Well, I had a thread going trying to figure out why my 87 4cyl coupe wouldn't start. With everyones help (thanks again everyone), I narrowed down the problem to broken/cracked timing gears (motor cranks but rockers don't move). I bought this car dirt cheap because it wouldn't start. It's in great condition with only 86000 miles

Anyway, I figured I would start a new thread for good advice on changing my timing gears. I've printed and read the writeup in Ogre's cave and it is VERY helpful, but since I'm far from being a mechanic, I have some questions before I begin and will likely need advice/support along the way.

First things first. Today I jacked up the car, removed the rear passenger tire along with the inner "splash guards?". It looks like I'm definitely going to have to drop the motor a bit to get to these gears.

So, here's my "plan of attack" :

1) I'll have to remove the cradle bolts in the rear (trunk area).
2) Disconnect things like hoses/wires/etc. that may get pulled as engine is dropped.
3) Lower cradle while pulling up on car frame (I'll use jacks on the cradle)

At this point (correct me if I'm wrong) the motor/cradle will be pivoting on the front cradle connections. I'm assuming this will allow enough clearance for me to get to the timing gears.

So will this work, or will I have to disconnect the cradle from the front also and drop the whole thing? I'd rather not have to do that, but if I have no choice, so be it.

I guess my current issue is the fact that I know how to change the timing gears but don't necessarily know how to go about gaining access to them

thanks
Dave

Not sure if this helps much, but I did the same thing several years ago- I bought an '84 that wouldn't start because it needed a nylon gear. As I recall, I didn't have to drop the cradle at all. I got to it from beneath and from the side by removing the inner fender well liner. The only real detail that I can remember is don't be afraid to tighten the cam gear down nice and snug. If you leave it loose, it'll rub on the cover and you'll have to take it apart and do it again. After I got it fixed it was a pig so I sold it.

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85GT 3.4TDC in progress
http://www.thestewartconnection.com/fiero/fiero.html

Here is my write up....
http://michiganfieroclub.org/l4-timinggear.htm

It is a PAIN, but can be done with engine in car. The hardest part I had was removing old gear. putting on new one took some work. I would just say to be careful.

J.

Put the Fiero up on jack stands just in front of the cradle (butt in the air). Remove the right rear wheel. Suspend up the brake caliper up with baling wire. Remove the E brake cable. Mark the shock mount to spindle with white out to put it back together perfectly for your alignment then remove the spindle. Remove the splash guard. Put a floor jack under the right side of the cradle and take the weight off of it. Take off any wires, hoses that go from the side wall to the motor and couldn't be stretched. Remove the fan belts. Unbolt the motor bolt of the dogbone and rotate it up. Loosen the right front and rear cradle bolts while lowering the cradle down, finally removing the bolts. This will sag the right side of your engine down and make working on the nose end of the engine easy. It may be necessary to remove the alternator support bracket. Remove the crankshaft pulley and hub. Remove the oil pan front cover bolts. Remove the timing gear cover and oil seal... if necessary, use a sharp razor blade to cut the front seals that are between the timing cover and the oil pan. (Get a new oil seal.) Check your timing gears for damage and wear. I always rotate the motor so I have the timing marks aligned and then, cleaning the gear off, I mark them with white out to make them really visible. If your cam moves on you, remove the valve cover on top of the engine and loosen the rocker arm bolts so the pressure is off the cam. If not, your are OK. As you are pulling the bad gear, notice that the gears slide together by slightly rotating. Don't mess this up wen you put them back together. Put everything back together and re-adjust your valves. Hope this works well for you.

Gary

I would reccomend getting a Cloyes Steel cam gear set from the Fiero store or try at a local parts store. They dont use that nylon gear, that is weak. Up here they are less than $10 more than the nylon gears, and alot better.

