Ok Folks, I know that this has been talked about Many times (MANY MANY TIMES - All I can find is garbage threads that go no-where) But I am putting a 3.1 V6 from a '92 (I think... I need to check on this) with already mated 5spd Getrag Tranmission. The engine is definatly a 3.1 MPFI with coil-pack ignition.

I know that I was already told the answers to some of my questions by some of my friends, but honestly I forget and need re-assurance.

Now I am not starting this thread to hear "Why don't you use a _______ instead?!" - the reason is simply because I don't have the money for anything else. My old man has his own machine shop setup, we are hobbist mechanics, and we lack no ambition - only money. So unless you have something better for me to stick in (For Free, that you'll deliver to me in Nova Scotia) please just read on and offer advice

After looking into what information I could gather from this website's forum and from talking with some local Fiero gear-heads I have come to the following assumptions:

It SHOULD be possible (and not that hard to boot). The block on my 3.1 SHOULD be the same as the 2.8- meaning I SHOULD be able to use the same engine mounts. I will have to build my own shifter linkage adaptor simular to a kit I am told a company is making. I will also have to do my own custom exhaust (not a problem) mess with cooling (not a problem) and do some re-wiring (again, not a problem) I will likely have to build some custom shifter linkage components as well. Please feel free to add anything you can think of to this post.

My Fiero is currently a 2.5 Automatic - however the wiring harness inside the car is for a standard. I will need to hook up the Clutch pedal with master and slave cylinders as well as install Shifter Linkage and the stick for the 5spd.

Here is my status thus far:

- Engine is out of Beretta - it has been sitting the past year and a bit - though started and driven around occasionally. A year before the previous owners stopped driving it there was a head-gasket job done and a new clutch installed. The engine ran great - though check engine light would come on at idle - this is likely due to the 2 year old gas the engine was running on.The engine currently does not have a Catylatic Converter - nor will one likely be installed when this whole system is setup in the Fiero.

- The wiring harness to connect to ECU is the same plug type as that of the wiring harness that connects to ECU in Fiero (this being the plug that goes through the fire-wall) and there is PLENTY of slack in the harness to connect to the firewall location in the Fiero - this means a lot less messing around with the wiring harness than I origionally thought.

Motor Mounts:
- I have been told that there is one motor mount that should be the same for both my 4cyl and the V6 - the front engine mount.
- I have another engine mount though at this time I am not 100% Where it is for.
- I am unsure of just how many mounts there are on a V6 and what will be necessary.
- My engine currently has a dog-bone installed at the bottom front of the engine. The quality of the bushings in the dog-bone are FAR from good - I am undescided if I want to use this style of dog-bone mounted to the cradle or go with some sort of mount at the back of the engine in the stock location for the 2.5 currently in my Fiero. Suggestions?

Shifter Linkage:
- I have 2 Fieros which were 4spds, I am told that all Fiero Manual transmissions Share one cable and the other is unique. I have a cable for a Getrag Transmission as well as the cables from the two other cars.
- I have (well did anyways, will have to check again) access to a stock Getrag transmission to look at to get an idea how to fabricate linkages for the transmission.

Axels:
- I can remember being told once before - but what axels do I need to use? Can I use axels from Beretta or do I need them from a Fiero 5spd? or any manual Fiero?

Clutch:
- The clutch for this particular transmission is hydraulic - I assume I will have to make and run my own lines from the clutch pedal directly to the clutch on the transmission. I seem to recall seeing a master and slave setup on one Fiero but the transmission itself was a manual clutch (I think - please feel free to correct me)

Fuel Pump:
- I am pretty sure my fuel pump for my 4 cylinder will not be enough for the MPFI V6 - however I still have the whole Beretta - Will I be able to use the fuel pump from this car in my Fiero tank?


Serpentine Belt/Power Steering:
- The Beretta had power steering, the Fiero does not. Suggestions what I should do with the pump? and if I get rid of it, how to route the belt?

Exhaust:
- Currently I plan to use the stock manifolds and stock exhaust exit from the back of the engine - if there is clearence for this I hope to create a Y at the outlet from the engine, go into 2 small mufflers, and curve around and exit out the back having dual Exhaust like a GT. Anyone know for sure if the exhaust will clear the trunk?

