This isn’t really technical – but thought you might chuckle at how I solved my first “problem” with my Archie SBC. I’ve been running it for almost three weeks and have put about 3k Km on it in that time. Last night on my way back home (about 5k from my place) I noticed the voltage meter dropping it settled to about 10 volt and then the voltage came on. I made it home and parked the TAZ.

I checked the battery and then the engine bay. Took the grate off the driver side, removed the MAF and K&N filter. Looked down and saw the alternator and a bare pulley! Hmmm – shouldn’t the alternator be connected to the engine with a belt! DOH! Guess the belt broke on my ride home.

A quick call to Archie for the belt size as I know next to nothing about the specifics for the 350 sbc. I go into town and pick up a 38” 15/32 belt as instructed by Archie. I bought two for good measure.

I use the Fiero jack to lift up the car on the driver side to see what kind of job I have in front of me. I put on the first belt and tried to tighten the belt as per Archie’s instructions – but with nothing to leverage on. Fired the TAZ up and I was now charging – good. Asked a buddy to check the belt as I gunned the engine a little. Hey I warn you guys – I’m capable – but pretty much operate in the dark when it comes to mechanics. Once I get up the nerve I usually do a good job – even if it takes me two times.

My buddy waves me off and says the belt flopped all around when I revved it and told me the obvious – that I needed to tighten the belt much more. I work at my trailer on a gravel driveway – on a slope. Anyway – he suggested I use the second belt and try again and keep the first one as a spare as it “smoked” a little during the revving process. I loosened the alternator plate bolts and was able to put the second belt without jacking the car. Feeling blind I looped it and then tightened as best I could – knowing it wasn’t enough.

I figured I’d need to jack the car up high to get under it and then has someone tighten up the bolts as I pushed like hell against it. Usually when I get a bright idea like that I know I need to think about it more. I decided to sleep on it.

Today I was thinking of all sorts of contraptions to get pressure up on the plate or alternator. I thought I might be able to use some kind of jack to lift for me. I have a 1500HD Silverado and thought – I did – Hey it’s a crappy little jack – like a post on a 3” square base. It collapses down real small.





Off I go – position under the alternator and crank it up by hand. I used my hand to tighten it until I was sure the belt was tight. It worked like a dream!

Took me about 5 minutes to do by myself – without jacking the car and all those other associated dangers. The suspension is lowered so I slipped it under the car from the side and “woila”!

Attached are picks of the jack next to the side I used it on. Sorry I did not think about taking pictures while I did the job. I don’t know about you guys, but I’m going to the local junk yard to pull one out of scrapper. They are compact – give you a full 20” of rise and fit in tight spots……

[This message has been edited by DrCPU (edited 06-14-2006).]

Good Work.

The best part: I have a 93 Silverado and have the same jack.

ON my last V8 308 Replica, I actually used the cherry picker with a piece of cable and a hook. I attached it to the alternator to tension the belt and then tightened it up.

Kind of like the complete opposite but also kind of the same. (And this was 10 years ago). Great minds think alike.

Just make sure you don't make the belt tension too tight, You can wear out the alternator bearing in a short time if it's too tight. Great work.

Thanks for the alternate solutions. I was thinking of an arm that could attach to the bottom of the alternator bracket that would give me a leverage point from above.

I checked my belt last night and it was flipped over and running on the top (inside) edge of the alternator pulley. I redid the pulley again - and am watching it carefully. Looks like the alternator isn't perfectly lined up and if I have to guess - that the alternator is sticking out a little too much.

I checked it twice since the second fit and the belt is still set right. It seems to be running a little to the outside edge of the pulley - so that goes against what I said above.

I dont' have A/C so the belt is short and there is no tensioner. I beleive that when I gun the engine - took out a friend and showed him the power by running through 1st - 4th (all up to 5k rpm) - the belt get's tossed.

I've been driving "normal" today and no problems.

I think I need to look at putting a tensioner roller over the top of the belt. because the belt goes clockwise any slack due to higher stress is all along the top of the belt. I haven't been able to talk to Archie yet - but I think this should be a standard thing to add for a SBC like mine when the alternator pulley only feeds back to the engine.

