I was wondering if anyone here has put s Turbo on a newer Gen III 3400 engine. I've done a search here and only found older iron head engines being done.
I've read a little on Dennis's site, but I am looking for some first hand experience. I bought a newer 3400 with 17K and the IHI RHB6 turbo with intercooler to match up. The Gen III heads flow 30% better as well as a better intake. The plan is to make my Meecham scoops functional on both sides. Passinger side will be the intake the Drivers side for the intercooler.
I know I'm going to run into some problems going from ECM to PCM with the 5 speed and then the turbo issue on top of it.
I guess I should say never say never, because I never would have believed I would do a turbo, much less on a newer 3400 engine. I have a extra set of Gen III heads and a older 95-96 Camaro block on top of the engine I bought from Jack to play with.
I want to hear everyones thoughts on this since I finally have committed myself now on the 3400 engine.
Earl R.
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10:49 PM
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Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
Be forwarned, as nice as that engine is, the compression is still 9.5:1. You cannot run much boost at all with that. You also will not be able to lower the compression without custom pistons since the 3400 pistons are already heavily dished. They have REALLY small combustion chambers on those heads. The custom pistons would require about another 8-10 CC's to be taken out to get the compression ratio to a milder 8.5:1 or so.
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10:56 PM
Inferno Member
Posts: 423 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Registered: Nov 2003
They say they are getting 264 whp and 284 wtq @ 9psi
Look at the headers on that engine, very sweet.
For more than a year I've been battling this issue with myself, (and have the black eyes to prove it hellofa fight) anyway now to make it happen. Thanks for the replies.
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11:18 PM
Mar 12th, 2004
hoola47 Member
Posts: 526 From: London, Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
I also have an IHI RHB6 turbo that has not been installed, on my 2.8 that is. I think it may be too small for that engine, as I've been told that although it is small and has little to no lag at all, you won't get huge horsepower numbers out of it. I believe its the same one that was used on the old Design one systems? Any thoughts.
------------------ 1986 Pontiac Fiero GT Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, Best 1/4 = 16.1 at 83mph, mods, wires, CRX intake, and power pulley. Planning Turbo 2.8 swap for a little more umph!!!!
Bought for 2500$ Canadian.
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12:37 AM
hoola47 Member
Posts: 526 From: London, Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
My bad, I have the smaller RHB5 from a ford...what type of horsepower number's are you thinking you will get?
------------------ 1986 Pontiac Fiero GT Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, Best 1/4 = 16.1 at 83mph, mods, wires, CRX intake, and power pulley. Planning Turbo 2.8 swap for a little more umph!!!!
I didn't want a large turbo for the reasons Fieroobsessed mentioned, the compression is 9.5:1 and if you've looked at a Gen III the chamber is small with the dished pistons for valve clearence. So if I was getting 5 lbs of boost I would be happy. Most of what I've seen are the T-3 and T-4 garrett turbos which I do think would be to much for a Gen III 3.4 aluminum head engine. This engine is stock 200 hp so a lttle more boost to get me in the 250 hp range is fine.
Anyone have the calculations for this?
Thanks,
Earl
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02:59 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
A small turbo will help response and if you don't need much boost it may work, but don't let it end up being a restriction. You may be better off with a slightly larger turbo and using the wastegate to keep the boost under control.
Oh, and the 3400SFI is rated at 170HP - 185HP depending on which application. In my 99 Grand Am, it's rated at 175HP, I believe. It's rated 185HP in the Montana minivan.
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08:46 AM
hoola47 Member
Posts: 526 From: London, Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
I agree that my IHI is not the biggest turbo, but they do create boost relatively low, 2000rpm's and continue till around 6000rpms, not 4500 as someone stated, just what the fiero needs, a little more horse for the torque. I'm not expecting huge performance numbers, but an additional 75hp on my 2.8 will keep me plenty happy till I can afford something dangerous in my later years. I too have an intercooler, to make sure no hot air is going to the engine, and also to cool things down. Ideally I'd want 200hp at the wheels, with more torque to go with my 5 speed, but even if that's crank hp, its going to be a big improvment over 140ish.
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10:22 AM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I agree that my IHI is not the biggest turbo, but they do create boost relatively low, 2000rpm's and continue till around 6000rpms, not 4500 as someone stated, just what the fiero needs, a little more horse for the torque. I'm not expecting huge performance numbers, but an additional 75hp on my 2.8 will keep me plenty happy till I can afford something dangerous in my later years. I too have an intercooler, to make sure no hot air is going to the engine, and also to cool things down. Ideally I'd want 200hp at the wheels, with more torque to go with my 5 speed, but even if that's crank hp, its going to be a big improvment over 140ish.