These are the only questions I can think of for now. Thanks for reading and any help you can provide.

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Webpage

[This message has been edited by Dewie (edited 05-23-2006).]

Here are a few pictures for those interested: Click Here

[This message has been edited by Dewie (edited 05-23-2006).]

I helped do this swap for a friend a while back.....

The hardest part was trying to figure out the pulleys, and upper engine mounting.

......the alternator in the stock 3.1 position meant we had to cut deep into the deck lid for clearance...... this weakend the lid and eventually led to stress cracks visible from the outside..... we didn't use an upper strut mount at first.....which led to the other mounts breaking from the engine rocking back and forth.

We had to change all the mounts and deck lid and re-think the setup.....


.....we ended up moving the alternator to the bottom front (where the stock 3.1 AC compressor used to be). Although this ruled out the possiblity of AC in the future.... it did allow us to install an upper strut mount bracket where the alternator used to be. (this bracket is found on Lumina sedans relocated to the opposite side of the engine facing rearwards instead of forward)..... this allowed us to use the stock fiero dogbone.

We never did remove the powersteering pump because we still haven't found a suitable idler pulley that could be mounted correctly. Maybe we will just leave it there and run some lines up front to a powersteering rack for power steering.

[This message has been edited by v8fiero400 (edited 05-24-2006).]

Unfortunatly I have to say this swap would be VERY easy if you started with a manual fiero first, basicly plug and play. I am mostly sure that you can get the mounts for a 87gt fiero, as they had the 2.8 mated with the 5 speed getrag, and also the clutch pedal off of a getrag fiero will work for what you want to do and you can bypass making your own setup. Rodney sells a conversion kit so you can use that getrag out of the beretta in a fiero setup, but thats asuming you are going to use the shift assembly from a getrag fiero. I see that you have other fieros with manuals in them? If so then most of the clutch setup will work, from the pedal to the master cylinder, and the line will all work with the getgrag trans, and there is a small possiblity that the slave cylinder from the beretta will work with the fiero setup. ( can anyone confirm that?)

You can use axles from any manual fiero

a fuel pump change would be a very good idea, quite an argument here on what pump is best to use. Try using the search function here on the fourm to find the best fuel pump for you.

You are going to need to rewire the beretta ECU into your fiero, and there is really no "quick" fix other than rewiring the c205 and c500 connectors on the fiero to the "body harness" side of the beretta wiring. That may not mean much to you now, but It will later

Its quite a job, and you may find it is going to cost a bit more than you expected. my AIM name is sc10wolf if you use it.

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Check out my 3800 swap thread and lend your advice!

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/072877.html

I'll be doind a similar swap and to address the alternator clearance issue I'm going to explore the idea and very likely modify the engine and transmission mounts by cutting them in two in an effort to shorten them and then re-weld them back together unless I can alternative mounts to accomplish the same thing. This modification may be able to lower the engine & trans enough (~1" hopefully) to eliminate making a notch in the decklid which I certainly do not want to do and if successful it will also lower the center of gravity a little more. Since you have access to a machine shop you can make your own mounts as opposed to this. Otherwise you'll have to reinforce the decklid in some way to counter the notch or in addition to stress cracking you will also have a bow upward in the decklid at that notch location.

No A/C in Florida is not an option in a daily driver during the summer.

This car does not have A/C and it will not likely get it. I don't recall running accross any posts from the past that stated the alternator wouldn't clear - this is new to me and good to know. I Personally don't mind modifying a deck-lid as I happen to have several...

Keep the ideas rolling folks! Thanks thus far

Look at what I did for the upper engine support, its tubular, with a pair of brackets welded to the strut tower. The bracket had 4 dogbone bushings on it, two for the front of the engine, two on the ends by the strut towers. It had a 4T60, That little car boogied!

Fierobsessed is that a yay or a nay on the needed decklid clearance for the alternator?

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Fierobsessed is that a yay or a nay on the needed decklid clearance for the alternator?

Look up.........and you can see the big gash cut into the deck lid beam........

That is a major eye sore for this conversion if the alternator is left in the stock position.

