Darth, you wouldn't dare do a burnout in The Adjuster's car without her being present, would ya? LOL!

In addition to the shifter, I'm also curious about the timing changes you made in the PROM. Is this something you'd want to see a data capture for before you'd do it to another PROM or would you just apply your results?

I really like the work you do with the 3800 engines - everything is simple, bolts right in and just plain works. I'm of the opinion that the N/A engine is the right engine for my needs so you've been a great resource. Then again, your turbo is inspiring!

quote Originally posted by Stinkin_V8: I'm also curious about the timing changes you made in the PROM. Is this something you'd want to see a data capture for before you'd do it to another PROM or would you just apply your results? I really like the work you do with the 3800 engines - everything is simple, bolts right in and just plain works. I'm of the opinion that the N/A engine is the right engine for my needs so you've been a great resource. Then again, your turbo is inspiring!

Thanks. I spent a lot of time today tuning this thing just right. I think I have the timing table nailed down. It would be a lot easier if I could pull the timing from a 95 3800 Series II N/A chip (which uses the same computer) but my software won't read it correctly because the code is different. It runs good and I put about 100 miles on it today including beating the crap out of it to make sure everything will hold up to the wifey's foot .

Tomorrow we are going to spend time detailing this car out for Saturday's Heartland Fieros car show here in Davenport. I will get some pics posted of the car once it is cleaned up if I have time but will definately have some from the show to finish off this thread. Don't worry, I haven't forgot about the shifter and mounts pictures some people have been asking about, I will get those posted after the car show.

Ah! I forgot - the engine is a OBDII, PCM is OBDI.. Gotcha. Thus the need for the change. I assume you wouldn't bother doing this if you were doing an OBDI engine with it's stock OBDI PCM, right? Or am I relying on the General too much to have it optimized?

Enjoy the show, snap some good pics. I can wait for that other info until things settle down.

Hope The Adjuster can bring home some hardware with her new toy! The force is strong in this one.

I'm speechless!!! Naw not really!!! After all I am a woman! But man do I love this car! I got to drive it after spending 15hours on my butt all day in a classroom (and yeah I said it right 15hours at school because of board reviews on top of classes) and the seat was so comfy! Like it was made for me with a mold of my lumbar and thoracic spine (ie, my back). Course it was probably made for someone 5'8" which is what most vehicles are made for and I am 5'7" so It practically was made for me! But I had no problems sitting in this thing...Then I got to drive it and I couldn't stop smiling...it was really hard to not laugh like a hyena in this thing...wow, mine!!! I couldn't remember Darth's car pulling the needle to buried this easy when this motor was in his car, but it really is quite simple in this one!!! I didn't expect this car to have this much oomph! I figured it would be a fun grocery getter but I will absolutely not be embarrassed to take this to the track!!! Can't wait to find out what it does...hehehe. Yeah I think the turbo would be overkill at the moment but then of course Darth looked over at me last night as I was getting some drive-thru at taco bell and said "It feels like it's waiting for something" and I know it won't be too many more summers before one gets added. I've come to realize something, I will never own a stock car again...Darth can't keep from fiddling. We do have some cosmetic things to be working on in the next year...but I am impressed it is running in time for the Heartland show tomorrow... and I think we are doing a cruise to maid rite for dinner tonight so I'm sure I'll drive it tonight. I may not put this car into a show class though...Fred has set up a host display class and since Darth is an official member and his car will be in there...but I am a member by simply being his other half and may also choose to put this car in the host class as well, what do ya'll think? Should I enter the show or just the host class? I'm still debating...but also remember this car doesn't have a fancy paint job...it is stock with a few minor issues. Oh well, I don't really care, this car is pure fun on wheels!!!

Too bad you can't take the judges of the show on a cruise in the car!

Here is a link to the car show thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/044892.html

As promised, here is a pic of what I did with the shifter linkage.

As I mentioned earlier, the Series II exhaust manifold is very close to the shift linkage so I had to "shrink" the shift arm down a little. Because the radius arm is smaller for the shift lever, this tends to move the gear selector stops closer thru the shifter. Basically, the old neutral stop (reverse lockout) is OD and you have to press the button to get into neutral. This setup allows for access to all 7 positions (P,R,N,OD,D,2,1) no problem.

Also installed the CD player I had on hand.

I have the opportunity to trade this deck even up for a Pontiac CD w/ EQ but I also have duplicate unit like this one for parts and I might get bold and change the button colors to red to match the Fiero illumination. We will see.

