quote Originally posted by Formula88: What kind of "egg" is that? BTW, I think the Koenigsegg has to be the coolest supercar, PERIOD. I love Lambos and Ferraris and Porsches... even the Pagani, other than it looking really weird. But, if money were no object, the Koenigsegg would be on the top of my "must have" list.

I noticed the spelling of Koenigsegg when I've posted it... the Egg-part must have something to do with the vice presidents headshape...kind of "coneheadish"... But I wouldn't mind beeing in his shoes.

They're brutal....they look like they're being carved out of a single piece of aluminum...looks so solid on the road. I've seen them on the expressway a couple of times since they're beeing made like 15 miles from here. When they pass it's like a jet..... just a silent whosh and then when it's far, far ahead the engine roar hits you in the chest.....nice! Gives me goosebumps.

quote OK bare with me here but i made myself laugh so hard I just had to post it.. the idea that popped into my head was a group of fieros taking turns follow another car that was putting out a steady smoke stream and cruising around with another onthe side to take photos.. poor mans wind tunnel.. would get some funny looks i bet

A couple of kids around here are playing around with an old BMW M3 that they've connected a windshield wiper fluid-pump with diesel in it to the header. THAT SMOKES!
They call it dieselinjection! Looks like some kind of James Bond accessory.

EDIT: added quotes

[This message has been edited by Intel (edited 03-16-2005).]

You know you can test these theories. I think it's in September when the average Joe can go the the Salt Flats and run their car. It just needs to pass tech and do a minimum of 135MPH IIRC. I want to give it a try.

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I have a friend that has run a Corvette at Bonneville for about the last 5 years of so. He's steadily increased his speed and upped classes over the years. This year he's going to have two cars there. Last year he would have set the record for his class but he ran too fast for a car without a full rollcage and was disqualified. He's staying in his class this year, with the cage, and hopes to get in the record book. IIRC, he told me that anything over 170 requires a full cage and his class record was 167. He ran 170 one way and 174 the other. When he was here pheasant hunting this November we talked about what he had to do to get to those speeds.

First off, as an estimate, 150 is not that tough to do. You don't need to do a terrific amount of aero work, just be competent and make a lot of hp. Once past 150, things get pretty involved. With the same exact aero package, it takes roughly twice the hp to get from 160 to 180. The drag and power required are not linear, they are a fairly steep curve.

On his 'vette, the front has been smoothed greatly. The car has been lowered so the chin spoiler is about 1" off the salt at rest. At speed, it's about 1/2" due to the downforce. He runs smooth spun aluminum hubcaps. This helps keep the air out of the wheelwells. He has a smooth bellypan under car enclosing the engine compartment. Engine compartment temps get terrifically high and some of the air through the radiator is vented through the compartment and out vents. I don't know if those are hood or fender vents, I didn't ask and the pictures I have of his car don't show (or I can't see).

His engine is a very strong small block Chevy. I don't remember the displacement, but it's limited by the class he runs and it dyno'd at 680 crank horsepower.

This year he is working on a different under body panel that has a shallow tunnel that goes from fairly narrow to wide at the rear hoping for more downforce without a lot of increased drag.

He drove the Finale at an autocross while he was here and we ran it on Interstate up to about 140 (where it's still very stable). His guess was that it's probably about a 145 mph car, averaged both ways, on the salt at Bonneville. The salt generally takes about 10 mph from cars as it's much softer than asphalt or concrete so that means it's about a 150+ mph car on the highway, if we ever get the nerve to push it that hard.

In general, what you need to do to stay stable is two things. Eliminate turbulence and increase downforce. Getting rid of turbulence is a good thing for both speed and stability but the more downforce you have the more hp it's going to cost you because nothing is free in the world of physics.

