I did a search of the forum for info on how to solve my clutch problems. I came accross a lot of good information, including a link to some instructions from Archie: http://www.v8archie.com/arch4.htm

Here are my clutch symptoms:
A) The car moving when starting the engine with the trans. in gear and the clutch pushed in.
B) Hard to shift into any gear, especially reverse or 1st. with the engine running.
D) You can get in gear but it grinds.
E) You push the pedal all the way to the floor to engage.

I don't know if it is important, but my clutch has been slipping when it engages recently. This is a Getrag 5 speed on an 88.

I tried to follow the instructions, but I'm afraid that I don't know what I'm doing. Here's what I did:

I first checked the simple stuff
- check fluid level in reservior (it's not high, and not near the "min" mark)
- check for aluminum pedal; magnet says no
- the clutch pedal doesn't appear to be bent
- the banjo is mounted right side up
- check for obvious leaks
- check to see if the slave cylinder rod travels and holds its distance while the pedal is held down

So I decided to bleed the clutch... what can it hurt? Hmm.

I tried following Archie's instructions, repeating steps 6-9 a few times. The fluid level in the reservior dropped, but never got too low. Each time I repeated the steps, there was less and less travel in the rod coming from the slave cylinder. So, I did the last steps. I removed the bleeding screw and pushed in the slave cylinder rod (no fluid came out). I put the screw back in. Now when I push the pedal there is *zero* resistance, and the slave cylinder rod doesn't travel at all.

I don't think I got it right. Help please?

quote I tried following Archie's instructions, repeating steps 6-9 a few times. The fluid level in the reservoir dropped, but never got too low. Each time I repeated the steps, there was less and less travel in the rod coming from the slave cylinder. So, I did the last steps. I removed the bleeding screw and pushed in the slave cylinder rod (no fluid came out). I put the screw back in. Now when I push the pedal there is *zero* resistance, and the slave cylinder rod doesn't travel at all.

proper bleeding abridged:
1) have someone pump the clutch three times and hold it down to the floor
2) have someone else (you can do this too) loosen the bleeder screw while the pedal is down. when fluid stops coming out tighten the screw down then tell the person holding the pedal down to let it back up
3) check fluid level. Add more liberally.
4) repeat 1-3 until the fluid coming out of the bleeder valve stops looking milky (until there is no air left in the line).

Also: never reuse the fluid that comes out of the bleeder valve.

If you need fluid, dot 10 break fluid works fine.

Less rod travel = less pressure building. No rod travel = no pressure at all. You probably have air in your line somewhere if you’re not building pressure. It's also possible that you may have a dead master/slave cylinder - look around for a leak. The easiest way to do this is to fill up the reservoir with liquid and have someone pump the clutch 5-10 times while you watch both the slave and master cylinders. If you see liquid coming out of either, the cylinder will need to be replaced (in my rx7 when my slave went, it would spit fluid everywhere after 5 or so pumps of the clutch petal. The petal had no resistance for those pumps). If your master/slave are fine and you bleed the system again only to find no pressure, you probably have a hole in your clutch line somewhere.

Good luck and keep us posted

I have tried all manners of bleeding the clutch with my 88GT with the late model clutch master. The only thing that has worked is a vacuum pump. I got the same result you did when using the "Archie" method. On my '84 with the early model master the "Archie" method works fine.

Do NOT pump the clutch pedal! The clutch master cylinder has some kind of bleed back circuit. Pumping the clutch pedal will only break large air bubbles into smaller ones. I've had good luck with gravity bleeding. Jack up the front of the car so that the master cylinder is higher than the slave cylinder. First, make sure that the master is full of fluid. Then go back and open the bleeder screw on the slave. You may have to remove it completely...I did. Stay at the ready with more clean, unused brake fluid to top off the master cylinder reservoir, and DO NOT let it run dry! I let it run for 10 minutes or so. Reinstall the bleeder screw. At this point, you can try to bleed the slave as per Archie's website, but I've never had any luck doing that. Give it a try...if it's still spongy, remove the bleeder screw, and run more brake fluid through it, until you get a firm pedal. I've also done this to bleed my rear brake calipers when nothing else would work. Good luck.

make sure you look at the pedal also if it looks like the pics on archies site swap it out

Easiest way to do this:
park on a level surface, or with the rear of the car higher,
remove bleeder screw
wait

Its that easy, its called gravity bleeding, the air rises to the top, and out, the fluid will eventualy start running out the slave when the air is gone

OR

the fast way, crack the bleeder, push the slave rod in until fluid comes out, close bleeder, slowly release slave, repeat until no air comes out.