I also sandblasted the seat tracks and painted them with Cast Coat Iron engine paint.

I will get some more pics of the car probably tomorrow and will get those mounts pictures taken and posted sometime this week.

Hey Darth I sent you a PM BTW great swap thread

Just wanted to supply a little update, the car is running great and we put about 250 miles on it already just driving it around town and some highway testing. There are a few issues that still need some attention like the brakes, which I am working on right now. The sunroof tracks that hold the weatherstrip are rotted out so those are going to be getting replaced very soon as well. Other than that, it doesn't leak any fluids and gets about 20mpg combined in-town driving and highway beating so I am very pleased.

The plastic intake manifold will absorb less engine heat than the aluminum one will. You might get some alum. spray paint or paint it to match your cars paint. Or paint it with some flams on it.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I have the 1997 3800 Series II n/a (L36) engine left over from my Fiero when I did the turbo upgrade and this is what she wanted. My friend just rebuilt a 4T60-E with 3.06 gears a couple of months ago for me so this is the tranny we will be using.

Welp, I've just read through your entire thread and boy am I inspired! Yes, things can get "held up", but yes, also, there are nifty things, like that perfect altenator solution! Phwew!

So now that Im inspired, (and Bookmarked this thread), I'm finally going to dive in and ask about my situation.
I drive a 86GT Auto and at 55 years old, now like the Auto. It's a beauty with 66K miles I bought but now will sell. I own an 86 GT and a 87 GT both have been parked for years. And right next to them is my 91 Buick Park Avenue with it's great 3800 I retired when I picked up the 86 I'm driving.

The 91 Buick has the aluminum intake, and before you ask for it and before I offer it... I have to ask the Big Question:
does it make any sense at all to put that engine/tranny in my 87GT? It's a Series I obviously (SFI or TPI what is the differenc?) and I don't know what tranny it would have. But they both work great in the Park Avenue now. Or is it crazy to do all this much work and not end up with a Series II?

What I've been thinking is to just put it straight in, no big dealing around, but incorporating anything cool like your cool cool cool altenator.
The one thing that DOES make me hesitate is that the Series II is narrower and that obviously makes things easier .
I imagine that the Series I additional hp/torque will be impressive enough over the stock V6, but maybe I'm wrong. But how much does that stack up to the fact that I've got a total and complete running-great Series I in my driveway that I was about to junk anyway? I mean, given that everything is Right Here, is a Series II really worth the difference of having to find and buy and strip another unit of unknown heritage? Answering my own question, I think , sure, buy a 95 something or other for $500 and do it "right." But if my goal is just to get a 3800 with 4-speed OD Auto into it, is the horse etc from a Series II going to make much difference?
I guess what I'm asking here is doing a Series I "not done" or can it be a good choice? I notice most threads are about Series II and can't get a sense of the merits (or lack of them) for Series I with it's original tranny.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Like I said this motor is junk BUT the 125-C that is attached to it is in good condition with functional TCC. The build code (85-CD) returns saying this trans has a 3.33 final drive. Anyone looking for a 3.33 125-C trans?

Oh, and that's the other thing. Tranny. I don't understand what trannies come with what. Is the 4T60-E probably what I already have in the 91 Park Avenue? Or is it likely something else I would 'not' want to just install as-is like I'm thinking. Anyone have a referal link with that type of info?

Anyway, soon as I decide, learn more, find enough links to decide, I'll decide.
Lots of comments, please!

Thanks again, Very Great Thread... and yes, we ARE waiting to see pix of this famous paint scheme!!

Michael,
Inspired!

[This message has been edited by MichaelWalsh (edited 08-26-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Other than that, it doesn't leak any fluids and gets about 20mpg combined in-town driving and highway beating so I am very pleased.

I dunno dude, I was pissed when I got 22 after beating on my 3100 / 4T60E

I really like your swap... I wouldn't mind having one. Although a lot of people will probably look right by it a NA 3800 is really a great engine for the Fiero and with the 4T60E's overdrive it's probably about the best highway cruiser fiero out there, with enough power to have a lot of fun on the side. Definitely an awesome combination.

