well heres the deal, its been happing for the last 3 months, the pedal goes to the floor/brake light comes on and very little stopping is happing, unless i vigeriously pump the brakes before pressing them hard for a stop, they loose pressure very quickly!!, heres what ive done in the corse of 3 months..

replaced..
all calipers
all rotors
all pads
2 master brake cylenders
replaced old fluid/w new 2x

i got a really good $$deal on the parts so i replaced them all hoping to fix the problem, i bench bleeded the cylender, used all proper steps to bleed the brakes, i did that 4 different times, and no help, im really stuck, i gave the car to NTB and they couldent find a problem

the only things left are booster, rubber brake lines and porportining valve

any body have a clue as to whats going on??, i work full time and drive busy freeways to work every day, i dont want smash up my beautiful car.

and btw, if you remember my, ive reciently added a fiero side scoop, which looks cool, and the underdrive pully set from the fiero store (which i didnt really at all notice a hp gain from)

If you replaced the linings & calipers why did you reuse the old brake lines? The standard brake lines have a habit of deteriorating inside to the point of where the lines become check valves. IMO OEM brake lines are junk. I suggest that you replace those lines with a set of stainless steel tefon lined braided brake lines by Russell. Those lines look nice, perform great, are D.O.T legal and will last a very long time.

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

how much $$ are the russles? (IMO who ses the brake lines?), its like having a sweet looking cromed head gasket lol? so your thinking brake lines huh? ive looked at autozone and prices are all under but near 20$ per line (different part numbers for each line..they look all the same to me????) for ex: driver front line is 4,99 where as pass rear line is 17.99$, they seriosly look like they are all universal to each other., why the different part numbers?, and i get a preety sweet deal through Orileys auto parts, like a 60+% discount on anything i want... and 160$ rear caliper cost me 28,16$ brand new...il think deep about the lines...i really hope that will work.

...any one needs new brakes let me know, well work a deal out.

You think you could help me out? I'm 18 and I have an '86 Fiero GT Fastback which is my daily driver... my brakes have no pressure what so ever until it's to the floor... I need help ASAP.

Most Fiero brake problems are caused by the rear calipers being defective or out of adjustment. Symptoms can mimic a bad master cylinder with the pedal going to near the floor and still barely stopping.

If the caliper emergency brake levers aren’t normally resting on the return stops and/or they move more than 1/4" from the stop when operated, they are either not adjusted properly or the caliper is shot.

The adjustment is not made on the cables (the cables should hardly ever require adjustment). See Ogre’s Cave or the archives here for caliper e-lever adjustment procedure.

I've replaced my calipers, still, crappy braking...

It doesn't matter that you replaced the rear calipers.... You've still got to check the clearance using the info in my cave. Don't assume that replacement calipers are any good or that they will properly self adjust. If there is too much rear pad clearance then you will have problems like low pedal.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurasic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

See http://www.carquest.com/techbulletins/brakes/T1008.pdf

i really didnt make any sence of the procedures given in that link, and the pic of the rear discs didnt look like anything ive ever seen, and btw my (rear) caliper brake pad (near the piston) slaps around, like i can move the pads 1/4 inch between the piston and the rotor by hand, but the pads on the other side of the rotor are touching, and ive also noticed that when e-brake is applied and relised, and driver caliper doesnt relese the lever all the way, only goes about 55% back when relised, whats the directions for adjusting for an idiot to understand? "the idiot guide to brake adjustments)

btw when i apply my ebrake both rear caliper arms with the spring and cable completly close and squish spring, but yet i can still turn wheels by hand with ease. weird?

The 88 looks a bit different but the procedure is the same. Take the cables loose but leave the springs on. Then use the spring tension to snap the levers back against the stop. Do that until each lever only moves 1/4" to lock the rotor. After doing that on both sides, reconnect the cables. If the cables pull the levers off the stops, readjust the cable till the levers just touch the stops.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 07-10-2005).]

A misadjusted set of calipers will cause the pedal to drop as noted but as to replacing the brake lines, unless there is fluid loss visible somewhere at the brake lines or at the master or proportioning valve then there is still system integrity and the lines don't need to be replaced. Sure, stainless lines are great and give a much firmer pedal especially when used in high performance driving situations but since the kid ain't got the cash to spare and the part ain't broke, he don't need to fix it. If you can't get the adjusters to self adjust, you can pull the caliper and rotate the piston manually to close the gap between the pads and the rotor. There is actually a tool made to put into the notched parts of the piston so as to be able to spin it. Or, if very, very careful, a pair of good channel lock pliers will hold the piston tha spin it too.
I am going under the assumption that you have checked for fluid loss and there is none present. If you get fluid loss then you have a leak. The last resort, pay someone to fix it for you. Big O has a great warranty policy.

