Warning, this is most likely going to be a very long, and in-depth post.

The topic here is that my rebuilt engine will not start. Cranks great, but will not start.

Here’s a little history, starting about May of this year. During driving, the engine began misfiring on one of the cylinders. It also became increasingly difficult to get the engine to start, excessive cranking was necessary in order for it to run. I was able to limp the car to my parent’s house from about 120 miles away. Throughout the trip back, a large cloud of oil smoke would be present in my rearview after every shift. When I got it to the house, oil would shoot out of the exhaust when I rapped the throttle. Yeah, so the engine was basically toast.

The car was then barely, just barely, able to be started again and moved out to a spot in the lawn where it would reside until space was made in our shop for it to stay, and I would have time to work on it. I worked in Troy, and the ‘rents live near Lansing. It’s not like back in high school where I could just walk out and work on cars, the shop’s a little far away now that I am in college.

Throughout the summer, I would try to get it started just to be able to move it under its own power. A compression check of cylinders 1 and 3 yielded 0 and 30 psi, respectively. Cylinder 5 had about 60 if I remember…so I knew at least one cylinder could have enough compression to at least try to fire. But, no matter how much I would crank, and how much starting fluid Dad would be dumping into the throttle body, you couldn’t even hear an attempt at combustion. We checked for spark, which was present, and I even put in a brand new ignition module. Nothing.

Eventually, I just towed the car up into the shop and began taking the engine out, since I knew that it was totally blown on at least two cylinders. Upon disassembly, the top compression rings of three of the cylinders came out in more than 3 or 4 pieces, and the rest were severely worn and ridged.

Fast forward to this weekend. I finished reassembling the engine, mounted it on the cradle to the trans, and got it back in the car. Being the third time I’ve done this on a Fiero, it went quite well and rather quickly.

However, the engine still does not want to even try to start. Just cranks, and occasionally backfires through the intake. The following is a list of things that I tried or examined, in an attempt to rule out what is bad:

Crank to Cam timing: Besides the pictures that I took while I was reassembling the engine that shows cylinder #1 at TDC with the damper mark at zero, we again verified that the crank to cam timing is accurate with a leakdown test. I turned the crank by hand until the timing mark was at zero (the timing mark referenced here is the mark that I have used in the past, when the engine actually ran, so it is indeed the correct mark). #1 cylinder was pressurized, and went right out the exhaust. No problem, that means that #4 is on compression, so I turned the crank on full revolution. Again I pressured the cylinder with air, and it held pressure (but slowly leaked down, maybe because either the valves haven’t completely worn into the seats after the headwork, the rings weren’t seated perfectly, or whatever.). At any rate, it didn’t lose pressure dramatically.

Compression check: Just to make sure that somehow the machine shop didn’t give me a different cam back that just so happened to look exactly like my original, I did a quick compression check on #1. Just by hand threading the spark plug fitting into the head (it was barely tight and probably not air tight) I still got 90 psi. Plenty to fire with. As I said, the actual compression is most likely much more but the fitting for the compression checker really wasn’t all that tight. Also, with the timing mark at 0 (#4 at compression evidently), I put my finger over the plug hole and had my buddy crank the engine quickly enough such that only one revolution would be achieved. My finger was blown out of the spark plug hole just as he stopped cranking, and the timing mark was back to near zero at this time. Again, this verifies that crank to cam timing (mechanical timing) is correct.

Fuel: I verified that the injectors are connected to the correct wiring with my Helm manual. Mainly, I thought that maybe somehow I connected the 1, 3, 5 injectors to the 2, 4, 6 wiring, and vice versa. This was not the case; they are connected correctly. As evidenced by the smell in the shop, the fuel dripping from the spark plugs after many attempts to start, and the backfiring through the intake, the injectors are at least giving the engine some fuel, whether or not it is the right amount I do not know. There is at least 45 psi at the fuel rail during cranking, at least that is what my fuel pressure gauge tells me.