But why am I telling you this? You obviously already had it figured out.

quote Originally posted by MichaelWalsh: The 91 Buick has the aluminum intake, and before you ask for it and before I offer it... I have to ask the Big Question: does it make any sense at all to put that engine/tranny in my 87GT? It's a Series I obviously (SFI or TPI what is the differenc?) and I don't know what tranny it would have. But they both work great in the Park Avenue now. Or is it crazy to do all this much work and not end up with a Series II? What I've been thinking is to just put it straight in, no big dealing around, but incorporating anything cool like your cool cool cool altenator. The one thing that DOES make me hesitate is that the Series II is narrower and that obviously makes things easier . I imagine that the Series I additional hp/torque will be impressive enough over the stock V6, but maybe I'm wrong. But how much does that stack up to the fact that I've got a total and complete running-great Series I in my driveway that I was about to junk anyway? I mean, given that everything is Right Here, is a Series II really worth the difference of having to find and buy and strip another unit of unknown heritage? Answering my own question, I think , sure, buy a 95 something or other for $500 and do it "right." But if my goal is just to get a 3800 with 4-speed OD Auto into it, is the horse etc from a Series II going to make much difference? I guess what I'm asking here is doing a Series I "not done" or can it be a good choice? I notice most threads are about Series II and can't get a sense of the merits (or lack of them) for Series I with it's original tranny. Oh, and that's the other thing. Tranny. I don't understand what trannies come with what. Is the 4T60-E probably what I already have in the 91 Park Avenue? Or is it likely something else I would 'not' want to just install as-is like I'm thinking. Anyone have a referal link with that type of info? Anyway, soon as I decide, learn more, find enough links to decide, I'll decide. Lots of comments, please! Thanks again, Very Great Thread... and yes, we ARE waiting to see pix of this famous paint scheme!! Michael, Inspired!

Michael, thanks for the kind words and allow me to give you my opinion...

Being a 91 3800, there are two versions. The vin C 165hp version and the vin L TPI 170hp version. Both engines are SFI and either would be a good choice in a Fiero. Yes, the Series II does make more power, but the Series I 3800 is going to be a nice improvement over the stock 2.8L the Fiero came with, especially in the torque department. In fact, you can simply transplant the whole drivetrain including the trans right out of your 91 Park Ave. Your 91 Buick should have the 4T60 (non-electronic) tranny which means there will be less wiring involved. While the 4T60 is not as strong as the 4T60-E trans, it is still a durable unit and will hold up just fine against your 3800. The only thing to concern yourself with, is this kind of swap will give you slightly less room and will weigh slightly more compared to if you use a Series II engine. But I have done a Series I SC swap before and it will still fit just fine. In fact you can use all of the mounting and assy drive cues I have used on this swap to help you. Let me know if you have any other questions. But yes, your 91 powertrain will still be a nice improvement over stock.

Michael, I'm just finishing up a '93 N/A engine swap with a manual trans. I have a '94 3800/4T60E on my list next (wife's car) and I think it will be a LOT easier than the manual. MUCH easier to keep the engine and tranny from the donor vehicle. The engine fits fine, here's an in-progress pic from quite a while back:

And one other thing I'll point out about the Series I N/A is that the torque numbers are only down 5-10 ft-lbs from the Series II. The horsepower is 30-35 lower, but I'm more of a believer in torque numbers. The Series II is a more advanced and efficient engine, but the 3800 S1 N/A is a pretty decent choice for a Fiero, too.

I agree

I'ts still fun to drive

again great work

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http://formula.cryptnix.com

quote Originally posted by Crow: I agree I'ts still fun to drive

Crow, that has got to be one of the cleanest Series I 38oo I have even seen.

Credit to you, and great work.

quote Posted by A.Bejcek: I dunno dude, I was pissed when I got 22 after beating on my 3100 / 4T60E

Yea, I'm seeing about 25 with a 38oo SC mated to the Getrag. What are the guys that are doing to get the "so called" 3o'ish MPG on the highway?

I will attest to Darth's ( Ryan's ) skill first hand. I was having PROM issues w/ my OBD I conversion, and all I can say is that the "Darth PROM" that is in there now really likes the new motor & my lead foot.
You really should have seen the look on the sales & service guy's faces when I pulled into Kitahara Pontiac!

--Allen

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quote Originally posted by mcaanda: Yea, I'm seeing about 25 with a 38oo SC mated to the Getrag. What are the guys that are doing to get the "so called" 3o'ish MPG on the highway? --Allen [/COLOR]

have to keep your foot out of it.. I have a few people that can honestly say I'm seeing 33.6+ mpg it's hard to not have a little fun when your cruising along. My dad witnessed the MPG and got sick, he's like the car is unbelievably fast and you get that kind of MPG?! and my friend with a 3100 cutlass was a little freaked on the gas mileage.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Michael, thanks for the kind words

I REALLY appreciate your thread and making the effort to post information as you went along. As you already know,
some of it was super hot tips and I'm sure many of us are jotting down notes. Well, copying and pasting :-)

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Being a 91 3800, there are two versions. The vin C 165hp version and the vin L TPI 170hp version. Both engines are SFI and either would be a good choice in a Fiero. Yes, the Series II does make more power, but the Series I 3800 is going to be a nice improvement over the stock 2.8L the Fiero came with, especially in the torque department. In fact, you can simply transplant the whole drivetrain including the trans right out of your 91 Park Ave.