G

I'm a complete idiot when it comes to brakes... I know engines inside and out, I know cooling systems, oils systems... inside and out, but, nothing about brakes, and I need to fix this prob. ASAP... I just got off of work, drove home, and I almost ran 2 stop lights cause I could barely stop...

I think it may be just air in the system, because my springs look like they should, but my E-brake don't work, and it never has... but the thing with the brakes is something new. GAAAAHHHH!!!

As Dennis said, replace the rubber lines or at lease check them. Remove the lines from the calipers and have someone push on the peddle. Brake fluid should flow freely. Actually, if they are the origional lines, just replace them because they will likely go bad sooner or latter. You may want to get steel lines while you're at it.

so what do you mean by "spinning the piston", spin it? clock wise? counter? what will it do? this sounds like the easy way out, im still iffy about snapping the lever a few times. i think my levers are to stiff to free flow and snap back

if to say i did adjust the rear calipers properly, would it take care of the e-brake problem and the no brakes problem?

thanks for all the help guys!

quote if to say i did adjust the rear calipers properly, would it take care of the e-brake problem and the no brakes problem?

YES

The Car Quest procedure is the easiest way to adjust the caliper. Try holding the lever with Vise-Grip pliers and work it back and forth rapidly. If that doesn’t free the internal parts so that spring pressure will return the lever to the stop, you need to use the procedure described in Ogre’s Cave.

and now my fiero is doing the same thing, soooooo it looks like wednesday is adjust the rear caliper day :P

------------------
~Wolf
95 camaro, black t top, 3.4 five speed
slowly working an a 3.4 DOHC swap

87 Fiero 2.5, 5 speed,stock (for now)

quote Originally posted by Wolf_lq1: and now my fiero is doing the same thing, soooooo it looks like wednesday is adjust the rear caliper day :P

Is your E-brake functiong? Just ratchet the handle a bit and they SHOULD adjust on their own.

quote Originally posted by Indiana_resto_guy: Is your E-brake functiong? Just ratchet the handle a bit and they SHOULD adjust on their own.

no, its not hooked up, I'll try that first. then we'll adj. adams and see if that helps his brakes

I know it is hard, if you don't have your car...but it is harder still, to have no life, no car, and if you survive the imminent accident, it will be even harder to deal with any death(s)/ injuries you might inflict on others.Your brakes are not only for your safety, but that of the others on the roads.You will also have a LOT less money, and free time, available than now.It will be cheaper to get them fixed professionally..beg or borrow the money if you must. But don't drive it any more.Until you know they are good. I can imagine your post on here, if somebody rammed your pride and joy,totally ruining it, because they were foolish enough to drive their vehicle without brakes....Just look at things from others' point of view. I am sure you will understand my meaning , and not get angry, if you do.You have invested money to make it go faster, and look prettier, but you have not seemed to take your brake problem as seriously. Please, don't risk your, or anybody else's, life any longer,

------------------
fierofetish.PFF'S self-confessed Snowbird!!

Responsibilty: the solution for our World's Dilemmas..

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 07-13-2005).]

ok me and wolf adjusted our rear calipers and his are now fine and work great, thanks for the help!, but mine on the other hand didnt do a darn thing!, i ratcheted the e-brake levers like 100 times each side and no movement in the pads or caliper, the caliper doesnt even lock up when levers are moved! , whats my next step?? im dealing with 88' brakes btw.

thanks guys!

and i have to drive major highways back and forth to work every day with people who love to stomp their brakes in front of me, this is getting out of hand., seems like all i have is like 30% front brakes and like 5% rear brake power, and thats after i pump them up to make the brake light go out.

Take the cable off the lever, remove the spring from the lever, remove the nut on the lever and rotate the lever down as far as it will go, remove the lever without moving the screw and put it back on up near the stop then rotate it down again...do this until it will hold the rotor with both pads up tight against the rotor. put the lever back on as close to the stop as you can get it and put the nut back on, do not over tighten the nut....do the same to the other side and check your brakes...if good put the cable and springs back on and adjust the cable until the lever just moves off the stops....

quote Originally posted by 88 forumla: i really didnt make any sence of the procedures given in that link, and the pic of the rear discs didnt look like anything ive ever seen, and btw my (rear) caliper brake pad (near the piston) slaps around, like i can move the pads 1/4 inch between the piston and the rotor by hand, but the pads on the other side of the rotor are touching, and ive also noticed that when e-brake is applied and relised, and driver caliper doesnt relese the lever all the way, only goes about 55% back when relised, whats the directions for adjusting for an idiot to understand? "the idiot guide to brake adjustments) btw when i apply my ebrake both rear caliper arms with the spring and cable completly close and squish spring, but yet i can still turn wheels by hand with ease. weird?

