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Help with Clifford keyless entry by Skybax
Started on: 02-06-2005 06:43 PM
Replies: 13
Last post by: Dirty Harry on 02-08-2005 08:23 PM
Skybax
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Report this Post02-06-2005 06:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SkybaxSend a Private Message to SkybaxDirect Link to This Post
Ok... I'm a little confused. I'm just about finished installing my Clifford Matrix 2.5 alarm. Next is the power door locks. The keyless entry system goes like this.....

The 3-pin plug that comes from the alarm brain has 3 wires...

-GREEN (neg or pos lock input)
-RED (pos input for relay coils (ie: like if using 451M relay))
-BLUE (neg or pos unlock input).

These 3 wires go to a relay/module. (DEI 451M) There are the five wires that come out of it...

-VIOLET/BLACK wire (lock/unlock normally open #87) this wire also has inline 15a fuse.
-GREEN/BLACK wire (lock output #30)
-WHITE/BLACK wire (lock normally closed #87A)
-BLUE/BLACK wire (unlock output #30)
-BROWN/BLACK wire (unlock normally closed #87A)

I know the Fiero is a positive triggered system, and the wires are Black to unlock and Light Blue to lock. What I'm trying to figure out is, if the Fiero system is a Type-A or a Type-C. I think it is a Type-A system, but I'm not sure.

Also..... I know some people cut the 451M relay out and just use the Green and Blue wires from the brain to fire the Fiero relay. I would prefer to utilize the 451M relay to operate the locks and install it as it's originally designed to do. I'm not sure what the best way to approach this is.

I know there are some people on here who are experenced in this field. I'd like to install this correctly the first time and not FRY anything. Any help is appreciated.


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[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 02-07-2005).]

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Report this Post02-06-2005 11:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wattsSend a Private Message to wattsDirect Link to This Post
For these... and many other puzzling questions....
http://www.the12volt.com/carsecurity/carsecurity.asp

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87/88 V6 5spd "FormulaGT" Turbo, 85 Bright red GT 4spd (with matching 1:18 diecast and 1:24 plastic models!), 86 SE (custom body in progress)

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Mark
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Report this Post02-06-2005 11:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MarkSend a Private Message to MarkDirect Link to This Post
Brian,

You will have to use a relay module like the DEI 451M if the Clifford alarm can't source enough current to operate a relay coil (about 100 mA) in a positive triggered arrangement.

If memory serves me correctly, the Fiero locks are a 3-wire positive trigger system. In that case, the 451M is used to invert the neg trigger alarm outputs to pos trigger like in the figure in this link...

http://www.the12volt.com/doorlocks/page3.asp#3wp

As I re-read your post, it seems that your alarm may be able to operate with a positive trigger door lock system that uses relays. In this case, the 451M is really unnecessary. Again, the bottom line is the alarm has to be able to provide +12volts to the coils of the lock and unlock relays. The load of the typical automotive relay is about 100 mA or less.

[This message has been edited by Mark (edited 02-06-2005).]

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Skybax
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Report this Post02-06-2005 11:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SkybaxSend a Private Message to SkybaxDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the help and link...

I have access to the DirectTechs website with a Clifford Dealer password. I still don't get it, something isn't making sense. Is that diagram showing the factory lock relays or are they supposed to be 2 aftermarket installed relays?

This system has a single 451M relay already hardwired into the alarm system. (see my first post, 3 outputs from brain to 451M, then 5 outputs from 451M) I'm assuming since it is a quality system they give you that added bonus, the 451M, which eliminates the need for installing 2 aftermarket relays. (not all the models come with the 451M) But as you said Mark, I might not need it.

The info I have on my system from the DirectTech site is on another website I found that somebody converted to HTML...

================================

IMPORTANT! The door lock outputs are low current and should not be attached directly to any high current device; they are only to be used to activate relays.

This system can control two common power door lock types without any additional parts! With certain vehicles, or if an actuator is to be installed, either a 451 M Door Lock Relay Satellite or two relays will be required.

IMPORTANT! If you mistake a Type C direct-wired system for a Type A positive-pulse system, the module will be damaged! ===(Insert footnote from Skybax... "WE DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN NOW DO WE" )===

Type A - (+) 12V pulses from the switch to the factory relays
The system can control this type of system directly, with no additional parts. The switch will have three wires on it, and one will test (+) 12V constantly. The others will alternately pulse (+) 12V when the switch is pressed to the lock or unlock position.

If you cannot get to the switch, and you find a set of wires that pulse (+) 12V alternately on lock and unlock, you must take care to ensure that it is not a Type C direct-wire system.

Here is a test: Cut the wire which pulses (+) 12V on lock, and then operate the switch to unlock.

If all doors unlock, the vehicle uses type A system.

If you lose all door lock operation in both directions, you are operating the master switch in a Type C system.

If you lose all door lock operation of one or more, but not all motors stop operating, and other doors still work, you have cut a wire leading directly to one or more motors. You must instead find the actual wires leading to the switch.

Many domestically-made GM vehicles use Type A locks. However, many more GM vehicles are Type C than in previous years. The full-size pickups (1989-up), many of the S10 Blazers, the Corvette, '95 Cavalier/Sunfire 1993 - and newer, Camaro/Firebird all use Type C door locks, and cannot be controlled without a 451M! Almost all domestically-built Fords are Type C. Ford builds almost no Type A systems. Chrysler builds both Type A and Type C, so use care.

Type A - (-) pulses from the switch to the factory relays
This system is common in many Toyotas, Nissans, Hondas, and Saturns, as well as Fords with the keyless-entry system (some other Fords also use Type B).

The switch will have three wires on it, and one wire will test ground all the time. One wire will pulse (-) when the switch locks the doors, and the other wire will pulse (-) when the switch unlocks the doors. This type of system is difficult 1 mistake for any other type.

