How much stronger will it make the part that is Cryo treated I am thinking of doing my trany but dont want to wast my time if it wont make enough differance

Me 2. I wan tto cryo treat my 5 spd getrag in prep for modded 3800sc

Ask California Kid. He cryoed his backup getrag tans. Apparently it strengthens the cryoed parts 100%-400%. go to www.300below.com I thinks that's the place.

Looks great.
Does anybody know a rough price for a getrag?

Click on link in signature, and click page 7 for cost and details.

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Car History: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/025670.html

wow if it makes it that much stronger than there should be no problem with it handling High Hp

quote Originally posted by MclarenF1: Apparently it strengthens the cryoed parts 100%-400%.

If you believe this, I have a bridge (or two) to sell you.

Cryo treatment may (or may not) improve some specific properties of some specific metals for some specific purposes, but there's no way it will "strengthen" parts by a factor of 2x to 5x. If it did, ask yourself why GM doesn't already use it for everything.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: If it did, ask yourself why GM doesn't already use it for everything.

Because it cost money, capital investment, processing time, and their competitors aren't using it. Same can be said for nearly all Auto Manufacturers.

Lets think about why GM is not using it one they like to sell stuff like parts if they dont wear out then then dont sell as many new cars or parts to repair the cars pluse it cost money to do it if you have seen GM is about Bank Rupt they just struck a deal with there workers so they maybe could compete with the other car companies

If it made parts 5x stronger, then GM could sell a trans that was 5 times smaller and lighter to meet their specs. It would still wear out when they wanted it to, but GM (or any manufacturer) could spend less on materials and get a healthy increase in both MPG and performance due to decreasing the rotational weight of the powertrain.

You may get an increase of up to 10% (and that is extremely optimistic) with all of the cryo / shot-peening, etc you can throw at something, but by the time you've spent $1000 on your transmission, couldn't you have bought a better one? (i.e. ditch the isuzu box and get a getrag)

quote Originally posted by California Kid: [Why isn't GM already cryo-treating everything?] Because it cost money, capital investment, processing time, ...

I would readily accept your explanation in the context of a 10% increase in material properties (see below), but we were talking about something that it is claimed "strengthens the cryoed parts 100%-400%." The outlandish claims of some aftermarket vendors of cryogenic treatment tend to seriously discredit the entire subject.

The general consensus in the literature on cryo treatment is that such treatment can produce a "moderate improvement" (up to 15%) in wear resistance and/or hardness of tool steel alloys, but usually at the expense of significantly (up to 50%) decreased impact resistance. But there is trouble even here. Most experimental investigations have indeed demonstrated an increase in wear resistance (again, primarily in tool steels); but some studies have shown an accompanying increase in hardness, while others have not; most studies have demonstrated a marked decrease in impact resistance, but others have not. What general conclusions are we non-metallurgists to draw from all this? Such muddled results are hallmarks of a relatively new science that still doesn't completely understand what is (and is not) actually going on.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 06-29-2006).]

Well i will try it I dont think it will hurt the trany

While I too have my doubts about how much cryo treating actually helps, I really don't think that GM is really the best example we could use. I mean, they did cancel the Fiero right after they spent a couple million on the suspension alone even though it was still turning a profit. The same company that tried to cancel the Corvette and ruined the reputation of the Corvair, Fiero, and Vega with some of the most neglectful PR i have ever seen. I just can't accept the idea that cryo is total snake oil only because GM doesn't use it. I'm not saying its a conspiracy, I'm just saying that GM is far from being a well oiled pillar of efficiency.

I can tell you one thing..............Professional Race Teams aren't crazy, and they use it !!!

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-29-2006).]

Like i said if you follow GM's problems they are not finacialy able to do things like this due to they are trying to save money due to they are about bankrupt if you look at there earnings there not in good shape they just hade to make a deal with there worker to try and get them self in a better way then they are now and like said by California kid said race teams with alot of money do it and i think they would know more than most of us about it

Some interesting testimonial and reference on this subject.

From controlled thermal processing inc:
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Axles

We have found that axle on racing cars show significantly less wear and breakage. This is especially true where splines are involved.


Gears

We have run all sorts of gears for vehicles. The result is usually the same. Our favorite gear story involves a rag-tag racer I know running on a dirt track in Northern Illinois. He didn't have a whole lot of money to spend on the car he bought and when he changed the gears in the quick-change differential of the car, he would always find shavings from the gears in the grease. He showed us the gear set, and they were wearing severely. We treated the worn gear set for him and he raced the following weekend. He could tell something was up when he opened the gearbox. There were no shavings. We had virtually stopped the gear wear. This driver was so impressed with the potential savings due to fewer failed and worn parts that he subsequently had his entire engine treated, along with every gear set he had. The real interesting part of the story is the man had very little money to spend on the car and he chose to spend it on a process that would save him a bunch of money in the long run. In some ways, he is a lot smarter than many of business owners we have encountered.

