I put this in another topic, but it doesn't seem to be getting any attention.

Getrag 282 vs TH125c
How much power does it take to run each?
(how much loss is there w/ each)

How much power can the Getrag handle (reasonably)?

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May those that love us love us. For those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts. But if he can't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles, so that we may know them by their limping.

Wow!!!!!
10 minutes and no one answered. Can't imagine that. Patience is a virtue.

It seems that your question begs more questions.
Are you staying stock?
Want to race or just drive?
and so on......

I doubt that there is enough of a difference to really matter stock. If auto, you'd be better to change to a 4 spd auto anyways. The 5 speed suffers due to the long cable linkage which slows down the shifting. They both have ups and downs.

If you just want to drag race a good modern auto will likely be faster than a standard, given the same driver, IMHO.

It wasnt a patience problem, I just didnt use a very good title on the other one.

More a question of curiosity than anything else...
What I am trying to figure out is how much power each tranny eats up, or
in other words how much power actually sees the rear wheels with the
auto vs the standard.

Oh, you're interested in parasitic power loss? I don't know about the fiero specific transmissions, but I've heard of some automatic transmission drivetrains having as much as 20% parasitic power loss, while some manual transaxles are as low as 9-11%. Automatics will most always take more power to operate than a comperable manual transmission. Also, since there are a fewer number of gears (not all the time, but sometimes) the gear ratios won't be as close together, so an engine has to have a broader torque and power band to operate effectively.

The way I look at is.....

Auto = Boring
Getrag = Fun

quote Originally posted by ManiMack: The way I look at is..... Auto = Boring Getrag = Fun

Word

I have 2 88 GT's One is an auto, the other is a Getrag.

The Getrag equipped car is quicker on acceleration, faster top speed, and gets an extra 10mpg over the auto.

dunno what the power losses are thru either transaxle, but if you look up performance figures, that should give a good clue.

Well, I've finally been talked into it.

I'm going stick.

quote Originally posted by ManiMack: The way I look at is..... Auto = Boring Getrag = Fun

The way I view it is: ( and remember it's only my opinion, you decide which is best for you)
Stick = far more expensive to replace, slow shifting ( especially the Fiero linkage), less strength, lower reliability ( tranny clutch, shift cylinders) ,slower and inconsistant for drag racing, a bear in Stop and go traffic but fun to drive, better mileage and smoother on the highway (especially the five speeds).
Auto= the overwhelming choice of drag racers, far more consistant in the 1/4 mile, can be modified for greater strength, lightning fast firm shifts are possible, greater reliability, no missed shifts, - (just slam it to the floor and hold on), slightly less mileage, and not as smooth on the highway.
My preference for the auto is well known but I own a stick Fiero also. While I find it fun to drive that Fiero shifter is really the pitts, certainly no Hurst that's for sure.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://www.turbochargerpower.com/turbo.htm

I swapped my auto for a four speed Muncie with the 3.65 final drive. It really transforms the car. The manual is lighter and it has more gears than the auto. I didn't see any reason to put in a Getrag I very rarely go over 100mph . Now my car is faster and handles better. I now have almost exactly what I wanted from the start.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Stick = far more expensive to replace, slow shifting ( especially the Fiero linkage), less strength, lower reliability ( tranny clutch, shift cylinders) ,slower and inconsistant for drag racing.

I am not convinced that is true...
I have ridden in "Revin's" 3800SC 5-speed and when we took off and he ran through the gear's, I did'nt have time to pull my head off of the seat before he was making it scream into the next gear and throwing my head back into the seat.. Go revin..... haha

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AKA. "SmoothGT"....
Custom Built SHAVED~WIDEBODY~GT!!

quote Originally posted by NotAFieroAnyLonger: I am not convinced that is true... I have ridden in "Revin's" 3800SC 5-speed and when we took off and he ran through the gear's, I did'nt have time to pull my head off of the seat before he was making it scream into the next gear and throwing my head back into the seat.. Go revin..... haha

There are always exceptions to the rule, however, surely you aren't saying that drivers of manuals can consistently get the same launch/times as drivers of an auto transmissions? Or are you?

[This message has been edited by Mastermind (edited 01-25-2004).]

