I really did not know where to start to search so I had to start a new thread. I have read threads on handling, but unable to locate them now. So as the title states I am almost scared to drive this car. I have an 88 gt. v6 auto (not that the engine or tranny matters)

I hypothesize that I probably need poly all around with new shocks all around. I am not sure about the shocks, though, because the car is not bouncy. What happens is this, the car will vere or pull into ruts rather violently if I am not paying attention. It somehow knows where a rut is and twist the steering to stay in the rut and then hunt from side to side, which may make me look like I am drunk or have some stupid tendancies from the cars behind me.

A list of fixes would be appreciated. Those of you who have completely rebuilt your front end are the ones who's brains I need to pick. WHat are the first recommendations I need to take care of.

In advance, thank you for your help.
Galen

Mine was doing this pretty badly, I have since gotten new struts and shocks, replaced inner tie rod on pass side front, replaced front wheel bearings and some of the front with poly and an alignment.. I havent done the control arms yet, but the rest of the front is done. Mine still feels a little wierd going down the road. I'm beginning to think it maybe in the steering rack, since all my wheels are nice and tight when I check them for play.

I will be also watching this thread for more information.

It might help ---to save some bucks in the long run, you could take it to have it aligned , if front end parts are worn out ,they will let you know in quick order, then you can buy/replace the parts actually needed yourself, instead of trying to guess, then take it back afterwards for a 4 wheel alignment. Hope this helps some...

ALIGNMENT...ALIGNMENT........ALIGNMENT!!! my 87 gt was doing this after a complete suspension rebuild, new tires and an alignment. i went back and had it done again because it was very darty over bumps and ruts and it got a little better. a few days after that i could visibly see that one front wheel was straight and one was toed out...thats bad when you can see it!! i took it to pep boys and sat right there and watched them. the toe was way out and after that, it drives like a champ!! just make sure you find someone who knows these finicky lil cars...try a pontiac dealer or just ask around who the best alignment guy is....YOU WILL BE SURPRISED AT THE DIFFERENCE

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Keith
Topsail Beach,NC
86&87 Fiero GT
86&96 Corvette
04 Harley Davidson Softail
73 Lotus Europa Twin Cam
86 Lotus Turbo Esprit

"He who dies with the most toys wins!!!"

ALIGNMENT...ALIGNMENT........ALIGNMENT!!! DITO!

What size tires do you have front and rear?

Ball joints, tie rods, and bad alignment are the leading culprits for the handling you describe. You can check these fairly easily by yourself. Put your hands at the 9:00 and 3:00 position and try and wiggle the tire with the car on the ground. If there is any play it is going to be a tie rod problem. With the car up on jackstands, put your hands at the 12:00 and 6:00 position and try to wiggle the tire. Any play will probably be ball joints (the other possibility is wheel bearings). An alignment shop will do this for you as well. Make sure you discuss what the payment is going to be beforehand. If they do the diagnosis and you take the car home to do the work before bringing it back to be aligned. Some places will just bill for the alignment, others will charge for both.

David

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His Fiero: 1984 2M4 Coupe

Her Fiero: 1984 2M4 Convertible

My 88 before the dohc swap had 159,000 miles on the chassis. Steering rack worn out, some bad front ball joints, both front wheel bearing assemblys bad to the point they were loose and allowed the rotor to rub on the pad & caliper not to mention bad tires and shocks. Leting any of it go without repairing or replacing was not an option. Expensive? Yes. Safe now at high speed? As far as this nut goes behind the wheel yes. Just shocks and tires alone where 60% of the wander and instability. The wheel bearings and alignment took car of most of the rest. Check all of the front end out especially if you are looking at high miles.

