well this has just become pathetic...
Fierfox, all I can do is shake my head... it is the internet, you don't need to take things so personally.

I posted on here to find out, because I wanted some insight on how other people are doing the paiting. Just as you and Roger had both stated, everyone does it different. Even though we will be doing a test for ourselves, it would be nice to have a little insight before doing it outselves. And challenging what you said is NOT a bad thing. It is called a discussion, and it is a little hard to learn/perfect your methods if you never ask questions or challenge the answer. There was no need to get "pissed" as you put it. Roger replied to my brothers post normally, taking my brothers post as it should have been taken.. he explained why he was using the laquer primer, and now it makes perfect sense. He realised it wasnt a pissing contest, it was just trying to get info. "listen up sparky" just made me laugh, "Roger and I dont know what the hell we are talking about, do we" well those were your words, not my brothers, and not mine. Roger made it obvious he knows what HE is talking about... The uneducated comment was mearely about the 2k primer. Obviousely, saying that the 2k primer is made by PPG (as you thought) is being uneducated... whether it seems harsh or not is irrelevant. It is true, you didn't know... simple as that, it isnt a bad thing... YOU made it a negative statement towards you. As for the "king **** " comment... umm... the mirror broken? How is really being the rude one now? Too bad we aren't getting all "pissed" about it... afterall... this is the interent. Anyways....realistically, I shouldn't have to justify why I posted. But being that there are people like you on this forum who would rather complain about their own innability to decipher expressions over the internet, than just have a conversation and not get defensive like we are still in the school yard, I figured I should actually post and explain before I get rattled with undeserving -'s

Anyway, thanks again for the help Roger! Fierfox, thanks for the earlier help you gave... and at least you helped Fieroman87 right.. so your posting here wasnt completely pointless.

Soup

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87 GT w/T-Tops
If you like what I am contributing, please vote.

As I stated before, and apparently you were not in any kind of understanding mood, is that what bothered me was being told that my methods were completely wrong, and being called uneducated. What part did you miss? As I also mentioned, and you again haven't remembered, is that a discussion about those methods is always welcome. Someone have a different way? Great. Tell us why. I learn new things every day and I'm always looking to improve myself and my work. Don't understand why I do something? Ask. I'm happy to explain. But, when you jump the fence and tell me that I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about, you piss me off. Got that? It's that simple. Don't be rude. Can you grasp that? I'm here trying to help. What are you doing to help others?

"Maybe I came off rude, I'm a rude person and that's what rude people do."

This is his quote. I think I'm somewhat of a normal person, took offense to his rudeness, and responded in kind. Don't like it? Too bad. Get over it. I have. Maybe you both need a little lesson in manners, huh?

Mark

[This message has been edited by Firefox (edited 03-11-2004).]

I gave you a plus after the fire extinguisher thread a while back. My shop's now equipped with the right stuff.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: Hey, Roger.....how come no one ever gives me a + for helping???

I've used PPG stuff. I don't have the spec sheets for the system we use, but there's a thin primer that goes on first and then a thicker "surfacer." It's all two part epoxy. Don't know if that clears anything up. The surfacer doesn't really work all that well and you're better off sanding and glazing then putting on 3-4 layers of that.

Thank you. I hope everyone has the right fire safety equipment in their shops along with their homes.

The thin primer is probably the primer/sealer. That keeps the old finish from bleeding into the new finish and discoloring the new paint. The thicker surfacer is used to help smooth out the sanding scratches, and the two-part epoxy is what I use most of the time. It's expensive, but it doesn't shrink at all. I'm not a big fan of glazing putty, as that shrinks, too, but I do use it on occasion.

Mark

New news on the primer debate. I asked my jobber if I could put lacquer primer under chromabase (pretty common as topcoats go I would think) and he said nope, doesn't have the adhesion of 2k urethane and you're asking for trouble.

But wait, I thought, those guys on the fiero site said they've used lacquer for years, maybe my jobber is full of **** ? So I phone up DuPont, surely one of the biggest manufacturers of high quality automotive paint in the world could set me right. I ask them the same thing, and they say nope, you'll probably get chipping or other adhesion problems down the road, you want a good 2k primer.

So what the hell is lacquer good for then? Well, apparently it's good for exactly what I said it was good for: Fast and cheap. Low cost collision shops seem to like it for spot repairs, as do backyard amateurs. I'm not saying you guys don't know what you're doing, or that you do shitty work. I'm just saying you work fast and cheap, and you get what you pay for. I don't want fast and cheap, I want top quality, so I'll strip to substrate and use 2k. To each their own.

Ciao.

Oh yeah, almost forgot...

Two things.

First all the manufacturers are trying to get rid of all laquer products because of EPA regulation. Very few carrry any Laquer paints, and some states , is totally illegal to sell or use. The keep making primer because of all the painters who DO want it.