I'm not into bracket racing....seems kinda pointless IMHO.
I'm not into drag racing either...only light to light on occasion.

Like has been said. Just depends on the use of the car.

The biggest problem with Automatic in Fiero is the TH125c. The three speed auto does have it's limits. It was made to be a cheap trany for econobox cars. This is why a bunch of people have installed 4T60 which has a lower 1st gear and OD 4th. Even if the two have the same transmission ratio the 4T60 is quicker and gets better fuel economy.

Automatics can be configured with a number of transmission ratios and have more ratio options than any of the manuals. Trans ratio is the combined effect of the chain and final drive. The table for 4T60 and TH125c is in my cave. See Gear Ratios.

A 4T60 with the lowest transaxle ratio will probably match or out pull all the manuals even the Getrag 4.10 due to the TC multiplier. Most OE auto setups have higher gears.

Given everything else the same... No matter how fast or consistantly you think you can shift a manual, a properly configured auto will beat you just about every time. This is even more true of a properly configured and programed 4TxxE based drivetrain.

A 4Txx or 4TxxE automatic can configured to both out pull the TH125c and get better fuel economy. Depending on how low it is geared it can significantly out pull the TH125c and get about the same fuel economy.

The "Fun" of owning a stick car wears off really fast when you live in an area with heavy traffic. It gets even less fun when the clutch problems start.

It is posible to convert an automatic into what is essentially a clutchless manual. This is usually only done for drag only cars as it is a pain on the street.

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Edison Carter: When did the News become Entertainment?
Murray: Since it was invented.

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

Interesting discussion. I personally like shifting and driving my 5 speed cars, but it all depends on what your goal is. Cruising, it doesn't really matter, but the manuals do get better mileage. If you're really going to bang the gears, be prepared to pull the Getrag out for replacing/rebuilding. Don't even consider putting an Isuzu behind a torquey engine, at least that's what I'm told by all the big boys in this hobby. I believe there are several folks on the forum that will agree with this statement, but as always some will argue the point. Though I'm going to put a 3.4 TDC in front of my Getrag and have some fun with it, but it won't have the same torque values that the 4.9 or 3800 SC have and I don't bang the gears anyway. Happy Fieroing.

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Ron
88 Formula, 4.9, auto, daily driver
88 Formula, 3800 SCII/4T65E Swap in Process, almost done.
88 Formula, 5 Spd, 3.4 TDC Swap in Process, just started.
88 Formula, Stock, 5 Spd, T Top, Special Days Only!

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: There are always exceptions to the rule, however, surely you aren't saying that drivers of manuals can consistently get the same launch/times as drivers of an auto transmissions? Or are you?

I know where he was coming from.. saying that the manuals in the fiero dont shift slow, yeah granted with autos you'll be more consistant everytime.. but whats the fun hit the pedal and go.. I'm not consistant on every run with my stick, but I sure dont pull off poor launches

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88 5spd Modified 3800 Series II SC Formula
Modifications 2004 - Intercooler | 2.8 pulley | 1 inch drop | Interior | 17 inch wheels

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The way I view it is: ( and remember it's only my opinion, you decide which is best for you) Stick = far more expensive to replace, slow shifting ( especially the Fiero linkage), less strength, lower reliability ( tranny clutch, shift cylinders) ,slower and inconsistant for drag racing, a bear in Stop and go traffic but fun to drive, better mileage and smoother on the highway (especially the five speeds). Auto= the overwhelming choice of drag racers, far more consistant in the 1/4 mile, can be modified for greater strength, lightning fast firm shifts are possible, greater reliability, no missed shifts, - (just slam it to the floor and hold on), slightly less mileage, and not as smooth on the highway. My preference for the auto is well known but I own a stick Fiero also. While I find it fun to drive that Fiero shifter is really the pitts, certainly no Hurst that's for sure.

Yes, an auto is the choice of pure drag machines. However, the automatic transmissions available are all heavier than the manual transmissions available, making them less desireable for any car that will be expected to turn corners.