Ignition: The ignition timing seems to be right, as I will explain (I also put in brand new spark plugs, gapped correctly, and cleaned the plug holes with a tap). I know that my MSD coil is good, since I performed the coil testing procedure prescribed in the Helm manual and it passed exceptionally. I know that the wires are good, since I held each plug to ground while cranking and witnessed that it would fire. A timing light showed that #1 was firing right about at 0 degrees during cranking. However, when I put the ECM in diagnostic mode and then checked timing during cranking, the timing mark was now nowhere to be found under the light. With the ECM not being in regular mode, I tried starting the engine after rotating all the plug wires on the cap clockwise by one position. For example, #1 went to #2’s position, #2 went to #3…#6 went to #1’s position. I continued trying to start the engine after rotating the plug wires once more until I had rotated the wires around all the way back to their starting positions. During the attempt to start the engine after each plug wire rotation, I also tried starting the engine at the two extremes of the actual distributor rotation (i.e. rotating the base as if you were fine tuning the timing). I also tried all of the above with two different ignition modules, one original, and one brand new (Wells brand, not AC Delco).

TPS: Just as a long shot, I put my AutoXRay scanner on the car and found that the TPS was within the accepted voltage ranges for 0% to 100% throttle angle.

Injector pulse width: With the ignition on, and not cranking, the pulse width shows up at 12.5 ms. During cranking, it drops to about 5-6 ms. The AutoXRay isn’t exactly quick to respond on a OBD1 vehicle, either, but the above 5-6 ms is my best guess as to what it was at during about 10 seconds of cranking.

Starter motor: Starter is brand new and is spinning the engine at about 400 rpm during cranking. Battery voltage is supplemented by a battery charger set at “12V Boost” mode, since the car’s battery has been through hell trying to get this thing started.

Oil Pressure: The only reason that I would list this is that the fuel pump wouldn’t run if there wasn’t sufficient oil pressure…but we already know there is pressure and my gauge is reading about 60 psi of oil pressure during cranking. At least I know that the engine was rebuilt pretty tight, if I can get that kind of pressure with 10w30 during cranking!

That’s all that I can remember that I tried over the weekend. Any thoughts anybody? This is really tapping my brain as far as what could be wrong. I still have two ideas left as to things to try, but I want to see what others have to say first.

I know that this was quite long, but it seems as if I have tried just about everything that I can think of! I really hope that somebody out there has some insight, or other things that I could try. I appreciate any ideas!

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Blue '87 Coupe V6 5spd
AIM:FieroJoe87

Can you hear the fuel pump run for a couple of seconds when you first turn the key to just before where it will turn the engine over? It sounds like your timing is off from your description. You have to verify that you installed your timing gears correctly and that your distributor is set correctly. The rotor should be pointing at the number one position on the distributor at 10 degrees before top dead center. I marked the distributor base, where the distributor cap mounts, so I could see where the number one position would be with the cap off, and lined up the rotor to that mark when the timing marks were at 10 degrees BTDC. If the engine doesn't fire at this position or has trouble running, it could be 180 degrees out. You could try reinstalling the distributor 180 degrees out at this point or turning the engine over another turn and reinstalling the distributor again. Good luck, it seems that you are very close at this point. As for the timing gears, if the dots were facing each other, six o' clock for the cam 12 o' clock for the crank, then the number one and number four cylinders should be at top dead center, with the number four piston being in the firing position. Hope this helps you a bit.

Sounds to me you might have the distributor in wrong. I had one that refused to start even though I knew everything was right. Turned out to be the distributor was installed 180 degrees off. It would occasionally backfire but that was it. You also mentioned the timing marks on the crank were not visible when timing the engine which also would indicate the distributor installed wrong. You need to verify TDC on #1 cylinder and check the position of the rotor to see where it is.

Good Luck

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Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 INTERCOOLED SUPERCHARGED
White 88 GT Stock
Please give me a rating if you appreciate my contribution.
History of Skitimes Car

skitime and avengador1:

The fuel pump is priming and running during the cranking operation. I am getting plenty of fuel.

Assembling the engine: When cylinder #1 was at TDC, I installed the timing set with the dots on both the crank and cam gear at the apex of their rotations. Upon the installation of the harmonic balancer, the timing mark lined up with 0 degrees on the timing indicator. The installation of the distributor involved bringing cylinder #1 to TDC (as evidenced by the closed valves on #1 and the timing mark lining up to the timing indicator) and putting the distributor in such that the rotor was pointing at the terminal on the cap where the plug wire for cylinder #1 was connected. The plug wire for #2 followed clockwise from that, and so on for 3, 4, 5 and 6.

