.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 07-10-2006).]

The rod only pushes in the slave piston about 3/8" at rest. If it's true it should be pushing in about 1.25" then that's definitly not right.

The adapter plate is for the 350 conversion. There was no indication I'd need a different TO bearing in the kit, but I wouldn't doubt if you're correct. The arm only mounts in one position on the linkage on the outside of the tranny so I doubt that's the problem and IIRC nothing on the inside is really adjustable either.

yeah I was looking but I didn;t take any pics of the arm when I had mine apart. basically the slave is limited out mechanically before it can get the motion on the to bearing. I would check with whoever the adapter kit is from , f they are familiar with the clutch you have, and if it is known tat you need a differrent to bearing. extending the rod would probably get the slave back, but I have to wonder if that will cause binding with the fork and bearing at some point. alternatively, from looking at that bracket you have, if you turned it around the other way so the ofsett mount points are taken out of the picture, then that would give you another 3/4" compression on the slave cylinder.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: that is a getrag slave. they are distinctly differrent. the isuzu/4speed ones have a plastic body. if the slave cylinder is bottomed out, then there are 4 things that would fix/cause this: (on an all stock setup) 2. the exterior clutch arm on the tranny is mounted in the wrong spot on the fork arm. I see an adapter plate in your picture. depending what that is for, I would think you would need a different throwout bearing. the plate looks to be about 1" thick, and depending on your clutch components, I tend to think the throwout bearing is wrong.

I would look at this area and adjust or try another rod 3/4" longer.

You DO need a longer rod. On my SBC I tried first the stock rod and got your results. I used a longer one and problem solved. Just be carefull how long you make it. I did one too long and worked but it kept pushing the preassure plate a little when released and the clutch slipped in 5th gear load. I shortened it a little and problem was solved

Just to clarify a couple of points...

1) I forgot to tell you all my work was also on a SBC conversion. Diff is that mine has the Isuzu 5 spd, not the getrag.

2) The Isuzu slave gives MORE throw than the getrag slave. So if someone sold you the Isuzu slave instead of the getrag slave for your unit, that would give you more throw - not less. Therefore, the slave type is definately not causing the short throw problem.

For my custom made rod, I simply went to home depot & got some unthreaded rod. Cut it to length and ground down the ends a bit to round them off. I think the stock rod was actually metric (in diameter), so I had to go up just a tiny bit in diameter using standard American rod. Wasn't a problem, just a bit tighter getting it through the boot. I didn't use threaded rod simply because I thought the non-threaded variety would be a bit more sturdy.

Good luck & let us know how it all works out for you.

I'm not overly interested in going to the manufacturer of this kit. It would be a waste of effort.

I'm pretty confident the rod length is the problem. Thanks guys for your help. I'll definitly keep you posted under my build thread.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/056622.html

I have the exact same problem with my v8/ getrag, the slave is obvously bottoming out on mine. I am about to try the longer slave rod. I already went through a whole can of brake fluid and i know there is no air in the sytem. My question is how long should I make the rod.


Thanks
Msaby

If the piston in the slave is bottoming out on full extension then the clutch pedal would stop before it hits the floor. If it is bottoming out on full retraction you would see it by loosening the slave stud nuts and seeing where the cast lever sits. If it sits father back that where it was with the salve bolted on it is bottoming out in that direction. In other words if you go to tighten the nuts holding the salve on and the cast lever pushes in some you are partially releasing the clutch.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

You are correct the clutch pedal will not go to the floor. It feels like you hit a stop. The travelof the slave is only about 3/8 of an inch.

[This message has been edited by Msaby (edited 07-16-2006).]

quote Originally posted by RTNmsds: If you are SURE that the slave is bottoming out, then cutting another slave rod just might help you. You'll have quite a few tell you the length of the slave rod won't make a difference AND if the slave is not bottoming out, then they are correct. I had several issues with my clutch on the Isuzu 5 spd about a year ago. Cutting a new slave rod about 1/2" longer was one of the things I did. The clutch grabs higher than it ever did before for me after that. It doesn't cost you much at all to try it and it's takes about 1/2 a minute to swap the rods back out. Give it a shot. P.S. Seems to me that 15/16" is the travel on an Isuzu slave. If memory serves me correctly, the Getrag slave is only 3/4" at full throw. I'll have to do more checking. That's why some have put Isuzu slaves on the Getrag setup. It's another way to get more slave motion with less pedal travel. [edit]... All clutch Master cylinders = 11/16" Master cylinder banjo rod throw = 1.5" Getrag 5sp slave diameter = 15/16" Getrag 5sp slave rod throw = .75" Muncie 4sp & Isuzu 5sp slave diameters = 13/16" Muncie 4sp & Isuzu 5sp slave rod throw = 1" Also, the rod I cut was about 3/4" longer than the original. You also might want to try bleed the slave again. I know it's a PITA, but your throw is WAY short.

wat year an model could i yank one of these out of in a junk yard?
will it bolt to the stock slave mounts on the 5spd getrag?