They make a LOT more money selling you the activated primer $$$$$$$ (as in do I want to sell this guy $25 worth of primer or $150?). You talk to salesmen and of course they are going to sell you their stuff. It also covers their azz, if you have any kind of paint problem down the road....It gives them an out. Cars from the begining up to the 80s ALL used laquer primer, and had JUNK paint. I dont recall many older cars peeling like they started to do in the mid 80s. I still see many 50s cars in yards with good paint on them and their 50 years old. Ask any new body / paint men, and their also going to agree with the salesmen. They dont have any knowlege of past materials. Their brainwashed by the salesmen too. Ask any painter thats been in business for 30-40 years if they like catalyzed primer. Im sorry, no matter what you are told im sticking with my laquer. Its worked fine for me for 40 years, and will continue untill they stop selling it. I can count the cars I had any problems with in all that time on 1 hand, if that. Of course, Im retiring and goofing off in a few more years anyway.

Good luck, whatever you do with yours.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 04-17-2004).]

i love this thread!

Well this post proved one thing,theres no two painters use the exact same method.
I was originaly trained in the use of acrylic laquer (30 yrs ago).In Australia nearly all car manufacturers where using it then (ford was using baked enamel).i now use 2k enamel in my work ,maybe its just me but i think 2k finishes only saving grace is that they are quicker and less labour intensive (hide a multitude of sins).Nearly all panel shops have changed to 2k smash repairs now and as far as i know only one major manufacturer still uses acrylic laquer (General Motors Holden)but i cant be convinced that thats not because they are trying to push jobs out quicker.Acrylic laquer used right can give a completely flat mirror finish which is near impossible to get with any 2k product......years ago a good job was measured by the lack of "orange peel" your finish had,its seems now the lean is towards only trying to reproduce the finish which vehicles are made with..(ie. a certain amount of "orange peel " is fine).ok thats my say.Im certain i'll get ppl disagree with me,but................btw i still use acylic primer surfacer under my 2k work,I havent found it necessary to use a 2k primer....well roll-on flamers.

The thing Iike about this forum is the different way people do things with the same end result and we disagree to agree,I will bookmark this page for future reference and I will use it to do my own paint job..... with the the expert views of every one in this post how can I go wrong thanks guys .

Hey Roger and Firefox do you do free estimates?
I want my car painted also. Years of experience with craftmanship and quality of work ALWAYS outweigh new textbook techniques. Act respectful, be respectful, but most importantly RESPECT another persons answer if YOU ASKED OR DIDNT ASK THE FREAKING QUESTION. Good thing we all are on the net, I woulda got popped in the mouth for talking like that to my elders. Kids today

I always like when people ask a question and they already have the answers. Hey Firefox just got done looking at the thread where you painted Archies award winning GT40. You should post some pictures of your work!

[This message has been edited by 2.8-4spd (edited 04-16-2004).]

Free estimates? Sure. Bring it up to the Dells Run and I'll be happy to look at her for you!

I'll step in here and add my 2 cents. I'm a 'recreational' painter. I've had some great success and have done so by listening to a lot of advice which can become very confusing at times. I agree that some have great success with methods that others think are garbage. One thing I do use instead of using a petroleum based prep wash is 3M's Plastic Prep. I use it over a lot of fibreglass and plastic. That way I don't have to worry about the warning 'don't use on plastic' on the other stuff. I too worried about having a flex agent in the paint however after I sprayed a panel that I had placed on some plastic drop cloth, I was able to pull the dry paint off the plastic in a sheet and crumple it up. I could even smooth out the sheet of paint and crumple it again without it cracking or breaking. You can't get any more flexable than that. People tend to do what works for them and therefore are more resistant to change because their reputation is a stake. If they can earn a good living with many repeat customers, they must be doing something right so why risk a change and ruin the confidence they have managed to build? My best advice, after listening to many, is follow the advice of ONE person for the complete painting process. Mixing advice for each step can bring in the chance of some incompatabilities of products that can ruin the job.

quote Originally posted by fieroman87: ok, can you guys tell me why, when after i JUST got my nose painted that it started spidering on me and then when i had a meeting w/ a guard rail, it shattered like glass?

I think that would have been caused by bad prep. If your old paint was cracked and spidered and it was sanded and painted, what you see are the old cracks and spiders re-appearing.
The cure for this problem is to strip the old paint off down to the factory primer, chemicals may be used on all flex panels and is NOT intended for use on fiberglass or composits as it will eat the top coat of material off. Strip it to the factory primer and seal it, THEN paint it you will have better results.

All high build primers, with or without an activator (including medium build) are designed to hide slight imperfections in the work of the primerd piece or car. (rough edges, poor feathering, deep scratches and that stuff) I have done my own share of painting since the early 70's and do things almost the same as Roger and Mark an get the same results. Flex agent is a big + . . . . IF you paint the car with the panels off and intend on installing on the vehicle later. The flex agent in this case will work as a protector for the new paint for the next couple of days at most, after that it serves no purpose except that the paint manufactures have something that you NEED (supports their need for more $$$) that you don't need to use but they need to get rid of.

Different strokes for different folks. Do what you feel will work best for you, it's your job to do so do it well.