As I said in the previous post, I tried starting the engine after swapping plug wires (on the distributor cap) one by one in a clockwise manner...after three swaps I was now at 180 degrees from my original timing. 6 swaps puts me back to "base timing".

Thanks for the double check guys!

i know it might sound stupid but your ignition control modual may not be getting a proper ground. I know that when i had the 2.8 it exhibited simular symptoms when the ICM didnt have a good clean ground to the distributor base with a layer of dielectric grease. Otherwise this is out of my ball game. You said you were getting spark but it just seems like your getting it at the wrong time. Im not sure what the pick-up coil does but i think that it has to do with higher rpms. might be worth looking into.

Did you install a new mag pick-up coil?
I had one doing the same thing a couple of years ago, it had spark just not enough installed a new one and it fired right up.

The pickup coil is what i'd try too Joe. If it's bad, the module doesn't know when to fire the plugs so that could certainly be causing the problem. It's a cheap part too so certainly worth a try.

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Activities Director N.I.F.E.

www.fierofocus.com

fieromadman: The only thing that should be between the bottom of the ICM and the distributor base should be a layer of heat sink compound, which there is. I can double check though...sometime during this week I am going to have both of my ignition modules tested.

Indiana_resto_guy: The pickup coil has only about 15,000 miles on it. That was an idea...that it could somehow be bad and causing the rotor/permanent magnet of the distributor to give erroneous data to the ICM. Any suggestions to test?

Does you tach register while you're cranking?

quote Originally posted by FieroJoe: Indiana_resto_guy: The pickup coil has only about 15,000 miles on it. That was an idea...that it could somehow be bad and causing the rotor/permanent magnet of the distributor to give erroneous data to the ICM. Any suggestions to test?

Remove the distriubtor.
Do a resistance check by disconnecting the plug from the mag pick up to the ignition module, first between either terminal of the pick up to ground. Use the lowest setting and ground it to the distributor base and spin the shaft, the reading should be infinite at all times, if it isn't replace the coil. Next change the mutlimeter setting to x1000 and read between the two connecting wires of the plug, the reading should read between 500 &1500 ohms. Flex the wires during each test as well. Make sure the coil is mounted securely as well.
Also check the play of the shaft in the housing.

If that doesn't help find a GM service manual and use chart C-4.

Phil: The tach does register while cranking. I can't be sure, but would that ensure that the pickup coil works?

Indiana_resto_guy: I will attempt to test as you said the next time I make it back to where the car is. It really sucks trying to do projects like this when the shop is 75 miles away.

Now, is there any future speculation as to what it could be if both the ICM and pickup coil pass the tests? The only thing left that I can think of is somehow the computer is really screwed up and either giving too much fuel (nobody's commented on my injector pulse width information above...) or just really out of whack some other way.

Thanks all!

quote Originally posted by FieroJoe: As I said in the previous post, I tried starting the engine after swapping plug wires (on the distributor cap) one by one in a clockwise manner...after three swaps I was now at 180 degrees from my original timing. 6 swaps puts me back to "base timing". Thanks for the double check guys!

ehhh.. start over again bro.. put ALL spark plugs back where they belong and pull the distributor and retime it. With cylinder one at TDC, in diagnostic mode, it should be at 10 degrees. Also, 60 psi is waaaaay too high, it sounds to me like you might have a blockage in your fuel line causing the fuel pressure to go up.

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: ehhh.. start over again bro.. put ALL spark plugs back where they belong and pull the distributor and retime it. With cylinder one at TDC, in diagnostic mode, it should be at 10 degrees. Also, 60 psi is waaaaay too high, it sounds to me like you might have a blockage in your fuel line causing the fuel pressure to go up.

If that's true, it may be flooding out. I missed that pressure statement, but if that is not while cranking it may be OK. Cranking should be around 40lbs..
Have you tried starting it with the cold start valve disconnected? Or starting it in diagonistic mode? (Pins A & B connected)

aaronus: I said in my post, I am back at what I am calling "base timing". #1 at TDC and the plug wires at their appropriate locations on the cap. As I said in the post, my moving of the plug wires around in succession was a way for me to rule out all possibilities. Notice my comment about trying to set base timing with and without the ECM in diagnostic mode. Also, regardless if I am trying to start the engine at 0 degrees or 10 degrees advanced, the thing should still try to start. This engine is not that damn sensitive, I have timed these engines before.

