I recently found a 88 formula that I would like to do an egineswap to. I would like this vehicle to be reliable, steetable and FUN. I would like to be able to hang at the drag strip and drive to work on nice days. Biggest question is bang for the buck i can get a low milage ls1 for aproxx 3500 or a higher milage lt1 for 1200. I think i would be willing to shell out the extra cash for a lighter weight engine with 50 extra horsepower. I am wondering what it would cost for a reliable built 3800 in the same horsepower range 300-350 ish?

Jason Robb

Having owned several copies of each engine, I'll just tell you what I think. Of the three, the L67 (3800) would probably be the easiest and wouldn't be hard to get into the power range you want. They can support power beyond that range and with careful tuning, quite a bit beyond that range. I want to become a bigger power player next season and I am using this basic powerplant as my weapon of choice for this go'round.

This is probably one of the best documented swaps of the three. This is where one would search

The LS1 would be awesome out of the box. If you are looking to stay close to stock, and money isn't as important as out of the box power, good reliable power, all day long, then this is your choice. However, there currently isn't a ton of aftermarket support to put these into Fieros as yet. The bigger players are ramping up though. I believe as of this writing, there are only a hand full of LS1 fieros out there. I can name only one.

www.ls1swap.com

The LT1 will work with existing kits but I believe you have to modify the frame to make it fit. I've never installed one, only read a site where a guy did install one. However, I am truley a fan of this underrated engine. They are cheap, reliable, and very capable of the power numbers you are looking for.

Check www.fierolt1.com

In anycase, this is what I think. Good luck with your project.

Both the 3800 and LS1 are good swaps. the LT1 is just too much work for what you get in my opinion.
You can also click on the link below for some more info.

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LS1 v8 T-Top 87 GT

http://www.acxunlimited.com/ls1swap.htm

[This message has been edited by LS1swap (edited 12-20-2004).]

quote Originally posted by LS1swap: Both the 3800 and LS1 are good swaps. the LT1 is just too much work for what you get in my opinion. You can also click on the link below for some more info.

I agree. The LT1 is kind of a weirdo engine with its cam gear driven water pump and distributor setup which will give you massive headaches just getting it all to fit into the engine compartment of the fiero. I did an LT1/4T60-E swap about a year ago and documented the issues I went thru during the installation. We used a remote-electric water pump instead of the OEM LT1 unit. You can see the info here: http://dtcc.cz28.com/LT1build/index.htm

If you want a V8, I suggest you hold out for the LS1 all-aluminum powerplant, it has a lot more potential than the LT1 in most respects. If you can be even more patient, GM is set to produce a 5.3L V8 (similar to the LS1) that will bolt directly to a 4T65-E transmission (FWD configuration) and will be available in the 2005-up Grand Prix's.

The 3800 V6 doesn't require an adapter plate or a lot of special parts to install into a Fiero, and it does fit better in the engine compartment than the V8's. However, it weighs more than the LS1 because of its all-iron construction.

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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Chip Burning | Fiero Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

I had read through your ls1 conversion page when it was just a thread but it's is nice to go through it again. How did you get an ls1 for that price WoW. I was wondering if you knew how much more difficult it would be if i used a harness and computer from a auto. The pulls i find are alot cheaper if they are from an auto car compared to the 6 speeds. Also I wondered how you manged to extend the starter pinion, did you find a longer replacement, manufacture your own, or somehow modify the original?

Jason Robb

The price of the engine was one of those deals that don't come around much. it was too good to be true in tat I had to replace one lifter and spun rod. still got a hell of a deal for that time LS1's were going for 4K+. the six speed itself is worth about 3K so that is why they are more expensive. you could use an auto harness you would just have to have the pcm reflashed for a stick. I extended the pinion gear by using two and having them tigged together( the powermaster one has a hole in the end the same size as the shaft). I then had to send it out to be hardened. it works fine, but I would not do it that way again. The LS1 swap I am working on now uses a GTO pan ( I am going to have some pics up soon) so the starter is mounted underneath just like GM did on their proto types. I wish I had known about a front sump pan when I did mine. I talk about it in the thread LS1 in detail at the end . I will post in a link

Here is the link
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20040710-2-027739.html

[This message has been edited by LS1swap (edited 12-21-2004).]