If anyone else has any input I'd very much appreciate it.

I guess worsse comes to worse - that when I take it ot the track that I should expect to reset the alternator belt - or replace it. Not the best solution - but at least I can drive it - althought I must can't be aggressive with the throttle/rpm.

=8^(

Dave

I haven't heard Archie SBCers complaining about this so I guess this may be a particular issue with your car. Mine has A/C so I can easily put a big long screw driver underneath to leverage. I add a pipe extension and slide a cinder block to put tension on the bottom for a one man job to tight at the top So put A/C on that baby to make it easier

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Palm Beach Fieros
http://pbfieros.tripod.com

I put mine up on stands and have a tool that goes between the pullys and I just put a wrench on it. Takes about 20 minutes. I like the jack idea may have to look into that too.

Thanks again to all for the feedback. I spoke with Archie last night and he told me he does not see many GT's without A/C. The third pulley would make a big difference. My belt flipped again yesterday - even with careful use of rev/throttle. Archie is building up another SBC this weekend and it doesn't have A/C - so he'll get a fix and then I should be able to do the same. Looks like I'll have to jack the car for this fix, but I have lots of jacks, stands and cinder blocks =8^).

Dave

I dont have AC on my car and havent had any trouble out of the alt belt. I used as short a belt as I could. Turned out to be the same belt as one of the extras I had for my Duke car. I think it was the same belt, if it wasnt then its the same as the AC belt because those are the only belts I had.
How far out did you space the bracket from the head?

I got an extra belt and wrote down the size when I had the engine out of the car. When I did break a belt, I found it was going to be a PITA with the mounts. I found a real ez way without any wrenches. I just put it over the pullys except for the damper, then pushed it hard as I could get it on that and jumped the starter with screwdriver and belt popped right on. It only took a 1/2 second bump to turn it enough. Make sure you keep your hands out of the way of the belt........

Belt size for my setup is a 38.5" x 15/32 - part number is 15385.

I don't have a tensioner (idler arm) on it and I suspect this is the problem.

Archie said he was putting together another 350 SBC without air and that he'd have the fix for me - I hope today. As it is I'm sidelined because of the belt. Archie doesn't want me to play with the bolts too often as the heads on the SBC are alluminium. =8^(

I thought I should add to this post.

After replacing the belt with the "silverado lift" the belt still ended up turning itself upside down.

I decided to jack up the car and then work on the belt from underneath. I still used the silverado jack to push up on the alternaotr - but noticed it wasn't lifting it straight or past a pinch point. I ended up loosening both bols on the alternator plate and used my hands to then move the alternator and plate through it's full movement - or at least what I could using all the available clearance.

I ended up asking a buddy to get ready to tighten down the pivot and clamp bolts while I used enough pressure to move the assemble so the belt had about one inch of play on either side of the pulleys (at mid-point). I needed to use a crowbar to be able to get enough pressure applied between the alternator and the engine block. As stated, the silverado lift applied pressure directly from the ground up and I needed a mix of horizontal and vertical pressure to set things right.

Archie is manufacturing me an idler tensioner - and I'll put that on when I get it. The tensioner should be on the slack side (top side of belt) and that should fix things for good.

I've driven the TAZ for a couple of days since the last fix and the belt is staying put - thank GOD for small miracles.

I figure I'll need the tensioner the next time I run her up the drag strip (St-Thomas). I'll be doing that again for sure in August as it was a blast, and gave me more experience with the entire vehicle. The belt problems started (at least that's the first time it came off) after my drag strip runs..

Dave

Made a tensioner to go on my Archie kit. Just loosen up the mounting bolts and adjust the 1/4" tensioner bolt to adjust belt tension. My tensioner bracket is also part of the spacing needed to aline the belt. Told Archie he could have the idea.

quote Originally posted by Butter: Might want to check your motor mounts and strut bar closely. The clearance is pretty close on my car and I have had the crank pulley rub the frame rail when the mounts got a little loose.

