I have a Getrag 4 speed for sale in the forum mall at https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/019419.html

I have a question. My mechanic who is 480 miles away just emailed me to say that the 4 speed I had before my 3800 conversion that he is doing--which is the one for sale--looks like a "5 speed without a fifth gear". We bought a five speed to put in my car so apparently he's saying they look the same. The trans worked as a 4 speed that was in the car that I'm selling. Isn't it true that the 4 and 5 speed Getrags both used the same housings and look the same from the outside? How do you tell the difference for sure? As I was say... my mechanic emailed me and said, "I think this is a Getag 5 speed that has no 5th gear" Is that even possilbe? Or is it most likely the four speed and it looks like a 5 speed because they used the same housing... sound like a dumb question but can someone help me out here. I just want to make sure I'm advertising the trans properly. I drove the car only about 300 miles before beginning the swap--it was trailered to it's current location. It was advertised as a 4 speed when I bought the car and worked like a 4 speed--so I'd say... It's a four speed.

Comments?

whoever told you a 4 speed was a getrag was dead wrong.

here is the run down on manual transmission fiero's (only pertains to manuals)

1984, 4 speed muncie transmission was the only manual offered, it came in two flavors, 4:10 ratio and 3:32 ratio
1985, 4 speed muncie was available only in the v6 models, and only with a 3:65 ratio, the 4cyls came with the 5 speed isuzu transmission
1986, 4 speed muncie was available for the first half of the year in the v6 models only, the second half of the year they got the getrag 5 speed, the 4cyl was the isuzu 5 speed
1987 5 speed getrag came in v6 cars only, isuzu 5 speed in the 4cyls
1988 same as 1987

If your car was a 4 speed then its a muncie
if it was v6 5 speed factory, then its a getrag

i guess there is always a chance that for some odd reason your factory getrag lost its 5th gear, and you think its a 4 speed now.....

the best way to tell, is for you to tell us where your reverse gear is located at, if its over near the drivers side and up on the shift console, then its a 4 speed, if its over near the passenger side and back then its a 5 speed.

matthew

I'm not an expert by any stretch but I do know that the term "Getrag" refers to the German company that designed the trans and "Muncie" refers to the location they were made. So, it's common to here them called "Getrag-Muncie", which is still correct. Yes?

quote Originally posted by Rocky64: I'm not an expert by any stretch but I do know that the term "Getrag" refers to the German company that designed the trans and "Muncie" refers to the location they were made. So, it's common to here them called "Getrag-Muncie", which is still correct. Yes?

No.

Both the 4spd and the 5spd were built in the Muncie plant, but the 5spd was wholely designed by Getrag in Germany whereas the 4spd was an in-house design. If you call them both Muncies you'd be correct. If you call them both Getrags you'd be incorrect. There is no such thing (in the Fiero world) as a "4spd Getrag". The Getrag nickname is used to distinguish the 5spd from the 4 spd.

JazzMan

Okay, I was confused... I just went to Rodneys site to clarify... I was right that at least the 5 speed is commonly called "muncie-getrag". I had thought that the non-japanese 4 speed was the same. I could swear I read somewhere a discussion/debate about which is stronger... the isuzus are commonly said to be weakest--came on the 4 cyls... But which is stronger, the, I guess, "muncie" 4 or 5 speeds? Seems like I read someone make the case that the 4 and 5's are in the same housing but that since there are more gears crammed in the 5 speed, it's not as sturdy. The 4 speed has more room inside so it's built up sturdier. Anyway, that must be wrong--not the same housing. And my car is titled as an '87 GT with a V6---and had a 4 speed in it. What's up with that? Could someone have taken out one of the gears? I didn't think the '87 GT came with 4 speeds... My mechanic has a 5 speed laying right next to it and says they look exactly the same... He was a GM mechanic for 17 years and can do a Fiero 3800 SC conversion with his eyes closed... well maybe not with his eyes closed... How 'bout with one arm tied behind his back? Hmmmm...
Anyway, I have some kind of Fiero thingy transmission for sale.... what ever it is, its for sale really cheap.

Yes, the 4 speeds and the 5 speed Getrag sortof "look" similar (key word "sortof"). However the 4 speed is simply not a Getrag without the 5th gear. You couldn't even use the bell housing from one to the other let alone swap guts.

4 sp or 5 sp (Isuzu or Getrag) they all bolt up to the SC3800

If the question is: "does your mechanic have a Getrag 5-spd"?
He can find out real fast with just a magnet. The Getrag has a steel plate on the backside (Driver's side) bolted onto the case.