I'm just curious as to why the 3800 is such a viable option for so many Fiero owners when it weighs a TON for a V6? I would definately go with the LS1, it would never have been a question.

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[This message has been edited by Key Of David (edited 12-23-2004).]

It appears that when modified a 3800sc meets my power requirments and is somewhat cheaper than a v8 install. Ther is not much needed to get it mounted in the cradle that I can't make myself. The sbc needs a $1000 install kit at a minimum. The v8 may also require a new radiator. The few 3800's I have investigated were using the stock radiator. I haven't made up my mind as to do a v8 or a 3800 yet. I go back and forth and probaly will until i purchase the motor. I have found 3800sc's with harness,ecu, and accesories for $1200 ish. A lt1 with aprox. the same milage (60k) seems to go for about $1800. The cheapest ls1 i have found so far is $3200.
The 3800 seems a little cheaper but the ability to get more horsepower out of an v8 at a later date is what keeps me relooking at the v8 (that and the exhuast note) Fierox has a few video's on his website that really got me thinking about the 3800.

Jason Robb

You can get just as much power out of a 3800 as you can a V8. There is a large aftermarket for the 3800, including supercharger upgrades using the MP112 supercharger from the Ford Lightning.

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Turn the key and feel the engine shake the whole car with its lope; Plant the gas pedal and feel in your chest neither a shriek nor a wail but a bellowing roar; Lift and be pushed into the harness by compression braking that only comes from the biggest cylinders while listening to music of pops and gurgles. Know that you are driving an American V8. There are finer engines made, but none of them are this cool.

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

quote Originally posted by Key Of David: I'm just curious as to why the 3800 is such a viable option for so many Fiero owners when it weighs a TON for a V6? I would definately go with the LS1, it would never have been a question.

you don't notice it trust me.. I read rockcrawls listing of motors and I believe it was 60-80 lbs more then the 2.8 stock it's almost 200 at the wheels throw a 3.4 pulley on there you have your 200+ at the wheels. If you go all out and get an intercooler it makes it really spooky

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http://formula.cryptnix.com - whistle while you work

quote Originally posted by jtrobb: I recently found a 88 formula that I would like to do an egineswap to. I would like this vehicle to be reliable, steetable and FUN. I would like to be able to hang at the drag strip and drive to work on nice days. Biggest question is bang for the buck i can get a low milage ls1 for aproxx 3500 or a higher milage lt1 for 1200. I think i would be willing to shell out the extra cash for a lighter weight engine with 50 extra horsepower. I am wondering what it would cost for a reliable built 3800 in the same horsepower range 300-350 ish? Jason Robb

LT1= pain in the ass to install.. dont bother.
LS1 = great engine, but small aftermarket support, not to mention expensive
L67 = great engine, LARGE aftermarket support, and much cheaper to install..not to mention the sound of the supercharger winding up... great sound in my opinion

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: LS1 = great engine, but small aftermarket support, not to mention expensive

LS1 aftermarket DWARFS the L67 aftermarket. Are there billet stroker cranks for L67's? Are there aftermarket head castings? Intake manifolds? LS1 aftermarket is WAY bigger...

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: yes, and with the 4T60e transaxle, the car will weigh about 150 pounds more. not a big deal, since it's gonna weigh more with the LS1 also.

Uhh... LS1 is lighter than the 2.8. The Northstar weighs about the same as the 2.8, and the LS1 is lighter still. Now if you include one of those porky automatics, yeah, it might weigh more, but not everyone does that...

speed cost's money. Yhe diferance between a ls1 and a 3800 is $2000. How fast can I make a 3800 with 2 grand in it? I was thinking I should be able to install a cam an intercooler and smaller pulley for the price differnce of the 2 motors and still have the cheaper install of the 3800. The only problem is where do you go after that, once the insane horspower becomes the norm and you want more?

