I'm looking to buy a Fiero. Haven't found THE car yet, but looking (anybody got any good deals? Want 4cyl manual). Anyway, I know that in 1988 they changed the suspension. Is there a place to learn about these differences? I like to know what I am looking at, and right now, I don't. I have heard that the 88 is "better", but is it really? Are T-tops really a desirable option? How many miles are too many miles? I've seen Fiero's advertised with almost no miles (which does not necessarily mean a good car...how was it stored etc) to LOTS of miles (300k) which doesn't necessarily mean bad. So, any words of wisdom will be welcome! I'm looking for information, advice, opinions. And if you have the car for sale that I can't live without, let me know that, too.

Welcome to the Club.
My first Fiero was an 85 Sports Coupe. It was a lot of fun for an auto.
What are you looking to do with it? If you just want an all round fun car to drive everyday then dont over look the early years.
New rubber bushings and balljoints can be installed for under $200 if you know how to work on your car and it will handle pretty good.
T-Tops do bring up the value of the car but I wouldnt pass up a nice car if it didnt have them.
Just dont jump on the first one you see.

I now drive an 86SE V6 4 speed Motor has 15000 miles and car has 160000 miles on it, I'm also working on an 86GT V8 5 speed. (I got it bad) with 5000 miles on a rebuild and 160000 miles on the car. Rubber is the first thing to go, then the head lights but once you know what to fix they are all pretty much the same (well not the 88)

If you were in Florida I would tell you to contact CoolBlue about his coupe.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 10-21-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Welcome to the Club. My first Fiero was an 85 Sports Coupe. It was a lot of fun for an auto. What are you looking to do with it? If you just want an all round fun car to drive everyday then dont over look the early years. New rubber bushings and balljoints can be installed for under $200 if you know how to work on your car and it will handle pretty good. T-Tops do bring up the value of the car but I wouldnt pass up a nice car if it didnt have them. Just dont jump on the first one you see. I now drive an 86SE V6 4 speed Motor has 15000 miles and car has 160000 miles on it, I'm also working on an 86GT V8 5 speed. (I got it bad) with 5000 miles on a rebuild and 160000 miles on the car. Rubber is the first thing to go, then the head lights but once you know what to fix they are all pretty much the same (well not the 88) If you were in Florida I would tell you to contact CoolBlue about his coupe.

Well, tell me about CoolBlue coupe. Shipping is an option. I've owned Fieros in the past (long ago), and am looking as a fun driver. I'm retiring next year and want a toy car, and have decided a Fiero is the way to go.

Hey Mr Dakota

I have an 88 5speed 2.5 for sale that I just spent $2000 building an 87 engine for it. I went with the 87 to get away from the 88 oil pump. Engine has about 200 miles on it now and is on it's second oil change. I started with a reman shortblock bored .030 which already had new pistons, rings, bearings. They also turned and polished the crank and checked the rods. I did a few things to get a little more HP out of it but it still gets in the 22 -24 MPG range in town so nothing radical. Never hit the road in it so I have no idea what it gets for highway mileage, but it should be awesome. I ported and polished the head and decked it .020, polished all the valves and the bowls, match ported the intake, higher lift cam, Also has new clutch, rebuilt both headlights, had the alternator rebuilt, starter was not that old so I left it alone. It has a new AC compressor mounted but I never got around to hooking it up so it still has the rubber plugs in it. I did install new pressure switches before I mounted it. New water pump, oil pump, oil pan, cam gears, roller lifters, push rods and valve springs. New MSD plug wires, new crank position sensor and new oil sending unit. I installed new brake pads on the rear. Cradle's in great shape, no rust. I'm sure there is a lot I'm forgetting as I spent 3 months on this project.

There are still a few details left like drivers seat has a tear in the bottom seat area, front brake pads should be changed, AC still need to be hooked up, it needs a lower ball joint, maybe both, not sure. Other than that I can't think of anything, may be one or two small details.

Interior is in nice condition other than the seat bottom. All the gauges and controls work. Body is straight, Paints decent, maybe 7-8 outta 10. It's white with grey interior.

This car would be an easy restore for somebody now as I have done the most of the hard work. Only reason I'm getting rid of it is that I got an 86 v-6 4 speed with a turbo that's now taking up all my time........and money.