From this description, I would say that the sliders on the caliper are sticking, preventing the caliper from releasing the outboard brake pad from the rotor.The piston is having to travel twice the distance, to press the piston-side brake pad against the rotor. It may also be, that the piston is rusted onto the adjusting screw, which passes right into the piston. The piston should be locked onto the two little raised parts on the inboard brake pad, which stops the piston rotating with the adjuster, allowing the piston to be repositioned further down the adjuster screw,keeping it in contact with the brake pad backing plate and taking up any space left by wear of the pads.If the two locking points are not sitting in the backing plate, the piston rotates with the adjuster screw, when the e brake is applied, and so the piston is not pushed further out. I suggest pushing some hardwood block between the rotor and the disc pad, ensuring the two locking points are klined up, and then try adjusting the brakes with the ebrake action. If,when you pull on the ebrake, the piston rotates still, you either haven't got the dimples lined up. or the adjustor is rusted inside the piston.

Nick

------------------
fierofetish.PFF'S self-confessed Snowbird!!

Responsibilty: the solution for our World's Dilemmas..

quote Originally posted by spark1: See http://www.carquest.com/techbulletins/brakes/T1008.pdf

This is real good info. the only thing they did not mention was when you rachet the lever tight You must stick a screw driver in the caliper and hold the brakes tight against the rotor or you will never get it adjusted. One way to do it inside the car is to pull the e-brake lever then put your foot on the brake pedal with force, then release the e- brake lever. Repeat this procedure several times until you get 4 to 5 clicks on the e-brake lever then you should be ok.
Don

well there is a huge gap between the rear pads and rotor, and i have to pump the **** out of the brakes to build up enough pressure for 1 good stop....every good stop requires that..is that related to my retarded rear pad gap or are thoes 2 problems completly not related to one another?

Ok from what you have said. the caliper piston is not comming out to its full position. There should be no slack in the pad and caliper when properly adjusted. you also need to measurer the thickness of the rotor and see if it has been turned down too much. The first thing I would do is return those rear caliper's and get another set. If all fails then you need to put some shims like ogre states in his cave. If you pull the e-brake lever hard and the pads still do not lock the wheel, then you have got a problem with the caliper piston or the e-brake actuator. These brakes will work if properly adjusted. Sorry to say but if you do not understand how these brakes work, then you are in trouble. Good Luck
Don

Sorry to bring an old thread back but better than starting yet another brake thread.. and I'm pretty frustrated.

I've replaced the rear brakes , bled, etc.. everything stops fine and dandy. My issue is with the parking brake.

I did the procedure as described in the cave - shim and everything. Now it seems that the parking brake will not release all the way, and causes the rear brakes to drag... What did I do wrong??? I'm going to go start over tomorrow I guess, seeing as I have no other choice.. Most of what I've read has to do with pedal travel being too far and the brakes not engaging.. I seem to have the opposite problem Any suggestions on what to try out first to cure the dragging parking brake??? any help is appreciated.. thanks

------------------
-Seth
2001 GAGT
1984 Fiero SE m4

quote Originally posted by ice8420: Sorry to bring an old thread back but better than starting yet another brake thread.. and I'm pretty frustrated. I've replaced the rear brakes , bled, etc.. everything stops fine and dandy. My issue is with the parking brake. I did the procedure as described in the cave - shim and everything. Now it seems that the parking brake will not release all the way, and causes the rear brakes to drag... What did I do wrong??? I'm going to go start over tomorrow I guess, seeing as I have no other choice.. Most of what I've read has to do with pedal travel being too far and the brakes not engaging.. I seem to have the opposite problem Any suggestions on what to try out first to cure the dragging parking brake??? any help is appreciated.. thanks

On the rear of the caliper, check and make sure the levers on both sides are against the stops.
First try to disconnect the cable end from the lever and see if they will push the lever to the stop (checks spring tension) and reattaach if they do. The lever(s) will need to be forced down against the spring tension to do this part.
If theat checks out to be OK, adjust the cables till they just reach them using the adjuster. The brakes wil then no longer drag.
There is also the possibility the the return springs on the lever(s) are no longer strong enough to pull the cable back far enough which may indicate a need to replace the cables.

Thank you ! I will try this and get back to you. The adjuster is in the back center of the car... right?

PM sent

88Ironduke

quote Originally posted by ice8420: Thank you ! I will try this and get back to you. The adjuster is in the back center of the car... right?

Someone suggested spinning the pistons and you responded as if you were not sure of what was meant by that, I'm asking just in case; did you know before hand that the rear caliper pistons have to be turned during the process of pushing them back into the bore, I'm not sure what damage can be caused but I imagine something could have been damaged if you were not aware of this and was able to force the piston back into the caliper the way you are able to on the front calipers without any turning.