Those are the best ways to bleed, assuming you're just getting out air, not replaceing the line or something

PLEASE, check the one thing that is not on your list of things you've checked. How about the "clutch release arm lever" attached to the outside of the gearbox. I didn't realize mine was broken until i unbolted it and had the broken piece fall into my hand. It was the original stamped steel version, switched to cast and all clutch problems that you have discribed went away.

ive used this technique, it works. reliable as gravity. works for brakes too.
1 park car on level ground, slave LOWER than master.
2 check that master reservoir has fluid.
2 open bleeder screw, use a cup or can to catch drained fluid. i stick a bit of clear hose on the bleeder to direct the fluid into the cup.
3 let the fluid run, being careful to top up the master reservoir, lest it run dry and let more air in.
4 when the new, clear fluid comes out the bleeder, press the slave pushrod in to the slave cylinder repeatedly, this will force air out of the slave cyl.
5 close bleeder, top up reservoir. done.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 06-18-2004).]

lol, yea lower will work better. haha oops

I just went thru that headache 2 weeks ago. ('88 coupe)
I bled the clutch for 4 days (had the rear of the car up on ramps)
nothing worked.
I lowered the rear and put the front up on ramps, and i got it
the first time. (using Archie's method)
Good clutch=happy 19 year old daughter.

Ed

Mr Archies, bleeding method leaves a lot to be desired, not to mention i belive it is missing a couple of finer points.
Did you get time to check the clutch release lever arm yet, to see if it's broken?

quote Originally posted by CYNFIERO: Mr Archies, bleeding method leaves a lot to be desired, not to mention i belive it is missing a couple of finer points.

Could you enlighten us?

I am not quite satisfied with the way the clutch is/feels in my daughter's car.

Ed

I connected a hand vacuume pump to the bleeder and pumped the air out. You have to keep filling the master with fluid or you will pull air into the line. THEN YOU HAVE TO BLEED THE SLAVE (the book doesn't tell you this part). You have to take the bleeder fitting off, push the rod all the way into the slave and while you hold it in have a helper put the fitting back in and tighten it.I had to unbolt the bracket the slave is on to be able to push the rod in I could not grab it while it was on the car. NOTE DO NOT PUSH ON THE CLUTCH WHEN THE SLAVE IS OFF YOU CAN DAMAGE THE SLAVE. you may have to do the vacuume pump or push the rod in more than once to get it right. I tried a few differant methods and the one that worked for me was the vacuume pump and then bleed the slave.GOOD LUCK BILL

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86 FIERO V6 4SPD SE
94 JIMMY 4.3L V6

I had the same symptoms as you on my 88 Getrag and bled the clutch and it got no better. Turns out my master cylinder was bad. All the bleeding in the world won't help if your master or slave cylinder is bad.

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If you find my advice useful, then please give me a positive rating, thanks...

1988 GT (Firebird Interior),1988 Coupe (Daily Driver), 1985 SE (Project Car), 1985 Coupe (parts car), Firebird Interior Installation Website

quote Originally posted by carlstadt: I connected a hand vacuume pump to the bleeder and pumped the air out. You have to keep filling the master with fluid or you will pull air into the line. THEN YOU HAVE TO BLEED THE SLAVE (the book doesn't tell you this part). You have to take the bleeder fitting off, push the rod all the way into the slave and while you hold it in have a helper put the fitting back in and tighten it.I had to unbolt the bracket the slave is on to be able to push the rod in I could not grab it while it was on the car. NOTE DO NOT PUSH ON THE CLUTCH WHEN THE SLAVE IS OFF YOU CAN DAMAGE THE SLAVE. you may have to do the vacuume pump or push the rod in more than once to get it right. I tried a few differant methods and the one that worked for me was the vacuume pump and then bleed the slave.GOOD LUCK BILL

This is what I love about Pennock's. I was really bummed about not getting this to work, and you guys have helped me think I can do it again.