There is a bad pic (camera phone) of it right after i put the motor in but before I put the front back on the ground.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/malex/fiero88.jpg

And here is the cradle just before I put it back in.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/malex/engine.jpg

If your interested, i can get some better pics.

[This message has been edited by srat110 (edited 10-22-2005).]

As for the differences in the 88...
The front suspension was redesigned with better geometry. Less scrub radius produces less kickback at the wheel when you hit holes in the road, and such. The travel is also increased, and the ride softened up a bit.
The geometry of the earlier rear suspension is such that if you get on the brakes hard, and the rear of the car raises up, it will cause the rear wheels to toe out. This can cause an ugly situation called drop-throttle oversteer. If you over-cook a curve, and lift off the gas and/or nail the brakes, there is a good possibility that the rear of the car will come around. Not fun. The 88 rear suspension was redesigned to eliminate the toe changes as the wheel moved through the range of its travel. It also is supposed to give a little softer ride.
The 88 brakes were also redesigned to use larger, vented discs. Helped to prevent fade.

T-tops are kind of nice if that's what you want. I find a sunroof to be much more useful because you can reach back and prop the rear of it open for ventilation. T-tops are either in or out.
You'll pay a premium for T-tops, and repair parts are scarce to non-existant. (Read "expensive".) This is especially true for the rubber weather seals, although there is one person who is looking at having those seals reproduced. We are waiting to see how that pans out.

Mileage is a crapshoot. I've seen some cars that were completely shot at less than 100K, and some others that were still going strong at more than 200K. It all depends on how it was maintained, more than anything.

The main thing (IMO) is to make sure the frame is not rusted or severely bent from an accident. Everything else can be fixed or replaced.
Pull back the carpet on the sides of the trunk. Look at the side wall, about 3-6" down from the top.
This is where the side rail is welded to the trunk compartment, and one of the first places where rust will begin to show up. Also check the large tin plugs in the floor pans. If they're in good shape, chances are the rest of the floor pan is, too.

Just about all the body panels can be swapped between different cars and years (with the exception of the 84 and early 85 door panels.)

CoolBlue's coupe is prety cool, from what I've seen here. I actually thought about buying it, at one point. Just didn't really need it enough to justify the purchase.

Having said all that...
If I was looking for a 4 cylinder Fiero, I would definitely hold out for an 88 5 speed. Mostly because I own two 88s now, and know how to work on them, and have a few spare parts tucked away.
And if you get bored with the 4 cylinder, they make excellent engine swap candidates. (See sig.)

Happy hunting, and welcome to our obsession!

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Raydar
88 3.4 coupe...........

Praise the Lowered!
Read Nealz Nuze!

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-22-2005).]

many choices! pick up the best: 88 (v6)gt 5 speed, fully loaded.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/026883.html
Here is a link to his car. As far as I know he still has it. We are expecting some bad weather so I would not expect a fast reply form him.
Its and 87 but in nice shape.

Lots of GREAT information. I think I do want a stick. I'm actually waffling between the 4 and 6 engine, though. Not sure exactly what will serve me best. The looking process is interesting. I looked at an 88 coupe, ttop with 114k miles yesterday. It was at a local dealer and it was the worst piece of junk I've ever seen. I don't even think it could be used as a parts car. The dash was even loose! I didn't find one good part anywhere. When I talked to the dealer over the phone, I was told the car was in "nice" condition. So, the dealer lied to me. I guess that shouldn't surprise me.

So, I'll keep on looking. If nothing turns up within the next week or so, I'll probably stop my looking until next spring. But, keep the info coming. I'm slowly re-learning stuff I had forgotten about the Fiero.

You asked if an 88 is better?

I had an 84 SE (which died in a crash last year, but kept me safe and alive) and now drive an 88 GT. The 88 is really the superior car. My 84 steered like a 1948 International Harvester Farm tractor and gave my arms a real workout in-town and when parallel parking and such. A real pain ! In comparison, the 88's steering feels like power steering. And the 84's problem with drop-throttle oversteer is real and -- as far as I am concerned -- is really dangerous. The rear end of my 84 did spin out a couple of times. Doing uncontrolled 360s at highway speeds in the 84 SE back in 86 almost got me killed. But I've never had that problem with my 88.