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Details on my Fiero here
Member of the Edmonto Fiero Club Please rate me if I helped you!

the tough part is getting the old gear off,if i remember right i had to cut/break the fibre off of the steel and i am not sure if i had to split the steel hub or was able to get a puller on it.Before you do anything to the fibre gear tap the center hole in the camshaft with a3/8-16 tap then you can use a peice of threaded rod with a long nut,some washers and a big socket to press the new gear on if you take the gear off first then you have to devise a way to hold the cam while you thread the hole.Do Not hammer the gear on.if you replace with a steel or aluminum gear(used to be available from Mercruiser)heat the gear in boiling water for a while before you try to put it on.Pull the gear on with the threaded rod & nut until you can just get a .025 feeler guage between the hub and the thrust plate.you will have to bend the blade and work thru the hole in the new gear.This job is no fun i did it some years ago in a gravel parking lot,but if you have no facilitys to get the engine out you dont have much choice,even if you get the engine out you still hane to do the same job,or you can use them factory method and remove the cam after thee rocker arms push rods,lifters and distributer, and then use a press to remove/replace the gear.Dont forget to use rags ect;to keep the trash out of the oil pan.The crank gear will come off with a puller easily.i reused the crank gear and a new fibre gear and the car was still going strong a few years later when i sold the car. my $.02

When I replace these gears, I use a hammer and chisel to remove the fiber cam gear outer section. I have the benefit of a air chisel, so I chisel the metal part off. Otherwise you will have to use the old fashioned method and chisel by hand. There is a retainer behind the cam gear that holds the cam in position. It is made of cast iron and breaks rather easily, but can cheaply be obtained from a GM dealership if you break it.

I also absolutely recommend the steel gears.

This is how I put the cam and crank gears back on......so easy it makes me smile. Get them aligned like you want them......remember they will move because they are a tapered gear. Figure out how much they will move so that you can get it exact when you place them on the shafts.

You can do this ahead of time and it's the most I think......lol. Put the gears in the freezer overnight.......yep.....that's right......freeze those suckers, or if it's colder than your freezer outside.....lol.....leave them outside overnight. This of course expands the metal and makes them quite easy to slip onto the cam and crankshafts. Lightly lube the cam and crankshaft gears and slide them into place. Have a hammer handy just in case you need to gently nudge them into place. You can now go ahead and replace the front cover gasket, seat.....etc. The 2.5 rockers don't need to be adjusted like the 2.8 do. Torque each of them down to 20ft lbs. I highly suggest that you use the original GM rocker cover gasket instead of even felpro.....which is my favorite. For some reason, they seem to hold up better than any other kind. Whichever kind you get, expect it to start leaking eventually. It is due mainly to a poor design of the head. It has no sides that come up to hold the oil in the head until it drains back into the pan. The only thing keeping oil from draing out of the head is the gasket. Again......poor design. If you own your 2.5 for very long you will get used to changing valve cover gaskets. Just part of owning one. Hope I've helped you and if you have any more questions, feel free to email. Good luck!

Phil

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87 FIERO GT 2.8 5spd

If you found my advice helpful, please take the time to give me a positive rating. Thanks

quote Originally posted by GTDude: freeze those suckers, or if it's colder than your freezer outside.....lol.....leave them outside overnight. This of course expands the metal and makes them quite easy to slip onto the cam and crankshafts.

it's been my experience that freezing things (except water) makes them contract, not expand.

I'm in for this too. I've always seen pepople heat up gears in a rear axle pumpkin to make it ever so slightly larger and just slide on and then when it cools it contracts onto the shaft.

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Notchbacks RULE

"It's cool to have a car you just have to look back at."

Two things:

1) Theogre has an excellent detailed procedure for this in his cave. Through the wheel well. No craddle dropping. Thanks Theo.

2) For heating up the gears an old waffle iron or George Foreman grill works great. Wear gloves!

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Dwayne Mohr
84 SC Red
87 GT 5sp Silver
(Member under various names since 2001)

thanks for all the advice...this really helps

I'll probably get to this when the weather is a bit better. I'm in no hurry since I have 2 other running Fieros.

GT Dude : Freezing them makes sense to me too. I would think the metal gears would contract and therefore the center holes of each would become a bit larger in diameter making them easier to slip on the shafts...definitely good advice. Thanks for the email option...you may be getting a few while I work on this thing.

thanks again everyone

I'll update this post as I work on it

Dave

DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.............LOL. ALL I can say is that I have the flu and look at the time of the post. You will of course, have to heat the gears in the oven. I knew it had something to do with the kitchen...............LOL. Just goes to show ya....I'm stupid.........LOL.

Phil

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87 FIERO GT 2.8 5spd

If you found my advice helpful, please take the time to give me a positive rating. Thanks

I figured that's what you meant. Otherwise you would be the first person ever to say freeze them .

Before I put them in the oven, would a little olive oil and some salt/pepper help? LOL

Dave

I have an old toaster oven that I use for gear/parts heating. It is portable so it goes to the job.