Make sure you also check your tire pressure. I have noticed that when my tires are low in pressure the car will tend to follow ruts and grooves more easily. I have low profile tires and it is hard to see if they are low in pressure just by looking at them. You have to actually use a pressure gauge to tell for sure if they are low. This condition also makes for heavier steering, reduced gas mileage, and accelerated wear on the tires.

yes, like others above - ALIGNMENT.
and as for parts: struts & rear a-arm bushings

now, the thing with ruts and heavily worn asphalt roads - its never going to fully go away. one of the joys of having fully independant rear suspension: bumpsteer
the unevenness in the road causes bumpsteer, which waggles the rear wheels around. new struts will cut down on that ALOT. and, if you want to cut it down some more, stiffer springs. anything that reduces up/down travel also reduces the bumpsteer.

All your replies are very apreciated, thank you. Here are the things that are right with the car. recent alignement with a computerized facility and new upper and lower ball joints. I also put in poly bushing for the rear trailing control arms and this helped with high speed viration.

Now for the bad. Tires are wearing on the same side (outside wall pass. side & inner wall driver side). don't know about the steering rack, but I have my suspicions. Well of course I probably need to replace all rubber bushings.

How important is it to replace shocks and springs. The bounce test ie. push down on the car and see how many times it bounces up and down till it stops, passes. So shocks are okay. I know they are old so do I still need to replace them, aside from the fact that they are almost 20yrs old.

Keep the suggestions and personal experiences coming. any and all information is welcome
Galen

Edit: forgot to answer all the questions - the tires on the front are factory recomended.

[This message has been edited by stalen88GT (edited 03-18-2006).]

rodney asked about tire size.my experience with wide tires is that the wider the tire, the more the car will follow every rut and bump in the road.look at original equipment tire size and compare to what you have now.

quote Originally posted by wftb: rodney asked about tire size.my experience with wide tires is that the wider the tire, the more the car will follow every rut and bump in the road.look at original equipment tire size and compare to what you have now.

What was the stock tire size for an 86 gt?

quote stalen88GT: Now for the bad. Tires are wearing on the same side (outside wall pass. side & inner wall driver side). don't know about the steering rack, but I have my suspicions.

What's your rear measurements. Sounds like toe out instead of toe in. Also check camber on the front wheels. There are threads that tell you how to do this.

quote Originally posted by stalen88GT: How important is it to replace shocks and springs. The bounce test ie. push down on the car and see how many times it bounces up and down till it stops, passes. So shocks are okay. I know they are old so do I still need to replace them, aside from the fact that they are almost 20yrs old.

the rear struts are pretty important. if they are even a little sloppy, you get wheel travel, which makes bumpsteer, which makes the rear squirrely - especially on uneven pavement.

also - re-torque the rear axle nuts

according to the door sticker info ,stock tire tire size is p205r60-15 front / p215r60-15 rear .which is a lot wider than i thought it would be.

Bump to get any more info. Thanks for all the suggestions helpful hints to date

Galen

I've dealt with a few evil handling Fieros over the years and here are the things I look for first.

TIRES

The Fiero is particular about tires. When they start getting thin the handling tends to go away in a hurry. I suspect it's because the suspension "works" the tires harder than the average family car. IOW, you have a fairly lightweight car with relatively wide tires (even stock) in comparison to your garden variety Taurus, Impala, or Bonneville. This means there is less surface pressure in PSI on the tires so when things go bad, it's very noticeable. It reminds me a lot of a pickup truck that has had 7.50X15 mud and snows all it's life and you're used to driving that, then putting some wide wheels and tires on it. The thing just feels unstable due to the higher flotation.

TOE

The Fiero MUST HAVE tight rear tie rods and the toe must be adjusted properly with the thrust angle set to zero. For whatever reason, I've seen a number of cars with the toe measuring fine between the tires, but the thrust angle off. This makes the car dog track down the highway and will also cause it to change direction when you apply power (or back off it). Neither of these are a good thing. If the tie rod ends are loose it can make it feel extremely squirrely. In the front, if the tie rods are loose you feel it through the wheel so while it's still squirrelly, you kind of have some feedback when it happens. In the back, it just kind of takes off on you. This is also not a good thing.