Now you gotta understand that I was young and foolish 20 years ago in that 84 SE and so some of my 84 SE experiences have to do with changes in me. Nonetheless, if you have the choice between the first model year and the last model year, go for the 88.

quote Originally posted by mr_dakota: Lots of GREAT information. I think I do want a stick. I'm actually waffling between the 4 and 6 engine, though.

The 6 is a lot more fun. If you have a 5 speed you can even get decent mileage because of the overdrive.
(My 3.4 automatic only gets between 17 and 24, but that's with no overdrive, and of course, my driving style.)
I bought a 4 after having owned a V6 many years ago. It just didn't cut it. I was looking for something bigger to swap into it almost immediately.
If fuel mileage is an absolute priority, a 4 cylinder 5 speed is probably what you want, though some of the recent drivetrain swaps are doing nearly as well.

quote Originally posted by atjxl: You asked if an 88 is better? ...if you have the choice between the first model year and the last model year, go for the 88.

84s are generally a bit "difficult". GM learned a lot from "1st year growing pains" that the 84 experienced. ALL of the wiring is 84 specific. If you ever want to swap in a V6 at a later date, don't start with an 84, as the bulkhead connectors will be in the way. All other years were available with either a 4 or a V6, so swaps are much easier.
The easiest cars to find mechanical parts for will be the 84 (as long as it's not electrical stuff) through the 87. Most of the mechanical parts are interchangeable.

88 brake and suspension stuff is year-specific, and is generally not used on *any* other car, although other stuff can be adapted.
That's not a show stopper, however. It just costs a little more money to fix if you break anything suspension-related. Nothing is actually unobtainable. Repair parts (ball joints, brake rotors and calipers, etc) are readily available. Also there is always someone parting out a car who is willing to sell other parts.
To illustrate... I had more trouble finding a right front fender with good matching paint than I have ever had buying 88 suspension or brake parts.

Something that bears mentioning is that incremental improvements were made each year.

85s got the V6 as an option. They also got a 5 speed with the 4 cylinder. The V6 still got the 4 speed.
Late 86s got a five speed (instead of a 4 speed) for the V6. The 86 "fastback" GT also appeared.
87s got a ~2 gallon increase in gas tank size (from ~10 to ~12 gallons) and a more reliable headlight system that replaced a pile of relays with a solid state control module. The actuators also became much easier and cheaper to rebuild.
88s got all the brake and suspension stuff already mentioned.

Then there are all the cosmetic changes made, over the years.

Sorry. Didn't mean to be so long winded.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-22-2005).]

One car not mentioned is the 84 Indy. I know that it only had a 4 speed, but what can you tell me about the optional gearing? How does the "performace" gearing compare to the standard? I assume performance is better, but is it noticable? How about mileage? Does it kill mileage? I've seen a few Indy's for sale. As I'm looking for a 4/5, would I be happy with a 4/4? Does the fact it is an Indy make it more desirable? You know, to those who "know"? I know the Indy seemed to come with most of the options. I've always believed that options are important.

Around town the 4.10 4spd gets quite good gas mileage (probably better than my 85 4cyl 5spd) and is quite lively. I'm sure this would quickly change on the highway. And yes, the 88s are wonderful cars to drive, however parts are more challenging to find for them (ie front wheel bearings). On the other hand, they are really great cars to drive

I don't have time to read all this so sorry if I'm repreating things...

The primary differences between 88 and 87 back is the 88 suspension is a one off. It was only available in 88. Yes it has some technical advantages but it's also got major service problems. The main one being you can't get many parts for it or your choices for parts are severely limited.

Unless you have an 88 in extremely good condition you are better off with an earlier year. Many suspension parts for 88 are no longer available or only available thru FieroWh(St)ore. If you need suspension bushings for example you'll have to use polyurethane whether or not you want it as Moog and others don't offer parts for 88.

Even if you buy an earlier one... Assume you will have to install new parts in the suspension. Difference is that Moog offers all the bushings and ball joints for these. (McQuay-Norris and others may also offer some all the needed parts.)