Don't even think about using the fiber gears for replacement.

If you use the George Foreman the Olive oil just runs off so don't bother!

quote Originally posted by GTDude: DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.............LOL. ALL I can say is that I have the flu and look at the time of the post. You will of course, have to heat the gears in the oven. I knew it had something to do with the kitchen...............LOL. Just goes to show ya....I'm stupid.........LOL. Phil

DUDE,
Careful with that cough syrup. In fact, you should probably avoid using the stove until you get to feeling better.
Get well soon.

jp

Only had about an hour, but I started the job today. Removed the dogbone, then removed the 2 cradle bolts on the passenger side (they came of easily...I didn't expect that). I disconnected anything that may get yanked when the motor is lowered. I lowered the cradle with hydraulic jacks (one on each unbolted end). It came down nicely and lowered the motor a good 6 to 8 inches. I can easily get to the timing gears now. I was thinking I would have to disconnect the wheel assembly at the lower ball joint or at the top of the spring top move it, but I don't think it's in the way now.

I'm going to remove the harmonic balancer tomorrow...hopefully the center bolt doesn't give me too much grief. After that, it's the timing gears.

I'll get back on it tomorrow I hope...depends on how long I'm at work. Thanks to everyone again. This is going much easier with all the good advice.

Dave

Ok, I know this may be a stupid question,but I want to make sure. I have both gears off. When I put on the new ones, should the notches in the cam and crank be pointing at eachother for correct timing (notch on crank at about 11 o'clock, and notch on cam at about 5 ?
thanks

Dave

Yes, the timing marks should line up. If they don't your valve timing will be off and the car won't run. If I remember correctly, with the marks lined up the engine will be in the #4 cyl firing position, that is, the distributor rotor should point to #4 plug wire.

quote Originally posted by SKIDMARK: Yes, the timing marks should line up. If they don't your valve timing will be off and the car won't run. If I remember correctly, with the marks lined up the engine will be in the #4 cyl firing position, that is, the distributor rotor should point to #4 plug wire.

thanks,

that's what I thought, just wanted to make double sure before putting it all back together. I don't have to worry about the distributor, my car has DIS

Dave

quote Originally posted by ditch: thanks, that's what I thought, just wanted to make double sure before putting it all back together. I don't have to worry about the distributor, my car has DIS Dave

The last one I did was an 85 with a distributor. I forgot they upgraded the 87 to DIS.

with 2 right side cradle bolts removed, and cradle dow 6-8 inches, will cam come out of motor??? want to put upgrade cam in while changing broken gears>>>>

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86 econo coupe-ground stompin' stroker 4 cyl, 88 rear cradle, koni's with coil overs, lowered 3 inches, mr2 spoiler on decklid. e-mail ossum1@hotmail.com

quote with 2 right side cradle bolts removed, and cradle dow 6-8 inches, will cam come out of motor???

It should. When I replaced the timing gears in my '87 SE, I lowered the cradle a little so I could get the camshaft out. I had the cam gear replaced at a machine shop.

Dont worry if you cant find metal gears the fibre one will last 75000 miles anyway and thats probably longer than the rest of the engine will go if it already has 80000 on it even if you keep it that long.
its also a little quieter. my $.02

quote Originally posted by mvstar: Dont worry if you cant find metal gears the fibre one will last 75000 miles anyway and thats probably longer than the rest of the engine will go if it already has 80000 on it even if you keep it that long. its also a little quieter$.02

Plastic is exactly the way I went, and for the reasons you have. I hear they're quieter...also, after another 80,000 miles, I'll probably be ready for a motor rebuild/swap anyway

After I had the 2 cradle bolts off that side of the motor dropped quite a bit. I would say it is no problem to remove the cam then. Let me tell you, dropping one side is a piece of cake. Heck, doing the timing gears was a piece of cake as well...at least I can look back on it and say it wasn't as complicated as it sounds. Only part that sucked was doing it outside in the winter with snow everywhere.

I've been driving this car (my first duke) for a few months now and I love it. Not exactly a performance machine, but that's ok...with the high gas prices it's a great car to have....also, I paid $300 for this car and got it running for less than $50 (and some of my blood), so I'm not losing any sleep

Dave

Edit: with this thread popping up again, people are going to think I'm still working on it

[This message has been edited by ditch (edited 04-21-2004).]