For the Fiero, starting at the front, the aero nose would be greatly preferred. The notchie nose with the chin spoiler would cost quite a bit of power but would most likely stick the nose pretty hard. For the aero nose, fill and smooth the turn signals so they are perfectly flush. If possible, I wouldn't put much of a chin spoiler on it. The aero nose is already a pretty decent airfoil shape and with the proper angle of attack should hold it down pretty well on it's own. Vent the hood as close as possilbe to the front of the hood with a smooth exit area. Get the fan out of there, if possible, and use a custom high efficiency radiator that will disrupt the air as little as possible. Match tire to the wheel well opening size so they leave as little gap as possible between the outside of the tire and the opening. Vent that area with fender vents. Run smooth, spun aluminum hubcaps to cover the wheel area with a smooth surface. Remove and smooth the windshield wipers and windshield/hood interace area. That's a very high pressure area where the windshield meets the hood. To me, at the rear, I'd use a fastback and the area between the pillars enclose with a plexiglass cover to smooth it. I'd get rid of the wing if possible, but by looking at the shape I'd guess that you'd need some sort of wing to help stick the back end. Vent the engine compartment through the trunk area and out the back in the low pressure area you're going to have there anyway. Of course there would have to be some rake to the nose of the car, but with the natural shape of the Fiero and with proper attention to details, not as much as you'd think I'm guessing. Use a non sunroof car to keep the roof smooth. Remove anything that can cause turbulent airflow. Smooth the lines in the hood, glass the headlight doors smooth, remove and fill the mirrors mounts and door handles as well as the antenna and it's opening. Details will make or break you at those speeds.

It would be interesting to see just how fast a stock 2.8L could run if prepared for the salt.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Vent the engine compartment through the trunk area and out the back in the low pressure area you're going to have there anyway.

If you're going to do that, vent the engine compartment through the upper section of the trunk and use the space occupied by the lower part of the trunk to build a diffuser...

quote Originally posted by jstricker: On his 'vette, the front has been smoothed greatly. The car has been lowered so the chin spoiler is about 1" off the salt at rest. At speed, it's about 1/2" due to the downforce.

You know...... that's something I've never thought of before! Put some kind of linear potentiometer on one of the front/rear shocks, and at speed, you can have a readout of the downforce present on the car, since springs are linear with respect to force! I'd love to find out how much downforce a fiero has stock at 120mph+

^ Good luck finding a perfectly flat road to do that.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: ^ Good luck finding a perfectly flat road to do that.

Doesn't matter... so there will be a little noise. just take the average

quote Originally posted by Skybax: In the early 1990s... Oldsmobile took a 88-89 FWD Cutlass and achieved over 300 mph on the flats with a QUAD4 breaking 17 records previously held by Mercedes Benz.

quote Originally posted by Street&Strip Performance: The fastest oldmosbile that broke the speed records was the '87 Olds Aerotech with a twin-turbo Quad4, I don't believe I've ever heard of Olds using a W-body to do that. http://www.fast-autos.net/oldsmobile/oldsmobileaerotech.html Top speed was 278mph. There was a concept '89 Cutlass sedan called the Aerotech III, it had a supercharged Quad4 that put out 230hp, but it was never run at the salt flats from my knowledge.

< insert Beavis' voice >....."are you threatening me?"

Here is a partial scan of the article from my tool box, it's all I have left.

They achieved about 304 to 318 mph if remember correctly.

[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 03-16-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Skybax: < insert Beavis' voice >....."are you threatening me?" Here is a partial scan of the article from my tool box, it's all I have left. They achieved about 304 to 318 mph if remember correctly.

Learn something new everyday.

That looks like my old car, without the parachute, lol!

Will,

That was exactly what I had in mind. Several of the current supercars do something very similar to that with the diffuser.

quote Originally posted by Will: If you're going to do that, vent the engine compartment through the upper section of the trunk and use the space occupied by the lower part of the trunk to build a diffuser...

That's a fairly easy way to do it. If you have air suspension, you can read the change in bag pressure. OTR trucks can tell their axle weights by measuring bag pressure to maintain a fixed ride height. Use a linear pot on an arm and record data once per second then smooth the data statistically.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: You know...... that's something I've never thought of before! Put some kind of linear potentiometer on one of the front/rear shocks, and at speed, you can have a readout of the downforce present on the car, since springs are linear with respect to force! I'd love to find out how much downforce a fiero has stock at 120mph+

John Stricker

Well, I'm in Utah and am willing to give my car over to anyone with the funds to make this happen. . .of course, I get to keep the tricked out car when it's done

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: You know...... that's something I've never thought of before! Put some kind of linear potentiometer on one of the front/rear shocks, and at speed, you can have a readout of the downforce present on the car, since springs are linear with respect to force! I'd love to find out how much downforce a fiero has stock at 120mph+

Don't you mean upforce? I think your idea is valid but you may have to set your LVDTs up so they are in the middle of their travel and will measure significant downward suspension travel, and measure to find how much force it takes to raise the front end of the car the measured distance.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Don't you mean upforce?