And since you replaced the master cylinder did you check the push rod in the brake booster which on some cars can be adjusted and depending on a difference between the original and replacement mastercylinder might require it. As for the lines I would set the car on blocks take all four wheels off and open the bleed valves and allow some gravity bleeding to make sure they are not clogged in any way, if that works fine they should be okay. Hoses that are bad usually cause calipers to stick in the braking position which would bring customers back with a complaint of a burning smell or smoke, I don't recall any associated with loss of pedal pressure. When you open the bleed valves tap on the caliper with a wrench and note if any bubbles come up suggesting trapped air.

And you can still have a bad mastercylinder even if it is the second one on the car, don't forget the problems had with the reman clutch mastercylinders and some new aftermarkets in my experience, the brake mastercylinder functions in pretty much the same way, and I have seen mechanics have to go through a few to get one that works. If you can find some threaded plugs to fit plug the mastercylinder and then check your pedal pressure

I really believe your problem is with the mastercylinder, I have seen a lot of brake work and with your complaint it almost always boiled down to air in the lines which the Fiero does not tend to have a problem with and the mastercylinder bypassing. I just don't see the likelyhood of replacing one set of calipers with another set that are causing the exact same problem before hand, usually they work or they stick after you install them, I have seen lots of mastercylinder problems, some are not aware that when bleeding brakes you should not push the brake pedal all the way to the floor especially when working with an old mastercylinder because in the process the plunger travels over an area in the bore it has not touched since the last brake job (possibly years) that has residue/build up, hardened in place that can damage the plunger and turn a good mastercylinder into a bad one.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 09-10-2005).]

I am having a similar problem. I replaced the brake lining all the way around and replaced the rear calipers while I was at it. I adjusted the rear brakes as per the procedures here and the parking brake holds after 5 clicks. The brakes work but the pedal is too spongy. I dont lose pressure when they are applied... just too spongy a pedal. I put in another master cylinder from a working brake system and still too much pedal. I bled the lines enough and each time I do them the fluid spits like Old Faithful. I noticed that when I depress the pedal I can see the fluid bubble in the resivour. Could air be getting into the system at the MC? BTW the MC in my 84 cpe does the same thing and the brakes are excellent in that car. Is it still a bleeding issue? How many times do you have to bleed each wheel to be satisfied that the system is free of air. Thanks for all the patience with this brake thread... The advice is invaluable to us weekend mechanics. This car is a 86 GT automatic.
Kevin

quote Originally posted by Indiana_resto_guy: On the rear of the caliper, check and make sure the levers on both sides are against the stops. First try to disconnect the cable end from the lever and see if they will push the lever to the stop (checks spring tension) and reattaach if they do. The lever(s) will need to be forced down against the spring tension to do this part. If theat checks out to be OK, adjust the cables till they just reach them using the adjuster. The brakes wil then no longer drag. There is also the possibility the the return springs on the lever(s) are no longer strong enough to pull the cable back far enough which may indicate a need to replace the cables.

OK.. here's what I did today. I adjusted the parking brake levers again according to the process in the cave. That worked good. It seems that my problem is with the parking brake not releasing.. it engages fine, when I push the button on the handle and put it back down, they do not spring back - I have to walk back to the caliper and pull the lever myself. Think the springs on the lever are no good??

Either that, or there's rust in the cables and the springs aren't quite strong enough to overcome the friction that results.

JazzMan

I think that's it.. because when the cable is not attached to the lever, it springs right back. I'll see if I can somehow get some penetrator in there, maybe it'll help with releasing.

quote Originally posted by ice8420: I think that's it.. because when the cable is not attached to the lever, it springs right back. I'll see if I can somehow get some penetrator in there, maybe it'll help with releasing.

Good luck, but if it were me I'd consider investing in replacement cables.

I've tried every trick in the book to "loosen" stiff e-brake cables, and IMO the effort is not worth the result (it's never lasted). OTOH purchasing a set of good quality, teflon-sheathed cables will likely last the remainder of the car's life.

Thanks for the advice. I'll look around for replacements - any obvious places to buy them come to mind?? I was going to check the local NAPA.

ya I have an 88 Gt and have just did a full brake job on my car, the same thing I have to pump the brake pedal once to get it pumped up but I still need to push very hard to lock the wheels up

What is the gigs on this issue ?

Other than the parking brake mechanism the brakes on the Fiero are just like any other GM of the era, fairly simple. If the pedal is rock-hard then the booster is probably at fault, or the vacuumline that runs to it is broken or plugged. If the pedal goes to the floor without locking the brakes that generally indicated air in the line, or possible bad rear calipers WRT the parking brake mechanism.

JazzMan