Type C - Reversing Polarity
Interfacing with a reversing polarity system requires either two relays or one 451 M (not included). It is critical to identify the proper wires and locate the master switch to interface properly. Locate wires that show voltage on lock and unlock. Cut one of the suspect wires and check operation of the locks from both switches. If one switch loses operation in both directions and the other switch operates in one direction only, you have located one of the target wires. The switch that lost all operation is the master switch. If one switch works both directions and the other switch works only one direction, you have a Type A system. If both switches still operate, but one or more doors have stopped responding entirely, you have cut a motor lead. Reconnect it and continue to test for another wire. Once both wires have been located and the master switch identified, cut both wires and interface as shown below

===================================

Either I'm getting old, or have a tired brain today (it IS sunday) but I can't seem to make sense of it.

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Profile? In 20 years... Auto Detailing, Auto Body, Classic & Antique Restorations, Mechanic, Engine Performance Specialist, Porsche-Jaguar Tech, Wholesaler, Sales, Independent Full Service Repair Shop, Vehicle Vinyl Graphic Design and hard-core auto / aviation enthusiast... now searching for a new career. What a ride!

[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 02-07-2005).]

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Skybax
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Report this Post02-07-2005 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SkybaxSend a Private Message to SkybaxDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post02-07-2005 07:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MarkSend a Private Message to MarkDirect Link to This Post
Brian,

Fiero's DO NOT use the Type C (direct reversing) technique. Instead, Fiero's use a set of factory-installed power door lock relays.

The factory PDL relays are up against the passenger-side kick panel. You have to remove the subwoofer speaker enclosure to get to the PDL relays. The factory relays have two connectors; one of the connectors has a blue wire and a black wire. These wires control the coils of the factory relays.

According to your alarm info, it can operate with either positive or negative triggered (Type A) systems. Therefore, you can connect your lock and unlock output from the alarm directly to the blue and black wires.

To be ABSOLUTELY sure of the connections, I would suggest you do the following test:

1. Briefly apply +12 volt power to the black wire to the factory PDL relays. Note what the locks did (i.e., unlock or lock).

2. Do the same for the blue wire to the factory PDL relay. (The locks should do the opposite of step 1)

3. Connect a milliampmeter between a +12 volt supply and either the black or blue wires to the factory PDL relay. The current should be <100 mA. Most alarms claim that they can source or sink up to 200 mA without any additional relays.


If you are unclear on any of this, feel free to give me a call.

Mark

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Skybax
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Report this Post02-07-2005 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SkybaxSend a Private Message to SkybaxDirect Link to This Post
Thanks, that makes more sense.

After re-reading the info 3 times hehe, and reading what you just wrote, it seems pretty clear.

H2/A GREEN to the Fiero BLACK
H2/C BLUE to the Fiero LT BLUE

That should fire the Fiero relays just like the power door lock button does. It seems like a waste of time and space to use the 451M for this application.

I guess I was thinking about it too hard and confusing myself.

And just for the record, incase anyone wanted to use the 451M, I think it would go like this...

-VIOLET/BLACK wire (this wire has inline 15a fuse) to power source
-GREEN/BLACK wire (lock output #30) to the Fiero LT BLUE
-BLUE/BLACK wire (unlock output #30) to the Fiero BLACK
-the other 2 wires would not be used

[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 02-07-2005).]

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Dirty Harry
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Report this Post02-07-2005 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dirty HarrySend a Private Message to Dirty HarryDirect Link to This Post
Sure glad to see this thread! I just purchased a Formula with no pwr windows, mirrors or locks but it has a Clifford alarm. I have a parts car that has pwr everything & was hoping to trade the doors & switches & be able to hook up the alarm to the locks. This will sure help. BIG QUESTION. Do you know if there has been a thread on adding the windows, mirrors & locks to a car? Apologize for getting off topic but I hope your problem has been finalized. Harry

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Report this Post02-07-2005 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Direct Link to This Post
do not buy a 451m you only need the 2 wire plug supplied with the alarm.
as far as your thoughts on the 451m if used is exactly correct.
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'87 GT
93 3800sc series I / 4t60e
7.597 1/8mile ET
1.579 60'
88.53 mph

[This message has been edited by jb1 (edited 02-07-2005).]

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Skybax
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Report this Post02-08-2005 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SkybaxSend a Private Message to SkybaxDirect Link to This Post
Thanks. Actually the alarm came with the 451M, which added to the confusion.

Harry... I don't recall ever seeing that, but I'm sure it been done. Dig deep in the archives.

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Report this Post02-08-2005 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Direct Link to This Post
Harry , you may be better off buying some aftermarket door lock accuators and adding them be alittle easier and cost you around $20-30. You would need to use a 451m or wire you own relays.

------------------
'87 GT
93 3800sc series I / 4t60e
7.597 1/8mile ET
1.579 60'
88.53 mph

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Report this Post02-08-2005 12:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dirty HarrySend a Private Message to Dirty HarryDirect Link to This Post
Thanks. I was also wanting to gain the power windows and mirrors though. Figured I could just change the door skins, add the harness & switches from the donor car. Anybody ever done this?
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Report this Post02-08-2005 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Direct Link to This Post
i had one that all the harnesses were in the car just needed to swap doors and add the switchs and plug it all in , not sure about history of car if it is normal or not, but you might check and see if the harnesses are in the car already.

------------------
'87 GT
93 3800sc series I / 4t60e
7.597 1/8mile ET
1.579 60'
88.53 mph

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Report this Post02-08-2005 08:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dirty HarrySend a Private Message to Dirty HarryDirect Link to This Post
Thanks, I'm hoping it is. Bump for more info!
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