Yeah, I suppose on a stock fiero it would be.......

Serious question regarding the headlight doors -

It feels as though to open, the doors need about 5 lbf behind them, at least to open them 2", after which they'd probably catch the wind to open fully. Using that, and approximately 10"x10" for the size of the door (didn't measure), that is a 0.05psi air pressure behind the door. It seems as though that's such a minuscule pressure, as not to be troublesome at all..... i.e. if doing a high speed run, that you just clamp the doors shut, or whatever necessary.

thoughts?

the Q4 did go 278mph
but in a streamliner
not a streetcar body
and AJ drove it

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Serious question regarding the headlight doors - It feels as though to open, the doors need about 5 lbf behind them, at least to open them 2", after which they'd probably catch the wind to open fully. Using that, and approximately 10"x10" for the size of the door (didn't measure), that is a 0.05psi air pressure behind the door. It seems as though that's such a minuscule pressure, as not to be troublesome at all..... i.e. if doing a high speed run, that you just clamp the doors shut, or whatever necessary. thoughts?

Vent the hood...

it may take 5lb to open the door when sitting still (more like 10-15 because my cat weights 10 lbs and is hell of a lot easier to lift than the headlight doors) - but when moving there is airpressure holding it down and there has to be more air pressure underneith to lift them.. across the whole surface area of the front end of the fiero this adds up to an alarming amount of lift.. you want there to be more pressure above than below the hood.. (for minumum drag the pressure would be more equal but still more ontop than under or you are going to be very unstable)

if you say that it takes 10lb to lift the headlight door from its front edge then its probably twice than from the center (for calculating the average psi that makes them pop up at 120mph) so lets say its 20 pounds and 100 square inches (i think the doors are more like 11" wide but this is hypothetical anyways) now the front end of the car behind the radiator is about 24"x72" thats 1728sq in... (20/100)=(A/1728) or 20/100x1728=A so the lift on the front end is now 345lbs just about the time the headlight doors pop up.. them popping up just saved your life as they now are venting pressure out from under the hood that was making the front end float and much more the front would start to lift up losing the pressure above the hood thats keepign you down to the road.

none of these numbers are actually real - just an example

quote Originally posted by Will: Vent the hood...

Tina vented her hood, and still has the same problem. She has to remove her headlight doors on 1/4 runs.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Tina vented her hood, and still has the same problem. She has to remove her headlight doors on 1/4 runs.

I think the coup nose has too muhc bottom area open and catches more air than the top - making it even worse than for the people with the aero nose..

with an aero nose and a hood vent i've hit 145 with no headlight doors popping up

I remember when the Quad4 first came out some shop got a Calais to go 200 mph. They used temp spare rims with drag slicks, removed the wipers and rear view mirrors, gutted a lot of stuff. I'd guess at this point you'd need lower the thing really far but keep it level, sounds like coil overs would fill the bill on a GT/Indy notchback. Looks like it would be hard to tape off the radiator opening, you'd want to make some type of hard block off/re-enforcement for the front end. I'd imagine tempoerature management would be a premium so extra oil cooling and air management for the engine bay would be in order. Doug Chase once commented that in rally racing the area right behind the rear window would collect a little pile of dirt, so I doubt adding an 84 type rear deck is really going to help and I'd suggest using the 84 side covers to block off that area completely. I suppose venting center to as far back and wide as you can in the engine bay with a wide vent/scoop that terminates before the back edge of the deck would do. I'd bet you'd have to tape the windows tight too. I'm not thinking a lot of down force is going to be needed extra, if you vent the front hood but you're gonna have to tape the headlights down. And leave the honeycomb behind the bumper(s) so it doesn't deform. Hmmm, battery moved up front. I'm not sure the Fiero needs a belly pan? The only other thing I'd be concerned with is maybe a rear lower valance wing for stability. I think the rear end of a Fiero gets a little loose in a cross wind at high speed, so I imagine this gets pretty pronounced at double where I've been. This only applies to the 84-87 suspension, it's all I've driven.
...my .02
Disclaimer: I am not an engineer, nor do I drive over 100 MPH in a Fiero or any other vehicle that I own or have borrowed with any regularity.

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John DuRette
***Custom 85 under construction, 87 Coupe in the driveway. The fun never ends!***