I don't believe the alternator on the newer engines sits up as high as yours appears to in the picture, I would have to check again to make sure. On my engine the alternator is just above the valve cover which has an indentation in it but I believe it is still to close despite that. I will not know for sure until it's in the car.

I just checked by placing the alternator on the engine, it sits directly above the cylinder head so it's moved a little to the left relative to the 3.1L location but it still appears there will be a clearance issue though maybe not as much, the bracket design is so efficient and easily accessable that I'll try to lower the engine and tranny a little in an attempt to avoid notching the deck, if that doesn't do it I'll make sure appropriate reinforcement is installed.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-26-2006).]

Hey--why don't you use a _______ instead?!

Hey great! Thanks for the pictures! Do you have any more?

My old man had the idea this evening that since we have to fix the subframes in the Fiero anyways, why not try to re-create the Beretta engine bay - motor mounts and all - inside the Fiero. Its and idea we will have to measure and look into - but it may help solve some problems as to what to do for a dog-bone etc.

As for the Alternator -eww - that DOES look rough. I wonder if using the Beretta mounts would allow the engine to be lower thus eliminating the need to chop the deck lid like that.

The mounts on the Beretta are very likely to be the same height as the Fieros due to the axle hub centerline location. I still plan to try to modify them to lower the drive train assembly as mentioned previously however I have to keep in mind that deviation from the horizontal plain plus high power makes axles vulnerable. In other words in my case I would have to stiffen the rear suspension so under hard acceleration the car doesn't squat far enough to cause an axle angle greater than it is subjected to already, since shortened mounts will give me a pre angle on the axles by having the inboard joints sitting a little lower than the outboard joints.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: I don't believe the alternator on the newer engines sits up as high as yours appears to in the picture, I would have to check again to make sure. On my engine the alternator is just above the valve cover which has an indentation in it but I believe it is still to close despite that. I will not know for sure until it's in the car.

I tend to agree. Looking at my picture taken of the engine Shown here it looks like the alternator sits a couple of inches lower.

[This message has been edited by Dewie (edited 05-26-2006).]

I was referring to the 3500 Dewie but from the looks of your engine I don't thing you'll have any problem at all unless it's with the strut tower.

If you look at the twin on the left just above and to the left of the left upper idler pulley you can see the alternator bracket and proximity to the intake manifold which the alternator does sit higher than. I don't have my camera available for an actual picture with the alternator sitting in position but it appears yours sits lower than mine will.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-26-2006).]

wow - I would LOVE to have a newer engine to put in... Some day - this whole poor College Student thing had better be worth it...

I'm in the same boat with you, I just used my resources, I have lots of neat stuff for projects left over from when I had to drop everything for school, since I wasn't using it I opened up an account on Ebay and put it up for sale, and when I found these two 3500 very low mileage engines up for sale I grabbed them. I'll have enough time before school starts up to replace the engine in my car with one of these.

3400 is in the new Malibu's isn't it? If so I really like that engine - quite quick and very well suited for one of our cars I wish you the best of luck with it!

No luck necessary about one month from now will do. The 3400 and 3500 are used in the Malibu and a few others, they are quickly becoming the most common V6 available I believe.

Hey, if you are not going to use an AC compressor, then I see no reason to leave the alternator and have to cut into the hood.......... mount it low (where the AC compressor was)


here is another idea....... use a stock 2.8 timing cover, water pump and brackets.........it has been done....

quote Originally posted by v8fiero400: I helped do this swap for a friend a while back..... The hardest part was trying to figure out the pulleys, and upper engine mounting. ......the alternator in the stock 3.1 position meant we had to cut deep into the deck lid for clearance...... this weakend the lid and eventually led to stress cracks visible from the outside..... we didn't use an upper strut mount at first.....which led to the other mounts breaking from the engine rocking back and forth. We had to change all the mounts and deck lid and re-think the setup..... .....we ended up moving the alternator to the bottom front (where the stock 3.1 AC compressor used to be). Although this ruled out the possiblity of AC in the future.... it did allow us to install an upper strut mount bracket where the alternator used to be. (this bracket is found on Lumina sedans relocated to the opposite side of the engine facing rearwards instead of forward)..... this allowed us to use the stock fiero dogbone. We never did remove the powersteering pump because we still haven't found a suitable idler pulley that could be mounted correctly. Maybe we will just leave it there and run some lines up front to a powersteering rack for power steering.

