Speaking of pump gas... A general rule of thumb is that you need 10 points of octane rating for every 1 point of static compression ratio. Now that is general and todays engine management can stretch that a little but 13:1 will cause you problems at the pump. You should see if there are lower compression pistons off the shelf to lower it to about 10:1. G/L
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12:04 AM
88-DOHC Member
Posts: 442 From: San Jose, CA, USA Registered: Dec 2001
You can make 275hp from a 3.4 DOHC without having to move to that insane of a compression ratio. Both me and DKOV have had 270+ HP 3.4 DOHC n/a cars. Mine was mostly done via custom headers, custom intake and a change in cam timing. DKOV had his heads ported/polished and a few other mods as well. This was all on premium pump gas.
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01:37 AM
Will-Martin Member
Posts: 1164 From: DFW, TX, USA Registered: Aug 2002
You can make 275hp from a 3.4 DOHC without having to move to that insane of a compression ratio. Both me and DKOV have had 270+ HP 3.4 DOHC n/a cars. Mine was mostly done via custom headers, custom intake and a change in cam timing. DKOV had his heads ported/polished and a few other mods as well. This was all on premium pump gas.
275? Wow! Have either of you done any writeups on your installs?
Thanks,
--Will
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11:34 AM
sspeedstreet Member
Posts: 2306 From: Santa Maria, CA Registered: Dec 2002
Chevy 60-Degree V6 The Chevrolet 60-Degree V6 is a compact powerhouse. This innovative engine has beaten both the competition and the elements in off-road racing. It is a proven winner in sports car racing, and it has a promising future on America's oval tracks in the Midget classes. A Chevy V6/60-degree engine is the perfect power-plant for a high-tech street rod or an ultralight autocross machine. GM Performance Parts offers the basic building blocks for a high-performance V6/60-degree, including light alloy engine cases, high-compression pistons, and high-volume pumps. Chevrolet's 60-degree V6 has been produced in two distinct versions. First generation V6/60-degrees have cast iron cylinder heads with inline valves; second generation engines have aluminum cylinder heads with splayed valves. First generation engines V6/60-degrees are produced for front-wheel-drive and rear-wheel-drive vehicles exclusively. Parts are interchangeable between the two versions except as noted in the part descriptions below. Chevy V6/60-degree engines are available with 2.8-liter (173 cubic inch) and 3.1-liter (189ci) and 3.4-liter (207ci) displacements. 1985 and later V6/60-degree blocks have larger main bearings than pre-l985 engines; these late-model blocks are recommended for high-performance and competition applications. All Chevy V6/60-degree engines use metric fasteners exclusively.
MSD Ignition & NGK plugs are a big plus as well ... the grantelli MAFs for the LT1 cars is also a nice powergain, and the TB can also be bored a little for a bit more power.
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07:02 PM
DustoneGT Member
Posts: 1274 From: The U.S. Superstate Registered: Dec 2002
Chevy 60-Degree V6 The Chevrolet 60-Degree V6 is a compact powerhouse. This innovative engine has beaten both the competition and the elements in off-road racing. It is a proven winner in sports car racing, and it has a promising future on America's oval tracks in the Midget classes. A Chevy V6/60-degree engine is the perfect power-plant for a high-tech street rod or an ultralight autocross machine. GM Performance Parts offers the basic building blocks for a high-performance V6/60-degree, including light alloy engine cases, high-compression pistons, and high-volume pumps. Chevrolet's 60-degree V6 has been produced in two distinct versions. First generation V6/60-degrees have cast iron cylinder heads with inline valves; second generation engines have aluminum cylinder heads with splayed valves. First generation engines V6/60-degrees are produced for front-wheel-drive and rear-wheel-drive vehicles exclusively. Parts are interchangeable between the two versions except as noted in the part descriptions below. Chevy V6/60-degree engines are available with 2.8-liter (173 cubic inch) and 3.1-liter (189ci) and 3.4-liter (207ci) displacements. 1985 and later V6/60-degree blocks have larger main bearings than pre-l985 engines; these late-model blocks are recommended for high-performance and competition applications. All Chevy V6/60-degree engines use metric fasteners exclusively.
This is all true, but they are only talking about pushrod engines. The 3.4 DOHC is in its own little world. This is a totally different motor than the iron or aluminum 3.4 pushrods mentioned above.
------------------ May those that love us love us. For those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts. But if he can't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles, so that we may know them by their limping.