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A very understandable book on metallurgy that delves into the cryo treatment aspect.
My brother ( a very overeducated mechanical engineer has this on his shelf )Thank you ASM

http://www.asminternational.org/Template.cfm?Section=Books tore&template=Ecommerce/ProductDisplay.cfm&ProductID=11068


o.k ...the book cost almost as much as the process. but I checked it out for free
My 2 cents.. a few hundred bucks for even a 20-30% improvement in durability, Priceless !!!!

But I would like to be reminded what parts CalKid sent for treatment and why he choose those particular parts. There seems to be some considerations about the type of stress the part will be subject to ( shear, torsional..etc) and what cryo helps and what it hurts.

[This message has been edited by 85GTV84FUN (edited 06-29-2006).]

Thanks for the info it is a help

quote Originally posted by 85GTV84FUN: But I would like to be reminded what parts CalKid sent for treatment and why he choose those particular parts.

All metal internals, except bearings, if I recall correctly weight of these parts was approx 53 lbs. I didn't have my alum case halfs treated for a couple of reasons, namely my trans is solid mounted along with added third support beam on cradle. Secondly, discussions with a few trans people, say the Getrag case is plenty strong. If metal gets between the gears in a Getrag, it's going to blow the case anyway, even if it is treated, due to tight tolerances within the Getrag. If you don't have the trans professionally inspected, treated, and "fully" rebuilt (in that order), then you might as well skip the cryo process. 300 Below freezes the parts for a few days, slowly brings them up to room temp., the they go in the Oven at 300 F for Stress Relieving Process. Call Rob at 300 BELOW, he'd be happy to answer questions (brake rotors is another great applicaton).

I haven't run this cryo'd trans yet, probably won't till next year when clutch change is due. The trans currently in my car in treated same as above, but with the "Ultrasonic Harden/Stress Relieve Process", which yields very similar results to the Cryo Process. I switched from the Ultrasonic Process to Cryo due to the Ultrasonic Company being in CA (farther to ship parts).

I would have had my Halfshaft Assemblies done as well, but I had a custom set fabricated, and guaranteed for as long as I own the car.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-29-2006).]

I read thru the site, and one thing they repeat is:
The one-time, irreversible treatment improves the entire structure, not just the surface, giving your engine stability only found previously in seasoned engines.

seasoning metal is an interesting phenomina, they often bury the part in plain ol dirt and leave there for a few years, in hot, cold. rain, then remover the part and machine it to spec.
I would think this cryo process would show the most benefit to new or very nearly new tranny components. the surface hardening has not had the chance to wear off, so it would respond better.

there are many advancemnts in metal treatments, most of them are relatively new, so often large companies will monitor them and may experiment with them and it could be years before you would see it in production

I used to work for a company that did heat treating of metal parts, we also did cryo treating of parts that we had heat treated.

A batch of parts were hardened and then placed into a large "cooler".

Best way I can describe the cooler is an insulated box with eight inch thick foam filled walls, the interior was about four feet square.

Once the cooler was two thirds full of parts that last third was packed with blocks of dry ice and the lid was put on.

The parts were then left in the cooler for twenty-four hours, we then removed them and placed them into a "Draw" oven at 350 degrees for four to six hours removed them from the oven and left them air cool.

After that they were done.

The metalurgist told me that cryo treating would increase the hardness of the metal on the Rockwell scale about one to three points and cause the molecules of the metal to squeeze together making the parts a little stronger.

From my experience if I was going to dis-assemble a transmission and get the gears cryo treated I would do it as described above at home in an igloo cooler and use my kitchen oven to Draw them when done.

My $0.02.

Steve

The guy that cryo treated mine does a lot for for V8 supercars and such. He said expect up to about 50% increase in strength.
Seeing I ended up changing to auto I sold that trans to a local guy with a Lambo replica.
He has been running it behind a twin turbo 3800 putting out 400 hp for about 6 months now without a problem.
So after cryo treating and a rebuild that trans seems to be taking the strain no problem.

Cryo only fixes problems with marginal heat treatment. It helps transform retained austenite to martensite. Which is good. If you heat treated it properly in the first place you would not have retained austenite. Furthermore there are only about 3 major alloys that require a cryo treatment. So you ask how do I know this I make valve and suspension springs. We have found that a low temp heat treat will transform retained austenite. the best thing is to not to have it in the first place. Shot peening and Nitriding are good because of the residual compressive stress on the surface. You will see a dramatic improvement in fatigue life with shot peening like 100x. this is in torsional stress. But there are very fre components that have to survive millions of cycles with applied stress in excess of 200,000 psi. most steel does not have a tensile strength this high. Is cryo good it is not bad. Myself I have nitrided and shot peened gears as well as rem polished them as a last step. Best thing to do is ask a metalurgist if there is a benefit. If there was we would be doing it to springs.