Indiana_resto_guy: I have indeed tried to start it in diagnostic mode, didn't change anything as far as the cadence of the occasional backfires through the intake. I was under the impression that the cold start valve only activates at low temperatures; when the cold start valve switch closes. I will have to check the switch to see if it is open or closed.

I too believe the problem is in the timing. The only other thing I would check is that the valves aren't set a little too tight. So when the oil pressure starts building up you are holding the valves open just a little. Good luck, we have all been there where it should start and some little thing is keeping it from happening.

I hope your mailbox is empty. (yahoe)
Sent you C-4 charts to assist you in your efforts.
If the problem is in the fuel system let me know and I will send those as well.
You might want to get those out and save them, lots of space.

Thanks for the charts! Looks like they're the same ones out of my Helm manual, they will definitely come in handy. Hold off on the fuel ones as I am sure that I've got them in my book already. I appreciate it!

In one post you said that you lined up the marks on the crank and cam gear "at the apex of their rotation". I don't know exactly what you mean by that but the mark on the cam gear should be at 6 o'clock and the crank gear mark at 12 o'clock. Perhaps that is what you meant??

quote Originally posted by David DeVoe: In one post you said that you lined up the marks on the crank and cam gear "at the apex of their rotation". I don't know exactly what you mean by that but the mark on the cam gear should be at 6 o'clock and the crank gear mark at 12 o'clock. Perhaps that is what you meant??

The apex is the highest point...I.E. 12 o'clock on each gear. The orientation you describe puts #4 in firing position in this particular engine.

quote Originally posted by FieroJoe: The apex is the highest point...I.E. 12 o'clock on each gear. The orientation you describe puts #4 in firing position in this particular engine.

That's what I was thinking myself. If the distributor was installed @ #1 as TDC and the engine wasnt rotated, it is 180* out and needs to be removed and rotated.

im not 100% sure but on every crank/cam combo ive put together the mark on the cam goes at 6o'clock and the crank goes at 12o'clock, they point at each other.

maybe you need to remove your timing cover and move the crank and cam to that position and try it out.

matthew

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: im not 100% sure but on every crank/cam combo ive put together the mark on the cam goes at 6o'clock and the crank goes at 12o'clock, they point at each other.

Yep.

quote maybe you need to remove your timing cover and move the crank and cam to that position and try it out.

That's not necessary. Just rotate the crank 360 degrees and the two marks will point at each other. Then remove the distributor, move the rotor to the proper position, replace the plug wires, double check the plug wires, and start it up.

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Doug Chase
Chase Race
Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication

[edited for spelling]

[This message has been edited by Doug Chase (edited 10-13-2004).]

Joe has installed his timing gears correctly. There was a post a while back about timing marks on the 2.8 and it seems that most 2.8s have the gears installed at 12 and 6, except Joe's 2.8 which needs to be set at 12 and 12. He had this problem when he first got this motor. But it ran fine with the gears installed this way. He knows what he is doing with the gears.

As for rotating the distrubutor, do you mean rotating the whole housing or just the rotor & shaft? The coil and ICM wires are not long enough to do a complete 180 with the housing.

The no timing marks during diagnostic mode cranking is new info to me. This is definatly a sign of not being timed correctly. Either the timing is 180 off or the pickup on the timing gun is picking up an incorrect signal.

I orginally thought computer might be fried, but Joe did some more testing after I left and found out more information. A mechanic at work suggested disconnecting the fuel pump and spraying in some brake kleen or starting fluid and then seeing if it will start. If it did, then there is a fuel injection issue.

quote Originally posted by Black86SE: Joe has installed his timing gears correctly. There was a post a while back about timing marks on the 2.8 and it seems that most 2.8s have the gears installed at 12 and 6, except Joe's 2.8 which needs to be set at 12 and 12. He had this problem when he first got this motor. But it ran fine with the gears installed this way. He knows what he is doing with the gears. As for rotating the distrubutor, do you mean rotating the whole housing or just the rotor & shaft? The coil and ICM wires are not long enough to do a complete 180 with the housing. The no timing marks during diagnostic mode cranking is new info to me. This is definatly a sign of not being timed correctly. Either the timing is 180 off or the pickup on the timing gun is picking up an incorrect signal.