I do not think that an manual is more expensive than an auto. Joe Average can buy a fully overhauled Getrag for something over $1,000, use it behind his 300 HP V8 and not have problems. Or he could buy a stock overhauled 125 and blow it up in a few thousand miles because it can't take the torque. He could then ship it off to you and have it built to take the punishment, but at that point the cost difference between the auto and the manual would be minimal at best. If Joe Average has the resources to overhaul the 125 himself for less money, then he can also probably lay his hands on the tools to overhaul a Getrag as well. The parts only cost for overhauling a Getrag is between $500 and $600, and the transmissions themselves can be had for less than $100 if you know where to look (I've gotten 6 for $80 each from the local I-Pull-It in the last year or so).
From the same source, a 125 will have the same cost. What are the parts costs for building it to take the same abuse that a freshly overhauled Getrag can take?

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Do that again, only mean it this time

Fiero is a sports car from factory, not a drag racer.
I'm so pissed that I bought an auto V6. My 84 stick shift was more excitement on the road then the slusher. Yeah the V6 is much faster, but comon... its the same auto in my buddies pontiac 6000 .. Maybe if it was a 4 speed it would be a bit more exciting.

Something is so lacking in our cars when you cant slam through gears and drop the clutch .

[This message has been edited by ManiMack (edited 01-26-2004).]

I wish I didn't buy an auto as well, no fun. But that's not my only reason I'm switching to a stick. 3000rpms @ 100km/h is not fun at all, hard on the engine life, and gas goes bye bye.
A five speed will increase the fun factor, the gas factor, as well as shed 100lbs from the car and give me more power, due to less driveline loss.

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1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, Best 1/4 = 16.1 at 83mph, mods, wires, CRX intake, and power pulley. Planning Turbo 2.8 swap for a little more umph!!!!

Bought for 2500$ Canadian.

quote Originally posted by hoola47: I wish I didn't buy an auto as well, no fun. But that's not my only reason I'm switching to a stick. 3000rpms @ 100km/h is not fun at all, hard on the engine life, and gas goes bye bye. A five speed will increase the fun factor, the gas factor, as well as shed 100lbs from the car and give me more power, due to less driveline loss.

The 125 is not a good trans for the Fiero IMO but if you use the 460/e then you really have something.

The are a few tricks of the trade to beef up and firm up the auto. Currently I am rebuilding the auto for autocrossing and road racing. You think at a stick would be better? But wait the auto can be mod and beefed up for just a few $$$. To actualy out perform the stick!
Such as:
1. Install the shift kit. Transgo SK125 <$15.
2. Install a higher stall speed converter i.e. ProTorque 2400rpm - 2800rpm $400.
3. Install smaller servos and larger & stronger clutch plates and stronger bands < $85.
4. Install larger and stronger chain <$65
All Sonnax Transmission Specialty parts.
5. Use Ford type F trans fluid instead of the Dexcron II or III trans fluid.
There are a few more stronger parts than are needed but the costs is under $25.
Type F fluid is designed to provide the faster response shifting due to its special friction properties that you need for the cltuches and the bands. This is an old drag racing tip for the autos. All early model fords autos are fast shifting devices.
Some in other words I have a very strong 125 trans that can and will be used for manually shifting and auto shifting. It all depends on the racing event. For example: Solo 2 - manual shift, for drag racing auto shifting.
Just my two cents.

"Ford type-F is designed for use in racing automatic transmissions which need the positive shift of a Type-F automatic transmission fluid. This ATF contains no slipperiness additives, producing faster shifts and quicker lock-up, and can reduce elapsed time in drag racing. A higher viscosity compared to conventional Type-F transmission fluids provides higher torque converter efficiency at higher temperatures and the enhanced extreme-pressure protection provides five-times better film strength when compared to petroleum ATFs, reducing gear and clutch wear considerably. This product is designed to be used where Type-F fluids are recommended or for racing transmissions which need quicker shifts than provided with Dexron II fluids. This product can also be used in manual transmissions which require ATFs, providing better gear wear and better shiftability."

I don't see why everyone says a manual in traffic is hard to deal with. Almost all the cars I've ever owned were stick, and I've never really noticed any major inconveinience (sp?) in traffic. Yes, your left foot is busier with a stick vs. an auto, but it's no big deal IMO. For me, the fun of a stick is worth the tiny bit of extra effort it takes in traffic.

Now if you're going to race, then a well-configured 4-speed automatic is probably the best choice. But as others have said, the stock Fiero auto really isn't much of a performer.