Jason Robb

Nitrous

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virgin 88 4 Cyl

quote Originally posted by jsmorter1: Nitrous

pretty much

quote Originally posted by Will: Uhh... LS1 is lighter than the 2.8. The Northstar weighs about the same as the 2.8, and the LS1 is lighter still. Now if you include one of those porky automatics, yeah, it might weigh more, but not everyone does that...

Will, I disagree with you. LS-1 is lighter than old SBC (approx. - 65 lb) but weight of the V6 2.8 is still better (approx. 370 lb). NS weight with automatic tranny is over 600 lb. NS is really very heavy engine. Weight of the V6 3800SC Series II/III is better than any DOHC V6 or V8 engine. V6 3800SC Series II/III with automatic tranny is still good choice (4T65E 205 - 214 lb) I am collected data from different sources (GM including).

Luba

Have you considered a 3.4L DOHC? You may want to. The swap is a lot easier than any of those, and cheaper, there are brand new engines surfacing for $1500-$2000, the only dificulty is the wiring, but that will be easier than any LT/S 1, or a L67. Sure power isn't quite on par, but it is easy to get the power where you want it with just bolt ons.

How much power are you looking for?
What do you want to run in the 1/4mi?

Also the 3.4L DOHC weighs a lot less than the L67, and is about 20 lbs heavier than an Iron headed 2.8L.

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1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale
14.78 @ 92.68
1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale
Offered to donated its organs to Fiero

quote Will, I disagree with you. LS-1 is lighter than old SBC (approx. - 65 lb) but weight of the V6 2.8 is still better (approx. 370 lb). NS weight with automatic tranny is over 600 lb. NS is really very heavy engine. Weight of the V6 3800SC Series II/III is better than any DOHC V6 or V8 engine. V6 3800SC Series II/III with automatic tranny is still good choice (4T65E 205 - 214 lb) I am collected data from different sources (GM including).

The heavy part of the Northstar/4T80E combo is the transmission. At over 300#, it's a porky piece of gear. The engine itself is barely heavier than the 2.8. When mated to a 5 speed, a Northstar makes a Fiero that's barely heavier than the 2.8. The LS1 is a very light engine... due to the very compact cylinder heads, it's at least as much lighter than the Northstar as the N* is lighter than the 2.8.

The L67 is an ALL IRON V6, with a 90 degree bank angle and a larger bore center than the 2.8. Aside from those factors contributing to it's greater weight, it also has a supercharger sitting on top of it, and that's not a light piece of gear either...

DOHC engines are heavier than pushrod counterparts of similar construction, but don't be suprised if an all aluminum DOHC engine is lighter than an all iron pushrod engine...

A N* is a bunch heavier than a 3.4L DOHC, which is heavier than the 2.8. Those camshafts add a lot of weight on both engines. The iron heads of the 2.8L weighed less than the head/cam combo of the 3.4L DOHC, and I'm sure the N*'s heads outweight that of the 3.4s.

Was the N8 an aluminum block?

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1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale
14.78 @ 92.68
1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale
Offered to donated its organs to Fiero

NS: 460+ lb (with accessories)

4T80-E: 295 lb (wet)

Will, look here:

http://www.241computers.com/ford/ContentExpress20-30-38.html

http://www.fieroaddiction.com/weights.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/enginescadillac.html

Luba

The ls1 list's its weight at 390#'s

yeah, i looked at rockcrawls site and it made me wish i could afford another archie kit. some of those engines are a lot heavier than i thought.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: Also the 3.4L DOHC weighs a lot less than the L67, and is about 20 lbs heavier than an Iron headed 2.8L.

Chevy 3.4 liter DOHC V6- 492.5 lb.

Buick 3800 Series II supercharged- 445 lb.

other way around

N* isn't that heavy Cadillac 4.6 liter Northstar V8- 468 lb... Czechfiero beat me to posting the site for weights.

I've weighed mine, and as it went into the Fiero it wasn't that heavy. 425ish.