Don't get your hopes too high for a turbo 2.8, the highest i've ever seen on the stock engine is 200 HP. now the intercooler will help, but you won't make 200 WHP, 200 crank is reasonable so that's what i would expect. also, i think that the ones getting 200 crank HP were running 6-8 PSI, maybe 6 or so, but i don't think you'll get it with 5 or less.
anyway, these are just thoughts, just don't get your hopes too high and then be dissapointed.
-Fish
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11:24 AM
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intlcutlass Member
Posts: 1431 From: Cleveland,Oh.44067 Registered: Nov 2002
I didn't even realize I still have an email he sent to me...... Here is a part of that email: " can not stress highly enough the need to size the turbo in order to provide as high an efficiency as possible for forced induction in a Fiero. There is very little room for even a marginally adequate intercooler, and a turbo exceeding its designed efficiency levels will do little more than superheat the intake charge, resulting in increased detonation potential and reduced performance. In order to obtain the 14 - 16 psig boost levels needed for a 300 hp 3.1 V6, you will need a turbo capable of flowing at well over 500 cfm. About the only thing you will find in a junk yard that even meets this criteria will be off of a Buick grand national or T-Type, and by the time you done rebuilding that, you would likely have been better off from a $$ standpoint if you had just purchased a new aftermarket turbo to begin with. The turbocharger I use is called a TDO5H-big16g, its fully ported, with the turbine wheel clipped 10 degrees, and a 34 mm wastegate flapper. With its current modifications, it can deliver around 560 cfm which equates to nearly 400 hp if ALL factors were ideal, they never are… J I use a custom forged piston designed to drop the compression ratio by 0.5, TS Extreme rings, a high volume oil pump, an oil cooler, and a dual pass Blackstone intercooler with a 10" Perma Cool fan to help provide more air flow through it at lower speeds (heat soak generally presents its ugly face after a spirited run when coming to a stop, such as a traffic light). All this was done on a "brand new" 99' 3100 SFI motor, so that unknown factors (i.e. Wear) would not play a part. The stock "normally aspirated" 99' 3100 SFI motor produced around 170 hp, has a reinforced block with cross bolted mains, integrated windage tray, and a full roller valve train. Its GEN III aluminum heads were ported and equipped with polished valves, but they would outflow anything else you would find even in stock form. In other words, the motor was purpose built for high boost levels, and I currently run around 14 psig. Although I did base my engine management on the TGP system, the code has been highly optimized to work precisely with my motor. Aftermarket chips cannot even compare…and they simply do not provide the performance increases that they advertise. In most cases, we have found that only one or two areas in the code in these chips has been changed. Any GM tuner worth a salt will require extended access to the vehicle for performance code development, and if you can burn an eprom yourself, you will be light years ahead of what any 3rd party can offer.
Even with all of that, G-tech testing indicates that I am producing about 280 hp, good enough to touch into the 12 sec 1/4 mile area… and this level of turbocharged pushrod 60V6 performance did not come without a hefty price tag.
Mick
_________________ 88 Fiero Formula 5-spd Turbocharged / Intercooled 99' 3100 VIN M "
I found this guy to be incredibly helpfull for direction on my Turbo project.
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12:33 PM
Maetrix66 Member
Posts: 621 From: Hartland, ME, USA Registered: Nov 2002
Mick, or Mechanic, as he is known on the 60degreev6.com forums, has been incredibly helpful to me as well. i am running a t3 turbo in mine, well, technically it isn't running yet, maybe Sunday, but there are a ton of ways to program your ecm to run with boost if you use a 3.1 OBD-1 computer with the TGP code. I can't wait untill I get my engine swap done to start playing with it.
The man has been through that setup frontwards and backwards, take his words as the gospel.
[This message has been edited by Maetrix66 (edited 03-12-2004).]
I agree that my IHI is not the biggest turbo, but they do create boost relatively low, 2000rpm's and continue till around 6000rpms, not 4500 as someone stated, just what the fiero needs, a little more horse for the torque. I'm not expecting huge performance numbers, but an additional 75hp on my 2.8 will keep me plenty happy till I can afford something dangerous in my later years. I too have an intercooler, to make sure no hot air is going to the engine, and also to cool things down. Ideally I'd want 200hp at the wheels, with more torque to go with my 5 speed, but even if that's crank hp, its going to be a big improvment over 140ish.
I am the one that said that but you are misquoting me. I never said the turbo couldn't make boost past 4500 rpm. I said the turbo would be blowing nothing but hot air after 4500 rpm. That tiny thing is well out of its efficiency range by then. Hot air leads to detonation which leads to blown engines.