Thanks for the tip!

Archie made a prototype for his cars and is just getting the material together to make one for me. I have lots of room as my battery is up front.

Dave

Just another quick note. This past Friday I "had" to gun the engine in 1st to slip into traffic - and the darned belt flipped over again! I sure hope I get the idler tensioner from Archie soon. Don't want to muck around with it anymore until I get the part from Archie... =8*(

Are you saying the belt turns it's self inside out??? But stays on the pulleys?
Just curious.
Good Luck
Gary

Hey CPU,

I remember using Archie's 2x4 block of wood and a long pry bar to get the correct tension while an assistant tightened the bolt.
(Yes the assistant wasn't my wife)

I set it to about 3/8" inch deflection halfway between pulleys without issues.
However, I am going to have to put a new one on shortly, so you've got me thinking about it...

If you're belt is flipping over, my uneducated guess would be that the alignment of the two pulleys is not perfect rather than the tension, but if Archie's boys watched his video, they would have covered that already.

Will the tensioner pulley bolt through the A/C bracket?
When you get it, let me know.

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1986 Fiero2m8 (LT1 NX / 4T60 Roadster Build)
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/071642.html

Question for all that are quickly able to change the belt: have you notched the frame for clearance?
I thought that if you didn't notch it, you had to lower the cradle to change the belt?

Yeah - the belt flips over and runs on the top edge (inside lip) of the alternator pulley. Funny isn't it. I did check the aligment and it seemed OK. The belt is quite short as the pulleys are less than 20" appart.

Archie is shipping me the fix part with pics and instructions - when I get them I'll post an update.

quote Originally posted by GKDINC: Are you saying the belt turns it's self inside out??? But stays on the pulleys? Just curious. Good Luck Gary

Can you gas it again and have it flip right side up I haven't touched my alternator belt in 2 years, sbc with no a/c. Keep us posted
Thanks Gary
I see the problem now, your outsides in, your downsides up, this makes you upside down and inside out.

[This message has been edited by GKDINC (edited 06-27-2006).]

I've been doing V-8 conversions & kits for many years, most of those have been air conditioned. Maybe 10 that we've built in house have been non-A/C cars & I haven't had this belt rolling over thing on any of them so far. As you've read here very few of the Non A/C cars built by customers hve had that problem.

However, this situation that you have has presented it'self to me as the perfect opportunity to find a cure in case it happens to anyone else. Also as it turns out, we were also putting together another customer car that gave us a chance to fit up an Idler before we assembled his car with the A/C compressor. Also another guy from WI had bought a V-8 car from a customer of mine. It was originally put together without using the A/C by the original customer. The new owner had the car at my place to install a newer engine into it, so it made an ideal test car for the idler fitting.

So as you can see all the stars were aligned just right to convince me that this was the time to design this "A/C Delete Idler".

Dave, earlier today I sent this part out to you with several pictures to help you in mounting it.



Here it is mounted to the engine for the car we were putting together last week.







We installed one on this test car a couple of days ago.......





I'm pretty sure this is going to work out good for you. I think you can do most of the installation from underneath the car, but we installed the one in the "test car" from the top & thru the wheel well.

Anyone interested in purchasing one of these can give me a call or send an EMail.

Archie

As I'm half French and half Welsh it's no wonder I've got my upsides down and inside out! =8^o

Also, physics - as they apply - are different in Canada than they are in the US. This must be why I can get the belt to flip and stay on - like a mexican jumping bean. I also don't know why anyone flips coins - as they always land on their edge up here!. hehehe...

The new "A/C Delete" option looks like a perfect fix for me... Much thanks Archie!

I have a four ton 4pt Jack - a three ton 4pt Jack - the Silverado jack, the Fiero Jack and several two and three ton stands. Will jack up the car enough to slip my slender frame underneath! (HEY WHERE'S ALL THE LAUGHTER COMING FROM?)

PJB has offered me with help to use a friends garage in London - and will probalby take care of this mid next week - as I've scheduled next week off from work (Yahooo!).