You'll also want new shocks and struts. Shocks often get replaced at least once but the odds are high the struts will still be original equipment. The OE struts all sucked to start with and any current product you can buy will be far better. I went with Gabriel premium Gas front and rear with excelent results. Various people swear by KYB and Koni but I have a hard time believing they are really all that much better than the top of the line from Monroe or Gabriel, which are both pretty easy to come by for decent prices.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurasic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

all i can tell you is to keep your eyes open and the right one will come along. i bought my 84 4 speed this spring with 52k on it and nearly perfect paint. replaced a front brake caliper, front brakes, k and n air filter and a tune up. i've driven it all summer without any problems.
for a long time i kept reading about headlight problems, ecm's, modules, etc..thinking my car was going to die on me at any moment. finally i just started driving and enjoying the car. it may not handle like an 88, may not have the power of a v6 and doesn't have the uniqueness of a t-top..but it is paid for and i love it. good hunting. Jeremy

Thank you one and all. When I first thought about getting back into a Fiero, I wasn't sure how much info I would be able to find. As it turns out, this is a great website, and there are very many good Fiero sites to investigate. Seems that parts shouldn't be too much of a problem, either (unless you have an 88, it seems, then they are a bit harder to find parts for). I have a number of Fieros in mind, and hope to make a decision soon. I'll let you all know what I finally get.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes by. It is nice to know that Fiero owners/drivers are a good group.

i have an 87 4cyl 5 speed i'm probably going to be selling in about a month if your interested, its a bit of a drive, but its a nice car with new eibach springs and kyb shock and struts,let me know if your interested

-Stephen

quote Originally posted by mr_dakota: Seems that parts shouldn't be too much of a problem, either (unless you have an 88, it seems, then they are a bit harder to find parts for)

It's not at all hard to find parts for 88s, there are just less options.
I rebuilt my entire 88 suspension a few years ago with $500 and even added coilovers and stiffer springs and rear swaybar (included in the price).

In a nutshell:

Pre-1987: 4 speed transmission, troublesome headlight system, 10.2 gallon gas tank

1987: 5 speed transmission, improved headlight system, 11.3 gallon gas tank

1988: 1987 improvements + Lotus-deisgned front suspension

The 1988s drive like a go-kart on smooth roads, but require special suspension parts (front wheel bearing assemblies) that are limited in number and much more expensive than the other years. The steering rack is also different.

T-tops are VERY cool, but again require special parts that are limted or no longer available new.

I wouldn't be afraid to buy whatever you want, just know what you're letting yourself in for. Chances are good that you can come up with what you need on this forum.

if you wanna see exactly what is different for the model years, look through the catalogue at Fiero Store. Here's a link to their suspension section and yu can see that the pars for the 1988s have their own section:

http://www.secureleadercom.com/fsstore/default.asp?bodystyle=1&topdeptnumber=327

Fiero Store bought out the inventory from GM when GM discontinued the fiero so, unless otherwise noted, their parts are original GM.

You might also experiment with the SEARCH feature of this forum - there's some good info here and some of the members have done some AMAZING stuff .

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 10-25-2005).]

Well, I've come to a decision. I'm buying an Indy. Gave it a lot of thought, got a lot of input from all of you, and in balance, I think the Indy will be a cool, fun car to drive and play with.

Are there any pdf files here of owner manuals or service manuals? I was into Vettes a while back, and there were always these kind of things available. I tried searching, but found nothing. I'm a nut for information. I also saw a reference for something called "Indy Owners Support Thread". Did that ever happen?

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: 1988: 1987 improvements + Lotus-deisgned front suspension

I thought that rumor was dead already. It's not Lotus-designed.

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: By the way, Steve .. I don't doubt you a bit, but I just paid over $400 for a pair of front wheel bearing assemblies for my 88 Formula and the inner tie rod ends have now been discontinued (but are still available at Fiero Store). Maybe I need to know some of the people you know 'cause this stuff is slowly falling by the wayside ...

Yeah, with new wheel bearings it will get expensive. I had some used low mileage ones, so my cost didnt include those. The eBearing hubs are crap anyway unless you just drive casually. People on the Fiero Racing List have experienced failures with only a single race. They appear to be packed with inferior grease (replacing it with high temp synthetic grease would probably help a lot) but some also seperated due to reasons beside bearing failure. Low mile used ones seem to be the way to go until someone comes up with a decent aftermarket replacement. If the rest of the suspension has been taken care of (so as to reduce significant wheel/hub vibration) the original bearings should last over 100,000 miles.
Inner tie rod ends are also available from Rodney Dickman.