Get the proper sized turbo and not some j-yard thing because it was cheap or free. Most of the turbos you guys pull off of cars in the junkyards are for 2 liter 4 bangers from the late 80's Seriously how well do you think they would work on a 3.4 liter engine that flows a bunch more air?
Also you will not see an extra 75 hp with 5 psi or less esp with that turbo. Its way too small. With that small turbo you need over 10 as it pushes absolutely no air. And after 10 psi on a 2.8 and above is nothing but hot air after 4500 rpm.
With that small turbo in order to see 200 crank hp you need 10+ psi of boost.
Do it at your own risk but just lettign you know now its not wise to use that turbo. But hey its your money and yoru engine.
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04:36 PM
hoola47 Member
Posts: 526 From: London, Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
I agree, with the small turbo you will be blowing hot air in trying to reach an additional 75hp, but that's why i have an intercooler. My setup is also on a smaller engine, the 2.8 not the 3.4, the only reason I chimed in was because the person who started this thread also has an IHI. I never said I was going to run 5psi, nor did I mention how much. Before I crank up the boost, I will have an overhaul on the engine with lower compression forged pistons, rings etc. Even with this so called small turbo, I know I'll be able to get 200hp at the crank, if it's 8 psi, or 12psi it will happen. I'll just have to see if the efficiency of the turbo will run out before I get 200@ the wheels or not = roughly 240 at the crank. In any event you have to remember that the same psi doesn't apply to all turbochargers. A large turbo might be unsafe to run at 8 psi on a stock 2.8, creating too much pressure, but a small turbo might be able to run @ 8-10psi on a stock 2.8 with no problems, since it isn't producing as much power. I know the efficiency of the turbo will be the problem as it reaches it's limit, but if I feel the need for more speed at a later date, then like I said I'll do something different. For now its cheap, even on a stock 2.8 with no forged or performanc parts. Don't be so fast to shoot down ideas.
I agree, with the small turbo you will be blowing hot air in trying to reach an additional 75hp, but that's why i have an intercooler. My setup is also on a smaller engine, the 2.8 not the 3.4, the only reason I chimed in was because the person who started this thread also has an IHI. I never said I was going to run 5psi, nor did I mention how much. Before I crank up the boost, I will have an overhaul on the engine with lower compression forged pistons, rings etc. Even with this so called small turbo, I know I'll be able to get 200hp at the crank, if it's 8 psi, or 12psi it will happen. I'll just have to see if the efficiency of the turbo will run out before I get 200@ the wheels or not = roughly 240 at the crank. In any event you have to remember that the same psi doesn't apply to all turbochargers. A large turbo might be unsafe to run at 8 psi on a stock 2.8, creating too much pressure, but a small turbo might be able to run @ 8-10psi on a stock 2.8 with no problems, since it isn't producing as much power. I know the efficiency of the turbo will be the problem as it reaches it's limit, but if I feel the need for more speed at a later date, then like I said I'll do something different. For now its cheap, even on a stock 2.8 with no forged or performanc parts. Don't be so fast to shoot down ideas.
Why dont' you just overhaul the engine now and do the turbo build the right way the first time? You know you will get 200 crank hp? Yea you might but you will have to push a lot of boost. And more boost doesnt' always mean more air. So by going from 8 psi to 12 psi doesn't mean jack if the turbo can't push more air. I think you have the wrong idea on how a turbo works. just cause you run more boost doesn't mean you will make more power
Boost doesn't show how much air your turbo is pushing. Boost is a measure of how restrictive your intake and exhaust are. Its not about boost. Its about CFM
A larger turbo at 8 psi will make more power and heat the air less then a smaller turbo pushing 12 psi of boost. 8-10 psi on a smaller turbo is more pressure then a larger one at less boost. I think you have it backwards from your statements above.
And let me guess you are either using a intercooler off of a turbo thunderbird that you got from a j-yard or a Saab 900 intercooler. either way its an air to air unit. I can bet you will not be mounting it in any sort of way to have air flowing directly through it. A/A units need air flowing through them in order to cool the intake charge. Without air flowing through them they dont' do much. And sorry a little plastic fan that pushes 300 cfm wont' do the trick either. So your intercooler wont' do much other then cause a restriction in the intake which the turbo then has to work harder in order to flow the same amount of air which means that it will heat it even more!!!