I figured it would not hurt to take a couple of pics of the magic flipping belt... Here they are-


This first image is from the rear bottom facing the pulley on the crank - notice the ribbed outside !


This second pic shows the belt from above - about mid point - note the ribs!


This last one is a good shot from above and shows the belt riding on the upper inside edge of the alternator pulley!

I have tried gunning it again - to flip it over =8^) but it stays on the inside edge until I gues it moves to the left and then gets flinged off. It will run as is for quite some time. It takes a 13 second pass at the strip to throw it right off!

Archie's fix should be here in the next day or two - so I'll provide an update when I get it installed. Will take pics of the process as well.

Man thats the cats ass I am gonna be calling for one. nice I am glad you made one +1

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85 GT 355 SBC .220 Dome TRW Forged Pistons 197cc Canfield Aluminum Heads 72cc combustion 205/160 valves Victor Jr Intake
Quick Fuel 750 dp Q Series Carb Solid Roller 295 Duration 630 Lift Cam 106 lobe sep All Comp Valvetrain All MSD Igntion All transfered through a 4 speed Manual Trans
Estimated BHP MORE THAN YOU HAVE WONT ESTIMATE PEOPLE GET JELOUS

quote Originally posted by FIERO1985: Man thats the cats ass I am gonna be calling for one. nice I am glad you made one +1

Wish I could take the credit - but the design and manufacturing of the fix is Archie's!

I made something similar to that and have been running it for 2 years with no trouble. I made it adjustable and use it to tighten the belt.





I have replaced the pulley with a smooth plastic idler pulley. I have also replaced the home-brew water pump setup you see with an electric pump. The pulley setup worked (after replacing the zinc lower pulley with a larger steel pulley) but was going to get in the way of the wider tires I was planning to install.

Not as polished as Archie's, but it works. Redneck engineering- there's nothing like it!

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1986 SE 350 V8

Ya gotta love the ingenuity! I really like the way you can adjust it - by turning - to add tension. Very cool and nothin redneck about it. Kudos.

I bet idea like your will go to improve Archie's and other's idea!

My SBC has an electric water pump as well - or alt least it's mounted right on top of the crank without pulleys and belt.

I also had problems with the belt flipping over.(no a/c) I had a friend rev the engine while I watched the belt. What I noticed was that the alternator bracket was flexing and the alternator was moving back and forth. I added a bracket from the back side of the alt to one of the unused SBC engine mount holes on the side of the block. Kind of "L" shaped and slotted for the alt. side.

Almost three years now, no prob. I think the a/c pulley helps stabilize the belt and alt

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1988 Coupe
327 v8

quote Originally posted by tripple8: I also had problems with the belt flipping over.(no a/c) I had a friend rev the engine while I watched the belt. What I noticed was that the alternator bracket was flexing and the alternator was moving back and forth. I added a bracket from the back side of the alt to one of the unused SBC engine mount holes on the side of the block. Kind of "L" shaped and slotted for the alt. side. Almost three years now, no prob. I think the a/c pulley helps stabilize the belt and alt

Thanks for the feedback! If the idler pulley does not fix this then I'll mimic what you've done. I guess this might be a problem with big torque engines - as the alternator is getting its source directly from the crank - through the belt.... The alternator mounting plate is billet alluminium - so maybe a stronger material - with appropriate powder coating would be better in the long haul. Just my 0.02 worth.

I don't know much about mechanics - so your input makes a lot of sense to me. If readers think I'm wrong or nuts - then they are probably right!!

Hey Dave,

Let me know how the idler works out - it looks like it bolts to the front engine mount with longer bolts.
Are you still using the same length belt, with the alternator bracket closer to the balancer?

Ryan

[This message has been edited by Fiero2m8 (edited 07-08-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Fiero2m8: Hey Dave, Let me know how the idler works out - it looks like it bolts to the front engine mount with longer bolts. Are you still using the same length belt, with the alternator bracket closer to the balancer? Ryan

The pulley took me about 15 minutes to install. Turns out this has not fixed the problem yet. NoW the belts are coming off even faster!
I'll get back to this post after my next round of problem solving. I really need to get under the car to see what is going on at higher RPM.