The way the gears were (are) installed is OKl
Bring #1 up to it's compression stroke and stop at 10* BTC, remove the distriubtor and rotate the shaft to # 1 firing position (pointing at #1 plug), leave the plug side of the distributor base (flat side) between parallel to the transmission case and 10* rotation counter clockwise. Install the cap and wires and go from there.

[This message has been edited by Indiana_resto_guy (edited 10-13-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Indiana_resto_guy: The way the gears were (are) installed is OKl Bring #1 up to it's compression stroke and stop at 10* BTC, remove the distriubtor and rotate the shaft to # 1 firing position (pointing at #1 plug), leave the plug side of the distributor base (flat side) between parallel to the transmission case and 10* rotation counter clockwise. Install the cap and wires and go from there.

That is exactly how I originally installed the distributor, but I will start again from scratch this weekend to make sure that I didn't goof something up.

Thanks for putting the timing chain issue to rest. The Fiero V6 does NOT have conventional crank / cam timing. As Black86SE said, I do have the timing correct. I was hoping not to have to go through this whole debacle as far as crank to cam timing.

Bump

Wow, I have installed 2 sets of timing gears wrong although I can find no documentation to supports that. Looks like I may be the one removing front covers.

quote Originally posted by David DeVoe: Wow, I have installed 2 sets of timing gears wrong although I can find no documentation to supports that. Looks like I may be the one removing front covers.

There is no need to remove the front cover. Just rotate the crank 360 degrees. This rotates the cam 180 degrees and everything is where it belongs. Then just install the distributor in the appropriate position.

Doug

quote Originally posted by David DeVoe: Wow, I have installed 2 sets of timing gears wrong although I can find no documentation to supports that. Looks like I may be the one removing front covers.

They can be installed two ways, one is the cam at 6 o'clock and crank at 12 o'clock (# 4 TDC and fire position) the other is the cam at 12 o'clock and crank at 12 o'clock (# 1TDC and fire position). Both ways are fine.

[This message has been edited by Indiana_resto_guy (edited 10-13-2004).]

quote Originally posted by David DeVoe: Wow, I have installed 2 sets of timing gears wrong although I can find no documentation to supports that. Looks like I may be the one removing front covers.

When I rebuilt my 2.8 I installed the timing gears at 12 and 6 and I had no problem. As long as you set your timing correctly there should be no problem.

First, pull a plug and see what kind of spark its making, good long blue, weak, yellow, or what not. Also try poping a vac line or two, could be choking. Then my guess would be timing, Either start rotating the dis, or do like I do, rotate the wires, just move 1 to 2, 2 to 3, etc. The effectively rotates the dist. without having to pull it.

If you have compression, your timing gears have to be close enough to at least make an effort to run.

It takes 4 things to make an engine run
1:compression
2:fuel
3:spark
4:air

start ruling things out. Do a compression test on all 6. Then try spraying some starting fluid in, then pull a plug and see how its sparking, then pop the PCV hose to give it some more air. Thats my basic trouble shooting process.

quote Originally posted by FieroJoe: I have indeed tried to start it in diagnostic mode, didn't change anything as far as the cadence of the occasional backfires through the intake. I was under the impression that the cold start valve only activates at low temperatures; when the cold start valve switch closes. I will have to check the switch to see if it is open or closed.

if it's backfiring back through the intake, that tells me your timing is more than likely off. you had mentioned that you couldnt see the timing mark at ALL anywhere on the balancer. two possibilties come to mind:

a) you might be timing the wrong spark wire. Number one cylinder on my 85 GT is in the front right side, the side of the engine closest to you when you are standing at the back of the car, facing the engine with the decklid open.

b) your balancer pulley might need to be replaced? the balancer on mine went bad about a year ago, it is made of two pieces and they are held together by rubber. On mine, the rubber deteriorated, and the outer ring of the balancer pulley spun independantly of the crank pulley. it was only slight at first, but eventually i discovered the problem because my alternator wasnt producing enough voltage. I know its a stretch, but i'm running out of ideas here, it sounds liek your covering your bases.

when you test the fuel pressure it should be 45 psi at idle, and about 40 psi at WOT

bump

lol this is a crazy thread! godzillon posts!

if it were mine. and mine did do this...