I think my problem was that the fluid in the master had gotten low enough to let air in. I think I've bled that out pretty well now, but I'm having problems getting a hold of the slave rod. Is the best way to get a grip on that to disconnect the slave cylinder?

quote Originally posted by Daniel87GT: I'm having problems getting a hold of the slave rod. Is the best way to get a grip on that to disconnect the slave cylinder?

push on the clutch actuator arm that the pushrod normally pushes against.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I had the same symptoms as you on my 88 Getrag and bled the clutch and it got no better. Turns out my master cylinder was bad. All the bleeding in the world won't help if your master or slave cylinder is bad.

How can you tell that your master or slave cylinder is bad?

Having clutch problems ?

There are basically two potential problems with any clutch system. 1st is "no pull" and 2nd is no disengagement.

"No pull" is always mechanical, and is usually the disc worn down or the friction material missing. Requires replacement. Smart thing is to also replace the plate and the release bearing, since it is so much work to remove the transaxle.

Worn disc is caused by long term use (slippage), abusive use(slippage), or a mechanical malfunction (slippage), which would be: release bearing shaft binding in its bushings, or release bearing binding on its slide collar. Both conditions result in a partially applied plate that allows slippage (wear). All clutch replacements should include inspection/correction of these conditions, or premature wear will happen.

No disengagement is trickier, since this can be caused by hydraulic or mechanical malfunction.

Start at the begining, the pedal. It should be an inch higher then the brake. If not, then look for the standoff bracket (the squared U riveted to the pedal) to be bent. Use will bend it toward the center and toward the rear of the car (away from the clutch master cylinder). You need this inch for a full hydraulic push of fluid. This bracket can very often be bent back into shape with a large set of channel lock pliers. Much maligned pedal is seldom bent.

If there is slack at the top of the pedal, until resistance is felt, then there is also not enough push. This is usually caused by the master cylinder groument missing, or the pushrod being bent. Make sure
pushrods offset hole is in the "up" position.

While in this area (upside down on the drivers floor), pull the master cyl boot loose and check for any moisture. If any is found, then master cylinder rear seal is leaking. Replace it, unless you want a 50/50 chance on rebuilding it. Bench bleed before installing. If all is OK, then slowly have the clutch pedal
depressed, while watching the resevoir fluid (cap off). If fluid level rises any at all, then check valve in master cylinder is allowing some pressure to bypass, and you will not have a full disengagement.

This completes the mechanical and hydraulic inspection at the front.

In the rear, clear area above the slave cylinder of air intake tubes. Have the clutch slowly depressed again. Some movement of the slave cylinder is normal, but you are looking for two things. Broken mounting bracket, and length of pushrod stroke. (At this point we have removed oil pump drive shafts, drum brake adjusters, valve pushrods, various modified bolts, and a piece of broomstick, all in an attempt to get the last 1/16 of stroke.) Stroke should be at least 15/16". 7/8 will not allow full release. We measure this with the pedal depressed, tape measure against clutch lever, then read tape measure "backwards" as pedal is released. Do this several times, as it is easy for tape to slip.

If measurement is good, then so are hydraulics. If not, then pull slave cylinder boot loose to check for moisture. If found, replace slave cylinder, or the 50/50 rebuild rule applies here also. If no moisture
is found at the front or rear, you can reasonably expect that someone has replaced a unit, and not done a "proper" bleeding.

But, wait a minute! 84-86 4 spd and 5 spd Fiero's (except 86 getrag) were delivered with a stamped steel clutch lever that has a plastic block that the slave cylinder pushrod pushes against to rotate the release bearing shaft. This lever can crack where it is clamped to the shaft, and the plastic block can "push through". Many expensive clutch jobs have been done, when only this lever was the cause of" no disengagement". Replacements, 87-88, and all getrags are cast.

Further disengagement problems will be inside the bellhousing, and require removing the transaxle. On 4 spd cars, a broken/bent release bearing fork will usually make much noise and make the clutch pedal
feel as though it has a brick under it. It could be on 4 spds and will be on both 5 spds, a broken disc dampner spring, that has a piece lodged in the plate release springs, that make it feel that you are pushing against a brick.

This completes mechanical and hydraulic inspection in the back.

Our bleeding procedure is not found in Clymer, Chilton, Haynes, or Helms (Pontiac) service manuals. Therefore, must not be authorized, but has worked without fail for over 10 years.