That is what I was thinking to do, grab the whole thing, don't even open the valve covers. I'd replace the water pump while it's out, but I did that a few years ago. Might do it again.

Is the "C" and the "L" in the middle of the VIN? My VIN has a slanted "L" looking thing right in the middle of it.

But I also assumed that the stock auto couldn't handle the 3800 but I have a how-to page open on my PC that keeps the stock auto tranny (which I just realized appears to be Darth's page):
http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/fmods.htm (that's a framed page, the actual site is http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/ )
and so it's interesting to me because I have no way to fabricate mounts, no welder, and it looks to me, being a novice, that keeping the Fiero auto tranny means two less mounts to create?
He also says: "The 4T60-E transaxle was left behind, because we lacked the resources necessary to install it into the Fiero." yikes.. what resources? Fabricating mounts is my guess.

Perhaps that's a moot point because I'm going to be putting this into an 87 GT 5-speed or maybe even my wife's 86 GT 4-speed, though it only needs clutch work.
In any rate, right, use the entire engine/trans assembly.

Finding a Fiero tranny just because it has the mounts seems like a bad way to go... unless of course, I DO "lack the resources necessary to install it into the Fiero" too! Yikes! Anywho....

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Your 91 Buick should have the 4T60 (non-electronic) tranny which means there will be less wiring involved. While the 4T60 is not as strong as the 4T60-E trans, it is still a durable unit and will hold up just fine against your 3800. The only thing to concern yourself with, is this kind of swap will give you slightly less room and will weigh slightly more compared to if you use a Series II engine. But I have done a Series I SC swap before and it will still fit just fine. In fact you can use all of the mounting and assy drive cues I have used on this swap to help you. Let me know if you have any other questions. But yes, your 91 powertrain will still be a nice improvement over stock.

Thanks.
Ah, that brings up one more thing that's been sticking in the back of my mind.
The idea is that I've been thinking that throwing in the working-fine Series I setup, that I'd have done all the major work and could easily later swap that one for something better -- that all the mounts and axles etc would have been done.

But now I'm wondering if that is all that true? Perhaps the 4T60 and 4T60-E have different mounts or pehaps my new 4T60 mounts won't be correct if I later try to put in a Series II?
That'd be a drag if this motor dies.

I have to say I'll probably just go for it, with what I have, but some of these question might shift me into finding a Series II. After all, my Series I has 210K on it, working fine, but in a few years.....I'll be looking for a new motor again, unless I'm very very lucky. I wonder if these things go another 60K? Right now it doesn't burn oil, and the atuo tranny shows no signs of oddness.
But it does appear to me that unless all 4T60 mounts are the same, I might want to face the fact that come change-out time, I *might* be wishing I'd gone with a Series II in the first place.
But like I said, I think I'm going with what I got. But I *really* appreciate the info you guys are giving me so I "go in" informed and confident.

Thanks again!
Michael

[This message has been edited by MichaelWalsh (edited 08-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by MichaelWalsh: I don't have a welder nor do I already know anybody with one. I'd love to find the mounts for doing a stock Series I engine/autotranny insert. Michael

Hi Me,

Whelp, here's my current decision.
Clear out the garage, push the cool-factory-blue 87 GT in and pull the cradle.
Once I have that, compression test on my Series I, and some more answers about mounts, I'm sure I'll have a new perspective on the whole thing.

I might even "rebuild" the 87/5sp for putting in the 86. the 87's motor is fairly fine except of rusted ribs on the pulleys and of course, do the valve seals. Yeah, that might be an excellent solution.

I really don't want to be "taking over" this thread with all my posts, so I hope all my comments are ok with ya'll. Just felt that, after all that posting, that I let you know I'm going for cradle extraction. Maybe I'll start my own thread once it's about to be removed and go on from there. I'll invite posters here to come 'help'.