From a quick check, the pulleys seem to be aligned - but I need to do this best from right under the car - instead of on my back - squeasing under the car when it's jacked up!

I would be looking at alignment, and also the pulley on the altenator to make sure it was bent or installed incorrectly.
Just a thought.
Good Luck
Gary

quote Originally posted by DrCPU: I really need to get under the car to see what is going on at higher RPM.

Dont let the belt come off and hit you in the face, safty glasses would be a good idea.

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Dont let the belt come off and hit you in the face, safty glasses would be a good idea.

Funny you guys should mention this .. as I had a buddy rev the engine and I checked it out from underneath (last night). Used my hand/fingers to shield eyes - and peeked between fingers (Poor man safety glasses - not all that smart! Might be good for a Darwin Award?)

I bought a COG Over belt yesterday part 15388 and I followed the directions on the belt. 1) set tension, run for 3 to 5 mins and 2) rest tension.

The alignment is almost perfect between pulleys. I did have a little harmonic vibration on the lower part of the belt after I set the tension the first time (during idle). After I set the tension the second time (I guess the belt was "seated" properly) the vibrations on the lower belt went away.

I drove the car in to work this morning and the belt is still on. Will check it tonight when I get home and make sure the assembly is still tight (will see if the alternator plate adjustment bolts are loosening up - or not).

Dave

If that belt doesn't work, you might want to try a narrower belt (it will sit deeper in the groove) or maybe run a little less tension. Hope you get it worked out.

If you need any info on my redneck tensioner, let me know...

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1986 SE 350 V8

Hopefully that's works out - I put my belt on yesterday in this manner by myself!

I picked up the new belt 1/2" x 38" long.
After slipping it on I discovered a new way to install and tension it by yourself with a pry bar between the alternator and A/C portion of front motor mount without having to jack the car up or work from underneath!
I didn't even have to hold the pry bar, just wedged in a crescent wrench while I tightened the alternator bracket with a socket set:

I dropped by the parts supplier I usually use - and wouldn't ya know - they went out of business - or moved - with no forwarding address. I stopped at another parts place - but they only had 15/32" and 17/32" - nothing thinner than 15/32. If this belt does not work then I need to find a 13/32". Will need to find out where my regular guys moved to.

I wouldn't want to go too narrow as it would start moving inside the pulley - from side to side.

For now I'll do the ostrich trick (head in the sand and hope for the best), that the latest install works.

Thanks for the input - I appreciate it!

Dave

I know this is old, but what ever happened to this? I've never been thrilled with the tensioning of my alternator belt either. Any updates?

-Tim

quote Originally posted by TD37: I know this is old, but what ever happened to this? I've never been thrilled with the tensioning of my alternator belt either. Any updates? -Tim

Probably should have posted something sooner...

I installed Archie's mid-pulley - it's not a tensioner as it's not spring loaded - it does make it a lot easier to remove slack in the system. Part of the SBC set-up design is such that ther isn't much room between the back of the alternator and the last spark plug. Without the pulley, the alternator was touching the last plug and I could not get enough tension on the belt. That was the first part of the problem. The second was that the alternator - from Car Quest - was a POS.

After I put the pulley on I was able to tighten the belt (overtighten it) and I burned the POS alternator in about 100 miles. The alternator wasn't well balanced as well. I ended up getting a complete rebuild from NAPA. It cost me big bucks - but as you know - you usually get what you pay for....

I put the new alternator on and set the belt with about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch of play - mid return length. The system has been running fine since then. I also use the Top Cog belt rather than the regular belt. I use part 15388 instead of 15385.

The car about 5K miles on it with this new set-up - and everything is fine. Archie thinks I could go without the pulley - but I'd still have trouble getting the belt tight enough with that rear spark plug.

I'm happy with things as they stand - and the belt does not look like it's over worn with the extra pulley.

Dave

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