CAMBER

Except for tire wear on the highway, this really isn't as critical in how the car FEELS for normal driving. If it's off, it will cause the tires to wear quickly and you'll see it first on the inside or outside of the tires. To just get a rough idea, put a 2' level against the tire, holding it up and down. If it shows level, or tilted in very slightly at the top, then you can normally rule out camber as a source of your handling oddities.

CASTER

Unless you've had the front end apart, or something broken, the caster stays pretty much the same throughout the cars life as it takes front end disassembly (or some pretty severe breakage) to change it. It also has a limited range and again, for normal driving, you're not going to feel it get "squirrelly" within it's normal adjustment range.

BALL JOINTS

You have two on each side on the front and one on each side on the back. The front ones will generally make themselves known to be bad by making odd noises, particularly when turning, before you really notice that there is something amiss. The back, OTOH, can get loose and act like loose tie rod ends before they make a sound. Jack the rear of the car up and support it on stands. Now move your jack under one wheel and jack it up until you see it start to take a little pressure off the stand. Now take a bar and try to move the lower control arm around. Try to move it up, down, and side to side. It should not move. If it does, it needs to be replaced. The fronts can be checked by jacking up the car with the jack under the lower control arm and then trying to move the top arm up and down with a bar. If you see motion in there, they are too lose.

The idea in both cases is to take the spring pressure off the ball joints. Easy on the front, a little harder in the back. Be careful and don't let the car fall on you by getting so aggressive in checking them with a bar.

WHEEL BEARINGS

Last, don't forget the wheel bearings, front and rear. In either case, get the weight of the car off the tires/wheels and grab them at the top and bottom. Try to move them in and out, rocking them. If you feel much play at all, they should be re-packed or replaced in front and replaced in the rear. Now it's normal to have just a little bit of play, but not very much. How do I define not very much? Good question, and I don't really have an answer other than if you're not comfortable with it it's probably too much. I suspect that a lot of our cars are going to have rear wheel bearing failures in the next two or three years due to age and mileage. It's also going to show up on the engine swaps due to the way we are more heavily loading the rear bearings. Fortunately they're still readily available.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by stalen88GT: Bump to get any more info. Thanks for all the suggestions helpful hints to date Galen

well, what have you actually changed so far?
any of the above stuff help any?
have you got new struts and an alignment yet?
still the same tires? new a-arm bushings? new rear tie-rod ends?

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1985 Fiero SE - Plain Red V6 Coupe
3.1 Crane272 MSD 4.10-4spd DarthChip Borla
D.A.M.M. - Drunks Against Mad Mothers

I seem to remember Franis T , my-self & some other`s ran into a problem **after an alignment**, in my case they didn`t tighten down the strut bolts , the car was scary as He^^...

As far as an alignment goes, you pretty much do have to watch the folks doing it. I paid for a 4-wheel alignment at VIP once. Maybe they aligned them all, but they only tightened down the front end, cause as soon as I got on the road, the back two wheels were dangerously out of alignment and kept changing position. I almost ended up in a ditch because one of the rear wheels went from ~straight to definately not straight. I, of course, complained and they fixed it while I watched.

But there's a horror story. Just take the half hour and watch them do it.

-Shawn

Now this I believe. I look for an alignment shop with a computerized machine and an old guy running it that appears comfortable with it. Those are hard to find. (I also like to find one that while the old guy is doing it there's a youngish guy helping him. That youngish guy will be the old guy some day. )

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 3800superfast: I seem to remember Franis T , my-self & some other`s ran into a problem **after an alignment**, in my case they didn`t tighten down the strut bolts , the car was scary as He^^...

Hi all

This question is half related to this topic!

My mechanic has managed to fit an 84-87 lower ball joint to my 88 fiero. Anyone know how different these parts are and whether this is going to have an adverse affect on handling?

thanks in advance

andy

Hi Andy , Welcome to the Forum, I wasn`t aware that you could do tha safley--but I`m not a big suspension expert, hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in with a answer for you, but it seems I have read that 88`s need and have different parts up front...