How would I guess you are using an air to air unit? Read the statement below. Air/water is more expensive
quote
For now its cheap
That doesn't surprise me one bit. Seems to be the norm in reasoning around here when doing any sort of mod
But hey like I said its your engine and your money when you blow it up due to detonation and you gettign "boost happy"
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06:49 PM
hoola47 Member
Posts: 526 From: London, Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
You are probably right that I may have my turbo theory backwards, I'm new to turbo's and forced induction, but I don't see the big deal.
We are here to learn are we not, or should we adopt your critical attitude?
All I'm going to say is I will spend the money on engine management and dyno time to get everything set up right, safety of my engine is priority #1. You make such a big deal of not having the intercooler in an exposed air area, which makes sense, however, what did you think i was going to do with it? Obviously it's going to go away from the heat and into the air stream, there are numerous ways of doing this.
I never mentioned anything of a fan at all, however it does make sense to have one for daily traffic and so forth, if not, why do we have a fan in the front for the very same reason. I guess I'll just wait and see how things go. I could be wrong, and will possibly make mistakes, and I take your criticism as constructive, yet it is commonsense to know that if everything is laid out carefully and with research, my 2.8, the 3.4 fiero from above will be better performing vehicles with a turbo then without. What do you plan on doing, or what do you drive?
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07:59 PM
Mar 13th, 2004
FieroGT87 Member
Posts: 3195 From: St. Louis, Mo, USA Registered: Jul 2001
I'm new to turbo's but I've also done some research into this, and I hope I'm correct. The Turbo I have is new never been used, not a junk yard take off. I did some research before I said yes to buying it. This wasn't a buy and hope it fits type deal.
Two things I liked about the IHI turbo is it's small, and the number they state said it got the job done, other research I've done state the numbers are accurate by IHI. I've also been told to watch out about Garrett's chart numbers that they "boost" them to make them look better.
The RHB6 flows 592.7 CFM, so this turbo should meet my needs. I Took the engine capicity Cubic inches * 16.387 = 3360. Then I looked at the maximum RPM, 6000. Amount of boost I want to use is 4 psi. and I get 290 HP rating with 289.98 BHP. Air Flow is 26.68 lbs /min.
Like I said I am new to turbo's so I hoping I'm not missing something, I'm learning as I'm going here.
Thanks,
Earl
[This message has been edited by FieroGT87 (edited 03-13-2004).]
Originally posted by stevegibbs: In any event you have to remember that the same psi doesn't apply to all turbochargers. A large turbo might be unsafe to run at 8 psi on a stock 2.8, creating too much pressure, but a small turbo might be able to run @ 8-10psi on a stock 2.8 with no problems, since it isn't producing as much power. I know the efficiency of the turbo will be the problem as it reaches it's limit, but if I feel the need for more speed at a later date, then like I said I'll do something different. .................... But hey like I said its your engine and your money when you blow it up due to detonation and you gettign "boost happy"
I think it is important to realize that 8 psi IS in fact 8 psi, regardless of the turbo unit that is producing it, unless you are measuring at different places...... so let's assume you are measuring EITHER manifold pressure OR turbo outlet pressure. As long as you compare (any) two turbos by measuring at the same place for both, then the engine has no idea what turbo is on it. Where there WILL be a difference is in what else is happening to PRODUCE that 8psi...... and that is where matching the turbo to the engine AND to the (desired) driving conditions is going to be the important issue. So a big turbo prob won't be spinning as fast and depending on gearing and driving style and needs and all kinds of other factors it MAY be more efficient at 8psi than a smaller one (unless it is REALLY big) in which case it won't impart as much heat to the intake air as a smaller one. This is solely subject to WHERE EITHER UNIT RUNS in its efficiency range to produce that target 8 psi. Reading and understanding of turbo maps req'd for this. If the small one is running at 75% efficiency and the big one is running at 68% efficiency (not fully spooled up yet etc), THEN "at that particular delivery pressure" the SMALLER one will heat the air less. This is where all the planning and calcs come in. You certainly can install a (any) turbo and then basically 'see what it will do' and as long as you have safeguards and gauges and are being careful etc you can push it and then figure out what to tweak and change and how far you can go. It is your engine of course and your 'dime'. There are some REALLY good books on the subject that have a lot of insightful comments and also mention other items that might not be so readily thought of. Good luck to you!
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04:10 PM
FieroGT87 Member
Posts: 3195 From: St. Louis, Mo, USA Registered: Jul 2001
I was talking with a few people on the 60* forum. One guy is running a stock 3400 except for a underdrive pulley. He's putting out about 330 HP running 10 PSI boost and 19-20* advance on his timing. The only problem he is having is his tranny.
hellofa fight) anyway now to make it happen. Thanks for the replies.