Jack car from front about 1 foot (until master cyl is above height of slave). Remove resevoir cap. Open (not remove) bleeder on slave cyl. Gravity feed 1/2 pint of hydraulic (brake) fluid. If gravity doesn't
start fluid movement, SLOWLY depress clutch pedal until fluid starts to move. After 1/2 pint has gone through system, close bleeder.

Needle nosed vise grips work best (especially 6 cyl, which may require removal of slave cyl from bracket). Clamp vise grip pliers to slave cyl pushrod. Pull pushrod into the barrel of the slave cyl, while at the same time "cracking" the bleeder. The bleeder is at the wrong end of all three different slave cylinders. Air can be trapped at the end where the pushrod is, and must be pulled to the bleed valve.

Check resevoir after first "pull" (can be nearly empty). We repeat this 5 times, or until no more bubbles appear. After 6 times, if there is still a bubble, Start over at the clutch pedal. Step 1, along time ago.

Caution: do not shave (cut, machine) the flywheel. Hydraulic clutch systems typically have 0 to .003 clearence between the face of the release bearing and the fingers on the clutch plate. Removing material
from the flywheel will move the plate that much further away from the release bearing, perhaps causing a non-release condition. Remanufactured clutches will usually have as much as 1/16" variation in the height of the plate fingers. Also resulting in a non-release condition. If the release bearing fork is too worn, then the same applies.

Hydraulic clutch systems are called self adjusting, because they can only move a predetermined amount of fluid. The spring pressure of the plate will override the hydraulic pressure, so, extending the slave cyl pushrod length will not "adjust" the system.

Info is from The Fierofactory website

[This message has been edited by fierodave (edited 06-19-2004).]

Question for the experts: If I let the brake fluid run out of the master cylinder reservoir while bleeding, do I have to bench bleed the master cylinder again? I've never gotten the clutch hydraulics to work right on my '88 Formuls. After running about a pint through with a hand vaccuum pump and hand massaging the slave, I only have a 1/4" of slave movement.

I will be eternerally grateful for a solution to bleeding the system. If my clutch line is bent downward as it runs along the bottom of the chassis, could that make it harder to bleed?

Thanks,
Robert

quote Originally posted by Daniel87GT: How can you tell that your master or slave cylinder is bad?

I wish I had a foolproof way to figure that out but I first replaced the slave cylinder and it didn't help, then I replaced the master and that was the problem. If your car has original parts both are probably due for replacement anyway.

quote Originally posted by fierodave: Having clutch problems ? There are basically two potential problems with any clutch system. 1st is "no pull" and 2nd is no disengagement. "No pull" is always mech... [cut] ...t "adjust" the system. Info is from The Fierofactory website

Dave, have I mentioned lately that, you're the man!? Thanks for taking the time to copy in the good info form the Fierofactory's website.

[edit]
Also, I was trying to get things right today and noticed that the fluid in the master reservoir was looking pretty sludge like (despite having put a whole container through the system yesterday), whereas the stuff I was adding was pretty clear. So, I tightened up the bleeder valve to stop the flow and then took all the fluid out of the reservoir. There was a nice layer of thick grimey stuff at the buttom. After getting that all out and filling with good stuff, I tried the standard procedure with a lot more success.

I did a combination of what a lot of people have been suggesting, as follows:

- jack the front up a foot or so; once the big bubbles and sludge were gone, the height was enough that with the cap off in the front and the bleeder open in the back that fluid would just flow out
- getting the sludge out helped a ton
- a left over piece of pvc sprinkler pipe works pretty well in place of an assistant in the driver's seat (it doesn't complain that you're not done yet)
- I did several cycles of Archie's suggestion: bleeder closed: push clutch pedal to floor, open bleeder (notice air in fluid), close bleeder, let clutch out
- inbetween cycles (with the clutch out) I opened the bleeder: bubbles would come out (out is good) and then fluid because the front of the car was raised
- I did that a bunch and then bled the slave, following everyone's instructions

When I was done I was able to shift again, not have the car move forward with the clutch pedal in all the way, etc.

YEAH! Score one for Pennock's! Props to everyone who posted above me on this thread. Plus for you all!

[This message has been edited by Daniel87GT (edited 06-19-2004).]