You never answered my question, what position was the shifter in, when you were in reverse.

were you back to the right, or up to the left, that will let us know if it was a fiero 4 speed or a fiero 5 speed.

of the 4 speeds, the 3:65 had a stronger case, it was used on the v6 4 speed cars, the 4:10 and 3:32 4 speeds were only used on 4cyl cars and are said to have the weaker case, the isuzu 5 speed was also only on 4cyl cars, and are geared VERY low in 1st gear, and just isnt much fun with a high torque v6 or v8 but is well suited for a 3.4L DOHC or a stock 2.8L or something of that nature. After driving both a 4 speed and a 5 speed, of all gear ratios, If i had my chioce in my 87GT Id go with a 3:32 4 speed, with the casing from a 3:65 4 speed, (all 4 speeds use the same outter casing just use different gear sets)

matthew

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: of the 4 speeds, the 3:65 had a stronger case, it was used on the v6 4 speed cars, the 4:10 and 3:32 4 speeds were only used on 4cyl cars and are said to have the weaker case, the isuzu 5 speed was also only on 4cyl cars, and are geared VERY low in 1st gear, and just isnt much fun with a high torque v6 or v8 but is well suited for a 3.4L DOHC or a stock 2.8L or something of that nature. After driving both a 4 speed and a 5 speed, of all gear ratios, If i had my chioce in my 87GT Id go with a 3:32 4 speed, with the casing from a 3:65 4 speed, (all 4 speeds use the same outter casing just use different gear sets) matthew

I don't doubt the M17 had a stronger case, but after comparing it to a M19 it sure looks like the same case to me. Perhaps that added extra brace webbing. Gear wise, I'm sure the M17 is stronger. Although other then a couple of different ratios for 1st and 4th, they are all pretty much the same gear ratio.
Anyway, I mostly wanted to comment on the Isuzu. Yes, 1st gear is geared lower then the Getrag (3.73 compared to 3.5), however the final gearing of the Isuzu more the make up for this (the Isuzu FD is higher then the Getrag) and in the end 1st gear would be basicly the same for any engine mated to the Isuzu or Getrag. Personally I feel that neither the Isuzu or the Getrag is well suited for the 3.4 DOHC, simply because they are geared to high.

I understand they all bolt up but what flywheel would you use? I pretty much stole a 3.8L form a 1989 rivera on sat for $60. Is this an internal balanced motor? I plan on mating it to an Isuzu 5 spd in a 1985 GT.

quote Originally posted by joedirt: I understand they all bolt up but what flywheel would you use? I pretty much stole a 3.8L form a 1989 rivera on sat for $60. Is this an internal balanced motor? I plan on mating it to an Isuzu 5 spd in a 1985 GT.

The mechanic that did my swap used a 3800 Camaro flywheel and Camaro heavy duty clutch... it works fine. I think he had to have the flywheel machined to make it thinner but I don't know the specs. Beware of the Isuzu... from what I've read and heard from others while researching the swap--the 3800 has very high low-end torque and the Isuzu was intended for use with the 4 cyl engine... Is yours a supercharged 3.8L? They aren't known to hold up well with a 3800 SC. I suppose if the car is only for occasional street use and you don't "get on it" to much, it might hold up o.k.

v8 archie uses the izuzu's on his v8 conversions, so I doubt I'll have any problem with normal to lightly-spirited driving.

quote Originally posted by joedirt: v8 archie uses the izuzu's on his v8 conversions, so I doubt I'll have any problem with normal to lightly-spirited driving.

Well, here's my 2 cents worth...

Is it a 3800 Series ll Supercharged or a non supercharged? The 3800 II SC puts out 280 ft lbs of torque from the factory and with pulley mods it is really easy to end with an engine that has HIGHER torque output than some SBC's. From what I understand, the Isuzu is factroy rated at around 225 ft lbs of torque max and the Getrag is rated at 275 ft lbs of torque. I have a 3800 that is probably putting out around 340-350 ft lbs of torque. I have it set up so that I can go to an even smaller pulley--by just doing the pulley swap I'll have a set up around 340 hp and 380 or so ft lbs of torque... But with gas prices they way they are and the fact that my car is pretty much a summer daily driver, I'm just going to keep it as is. And I would be running about 100 lbs of torque beyond the rating of the transmission. I would really feel like I'd have to drive like granny... It's fast as hell as is... I will NEVER beat on it at a track and I drive pretty reasonably. Even still, I would have never gone with an Isuzu which was intended to be used with a four banger. Since everything was out of the car and had to be put back in for the swap anyway, I figured I might as well do what most people do with these swaps... either go with the automatic that comes with the 3800---which wouldn't be as much fun to drive... or go with a muncie 4 speed or muncie-getrag 5 speed---more fun to drive. So I have a '91 Getrag 5 speed out of Beretta. The Isuzu is just too whimpy. Even if they use them with V8's I still would never use one--if only for just increaced peace of mind. To me, using the Isuzu it like cutting corners. If you're going to do a swap, I figure you might as well do it right and have no regrets. But to each his own I guess.