Geeze I hope I don't have to go buy a welder! :-)

Thanks again All,
Michael

[This message has been edited by MichaelWalsh (edited 08-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by mcaanda: Yea, I'm seeing about 25 with a 38oo SC mated to the Getrag. What are the guys that are doing to get the "so called" 3o'ish MPG on the highway? I will attest to Darth's ( Ryan's ) skill first hand. I was having PROM issues w/ my OBD I conversion, and all I can say is that the "Darth PROM" that is in there now really likes the new motor & my lead foot. You really should have seen the look on the sales & service guy's faces when I pulled into Kitahara Pontiac! --Allen [/COLOR]

Allen, thanks for the props and in reply to your 30-ish MPG inqury, that low 20's MPG firgure I shot off earlier was vehicle testing and tuning gas mileage. I had this same engine in my 87 coupe before I did the turbo engine and it got 33mpg on the highway no sweat. This one should be even better considering this trans has 3.06 gears which will keep the RPMs slightly lower on the highway compared to when it was in my car.

With my turbo 3800, I just got 28mpg traveling to MIS this weekend with RAREW66 and our combined luggage and tools. I am really considering putting the EGR valve back on my engine because I believe it will boost my gas mileage by as much as 1-2 mpg. I want my 30mpg mileage back! But still, 28mpg in a low 12-sec car isn't too bad, is it?

quote Originally posted by nitro: Any other identification on that alt that could help lead me to discover where it came from? I really like that mounting point in the back of your alt better then then mine. I suppose either would work, just yours looks better.

Sorry for the long delay in me getting out this info, I just verified the alternator I used on this swap is the same one that was factory equipment on a 1997 C1500 with the 4300 vin W V6 engine. The alternator is rated at 100amps.

Hey Darth, can you colaborate on the transmission shifter linkage mod a bit more? I would really appreciate it.

Kris

Bump for an answer.

quote Originally posted by shop_rat45: Bump for an answer.

sorry bout that I have been really busy lately. As far as the shift linkage I did something similar to the 440T4 shifter mod for the Fiero which you can find at http://spacecoastfieros.com/tech/440-4T60/

However, the 3800 Series II exhaust crossover/rear manifold runs really close to the shift linkage and I had to shorten and re-weld the shift lever so the linkage would clear the exhaust.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: sorry bout that I have been really busy lately. As far as the shift linkage I did something similar to the 440T4 shifter mod for the Fiero which you can find at http://spacecoastfieros.com/tech/440-4T60/ However, the 3800 Series II exhaust crossover/rear manifold runs really close to the shift linkage and I had to shorten and re-weld the shift lever so the linkage would clear the exhaust.

Thanks Darth. People like you are what makes this forum great. I'd give you another + if I could.

Kris

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Wow, been a long time since I've been on here (I'm taking part 2 and part 3 chiropractic national boards this weekend and have kept my time consumed by studying).

Anyway just wanted to let you all know that I've been driving this car quite a bit and have to say it is a BLAST!!!

I've even scared the heck out of myself already...It was raining and I was at a major intersection between to main roads the road I was headed onto was two lanes each direction with a large grassy median between. Well I stomped on the gas a little too much and the torque took over! Let's just say at the end of my donut I was looking the wrong way waiting for cars to start coming at me! I managed to pull off on the shoulder before colliding with anyone and laughing hysterically did a u-turn and went on to meet friends for dinner. I didn't stop laughing until the end of the first margarita.

My gas mileage has been difficult to measure because everytime I fill it up and drive I always hit my trip odometer. My gas gauge is goofy and so you can never tell how much gas I truly have so it always looks low, so my dear husband drives my car and fills it (I'm not complaining) without hitting the trip odometer...so I'll have to get back to you on this matter...but I do think I get pretty good (in the thirties) mileage when I drive. I have to say I am pleasantly surprised at how much power this car does have and though you can tell it is not in the same arena as Darth's car, it is darn zippy! I think I may be going to the Buick, Olds, Pontiac race day at Cordova Raceway on Oct. 9th so I will post my 1/4 mile time here...I know it won't be in the 12's but it should be a respectible score. Well I've procrastinated enuf, gotta go back to studying.

Adjuster, sounds like you've got a pretty cool set of wheels on your hands. Congrats! Looking forward to hearing more about the mileage and of course, the 1/4 mile times!

You two keep up the good work!

did some highway driving with this car and here are the gas mileage results:

35 mpg, mostly 65-75mph driving with a very slight amount of in-town stop and go.

very nice!

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: I guess that is basicly what FieroX is doing a 3800SC block with NA intake + turbo

actually I have a 3800 SC block, heads and lower intake that is modified to allow for my custom upper turbo intake.
I just wish my tranny agreed to the power my turbo setup is making