I did a real compression check. tight fitting in plug hole for all cylinders. make sure your pumping air...
set your dist. seems like you have that figured just fine. leave the intake hose off and take out the fuel injector fuses. crank the engine and spray some starting fluid in the intake. if it does not fire and run a little. your ignition is screwed up. the best thing to do would be to get a known working complete dist. from somebody and plug it in. if it fires you know what to work on. if it does not then you have the ign coil, its power/module wires, and the sparkplugs and wires to look at. I ended up replacing everything but the dist. housing. sad part is that I am not sure exactly what made it run. also you probably need a new cat converter. if it is as plugged as mine was it will make your troubleshooting much harder. for now you could disconnect the cat from the y-pipe just until it fires up. best of luck

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: First, pull a plug and see what kind of spark its making, good long blue, weak, yellow, or what not. Also try poping a vac line or two, could be choking. Then my guess would be timing, Either start rotating the dis, or do like I do, rotate the wires, just move 1 to 2, 2 to 3, etc. The effectively rotates the dist. without having to pull it. If you have compression, your timing gears have to be close enough to at least make an effort to run.

The rotating of the wires on the distributor cap has already been done, as said in my first post. I have ruled many things out.

Update: Went into Murray's today and I tested both of my ignition modules with their tester (buddy used to work there, they let me use what I needed to) and they both checked out perfect. I also picked up a new pick-up coil while I was at it, as I will replace it when I pull the distributor to start from scratch as far as timing goes.

Here's another thought. Perhaps the timing was out the first few times you tried to start it. Since it didn't start after a bunch of cranking it got flooded. Now even though the timing is correct it won't start because it's flooded.

If this is the case then pull all the plugs and dry them off. Pull the fuel pump or injector fuses, hold the throttle wide open, and crank until you stop getting a cloud of fuel mist coming out of the spark plug holes. Then crank it a little more just for good measure. Reinstall the fuses, reinstall the plugs, triple check the timing, then fire it up.

A similar thing has happened to me.

Good luck, and keep us updated on your progress.

Doug

quote Originally posted by Doug Chase: Here's another thought. Perhaps the timing was out the first few times you tried to start it. Since it didn't start after a bunch of cranking it got flooded. Now even though the timing is correct it won't start because it's flooded. If this is the case then pull all the plugs and dry them off. Pull the fuel pump or injector fuses, hold the throttle wide open, and crank until you stop getting a cloud of fuel mist coming out of the spark plug holes. Then crank it a little more just for good measure. Reinstall the fuses, reinstall the plugs, triple check the timing, then fire it up. A similar thing has happened to me. Good luck, and keep us updated on your progress. Doug

I too gave the whole flooding idea a thought. But, after I played around with the turning of the distributor, repositioning of the wires, etc, I went back to where I started, my 'base' timing. At that time I installed brand new, dry, spark plugs. From there I again tried cranking and did all the timing adjustment business, to no avail.

Good idea though, and thanks for putting it out there.

I really couldn't read this whole thread so this may have been said already.
Don't trust the marks on the balancer.Check the #1 piston.Spin the moter until you know what one the compression stroke is and bring piston all the way up.Check crank mark.Set distributer.Also check gear on bottom of distributer.

back fire through intake is a timing problem or valve stuck problem
gas spark timing compression.

Also check gear on bottom of distributer.

I have seen where the rol pin has broken here and allows the gear to rotate on the shaft. If you pull the dist. give it a good turn holding one end.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: I really couldn't read this whole thread so this may have been said already. Don't trust the marks on the balancer.Check the #1 piston.Spin the moter until you know what one the compression stroke is and bring piston all the way up.Check crank mark.Set distributer.Also check gear on bottom of distributer. back fire through intake is a timing problem or valve stuck problem gas spark timing compression.

I don't want to come off incredibly sassy or anything, but there is a reason why my original post is so long. It's a comprehensive account of everything that I have tried and done, which adds to the frustration of why the engine doesn't start. I can trust the timing mark, since (as said previously in this topic) I am using the same mark that I used to time the engine when it was originally running (pre-rebuild).

fuzz: unless the roll pin just up and sheared on the first try to start, the gear is still attached to the distributor. You brought up a good point though.