On my 3300 I removed the P/S pump and used one of the mounting holes to which I installed a ribbed idler pully and measured a belt, mine was 100".

That's a very nice install and an easy to swap alternator since all 3 bolts are easy to get to and why I don't want to move mine. I thought about going to the Fiero accessory system for my setup for all of a few seconds, then I realized how much better the single belt system is making the alternator and belt easy to change. Another very effective method to help with decklid clearance would be to place about a quarter to half inch shim on the rear cradle pads which wouldn't change the cars ride height since the frame of the car rests on the strut towers and then make up for the rest of the clearance with a mount modification.

Do you have any pictures with a better view of the notch in the decklid?

I couldn't tell in either of the pictures but the fuel rail on the 3500 can be turned around so that the inlet line is located at the front of the engine the way it is positioned originally in the Fiero, I don't know how well that works for the 3400 because the rails are designed differently but it wasn't a problem to do on the 3500.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-27-2006).]

Quoted by V8fiero400

quote here is another idea....... use a stock 2.8 timing cover, water pump and brackets.........it has been done....

Can you use the 2.8 dampener and crank pullys?

bump

Done a few of these swaps not my choice as best swap but not the worst either. The accessory holes are moved in the heads which is a pain but workable. Use the stock Fiero V6 alt mount and add an extra pulley to the harmonic ballancer to run just the alt. Use the bolt holes in the balancer which the pulley puller tool would use. Can't remember which pulley I used think it was off of an Astro van.

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Signature compliments of F-I-E-R-O
2003 3800SC series II powered
www.photosled.com/showgallery.php/cat/631

quote Originally posted by FIEROFLYER: Done a few of these swaps not my choice as best swap but not the worst either. The accessory holes are moved in the heads which is a pain but workable. Use the stock Fiero V6 alt mount and add an extra pulley to the harmonic ballancer to run just the alt. Use the bolt holes in the balancer which the pulley puller tool would use. Can't remember which pulley I used think it was off of an Astro van.

Which engine are you talking about? the 3.1? (there have been many engines mentioned in this post)

Yes the 3.1 last one was out of a 91 Tempest before that a 90 Cavalier and before that a 3100 out of a 95 Grand Am GT. The Fiero V6 mounts work just need to redrill or elongate a few holes. Also is a good idea to add in a rear coolant over flow jug one that seals with a rad cap and feed it from the top of the thermostat and return to a "T" in the heater hose to keep air from building in the cooling system. Dan

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Signature compliments of F-I-E-R-O
2003 3800SC series II powered
www.photosled.com/showgallery.php/cat/631

Thanks for the tips! What was the wiring like to do?

I just came across a 3100 in a wrecked Grand Am. Automatic tho. Price is right, I am thinking this may be the way to go in my 84, just to get it on the road. Any issues with a auto computer? What clutch and flywheel?

Kepp this thread alive! I'm wanting to swap in a 3.1 in my Fiero. From what I know, you can use a flywheel from an 88 and later 2.8 5 speed Beretta. It needs to be neutrally balanced, not external. Im still trying to figure out what kind of clutch to use.

Personally I am using the 5spd that is already attatched to my 3.1 - I will just use Fiero axels and mounts.

Once you pull the long extension shaft/intermediate shaft thing out of the Beretta trans (the 17" long shaft that goes across the backside of the engine and is attached at the trans with three bolts), you can use the stock Fiero manual transmission axles.

Oh, and 94 3100 here and FWIW we went with a low alt mount in place of the A/C compressor (which in Michigan is for wusses)

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 09-19-2006).]

Dewie, where did you find a 3.1 with a 5 speed? I didn't think any 3.1 came with a manual from the factory.

I was given a Baretta - and I'm 90% sure its like that from the factory - as the people I got it from bought it new... the combo works great!

quote Originally posted by toadson: Dewie, where did you find a 3.1 with a 5 speed? I didn't think any 3.1 came with a manual from the factory.

1990 GPs, 90-94 Cavs, and 90-93 Berettas all came with 5 speed 3.1s