While the idea of Aluminum heads sounds good, as does the higher compression, I'd like to explain why you should abandon that idea. GM says for performance, the iron heads are prefered. The aluminum head's intake and exhaust ports won't match your Fiero intake and exhaust. The iron heads that are on the Fiero and later iron head 3.4 are the H.O. heads and are capable of producing 1.5 horsepower per cubic inch.
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08:08 PM
pred1tor83 Member
Posts: 1872 From: Washington DC Registered: Dec 2000
****SNIP**** Heads for the 60º V-6 come in two flavors; Aluminum and Cast Iron. The Second generation Aluminum heads are far better than their Iron counterparts, utilizing larger diameter splayed valves, and a heart shaped combustion chamber to promote swirl. The Gen 3 heads outflow Gen 2 as well, so for the most flow, you will want to start with these.
Here is what GM has to say about their heads.
Cast Iron Cylinder Head, Part # 14054884
This high-performance cast iron cylinder head is used on High Output transverse-mounted and fuel-injected RWD V6/60 engines. It is machined for 1.72" diameter intake valves and 1.42" exhaust valves. (Standard heads have 1.60" intakes and 1.30" exhausts.) This cylinder head is recommended for off-road V6/60 racing engines.
Aluminum Cylinder Head, Part # 10048649
Production "Generation II" V6/60 transverse mounted engines have aluminum cylinder heads with splayed intake and exhaust valves. This canted valve design enhances cylinder breathing by unshrouding the valves at max lift. The high-velocity intake runners and heart-shaped combustion chambers promote swirl in the cylinders for efficient combustion. Spark plugs are centrally located in the chambers. These heads are machined for 1.72" intake and 1.42" exhaust valves.
Aluminum Cylinder Head, Part # 10218168
These Gen III cylinder heads are used in late model V6/60 engines for improved performance. They feature an increase of .040" in intake valve diameter and a reshaped port for a flow improvement of 16.7% at 0.450" of valve lift. The exhaust port has been reshaped into a "D" port configuration for a flow improvement of 31.7% at 0.450" of valve lift.
See the In Depth area for a guide on head porting.
The iron heads that are on the Fiero and later iron head 3.4 are the H.O. heads and are capable of producing 1.5 horsepower per cubic inch.
So, the fiero head can support 300hp on a 3.4L ? not forced induction? with the intake restrictions not factored in ofcourse. if this is true you just saved me alot of work. Can someone back this up? Orief, I know you have flowed a couple heads...whats the story here?
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11:26 PM
SMorris Member
Posts: 721 From: San Antonio TX Registered: Aug 2002
Ok... Fisrt of all, I want to say hello to my fellow S.A. PFF member!
Secondly, i think the subject is still confused!
"I think you may be confusing motors.There is both a 3.4L pushrod and DOHC engine. Iron heads are only on the pushrod version."
This is true!
"I'm not saying it doesn't. Just that the LQ1, VIN X, TDC, DOHC motor only came with aluminum heads (and never in a van)."
Also true!
All of the quotes from chevy 60-degree are about the 3.4l pushrod motor, not the Twin Dual Cam 3.4l motor. The difference is the TDC part. (overhead cams as oppossed to the more traditional pushrod/rocker type set up)
The only heads that will fit on the TDC are TDC heads! All are aluminum.
One other note, there are by far more high performance upgrades for the pushod motor, as far many more we made, over a way longer time..
on the TDC, you are pretty much limited to the following...
"custom headers, custom intake and a change in cam timing. DKOV had his heads ported/polished and a few other mods as well. "
But then, with a motor that sweet to begin with...Why mess with it? (warning, may be biased, as it's what is going into my car!)
Stephen
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11:49 PM
Jan 22nd, 2004
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
It is ture that aftermarket parts support is virtually non-existent but as was said... Why mess with it?
Yeah, I used to think so too!
After running my car around stock and it being the most fun I've had on four wheels for quite a while, I bought a Lotus Esprit Turbo and had my real first taste of heavy boost. Of course, I liked it and was addicted immediately to more power!!!
I supercharged my Durango R/T and set about researching more power for my 3.4L DOHC. As I mentioned, after a LONG and difficult search, I discovered that there were only TWO places in North America that had anything for this motor... Both little shops and both doing P&P jobs on the intake manifolds and one of the two doing P&P work on the heads. They also sold me a fuel pressure riser and an underdrive pulley. Naturally, I had my Heads and Intakes done at over $2600 and bench flowed them when they returned,
I found that the P&P job looked like it was done with a dremel tool and grinder bit and the bench flow revealed that I really only picked up about 12 cfm. Very disappointing. Apparently more than a few folks thought that way too, because both companies are now out of business.
So now what?
Well, I bought another set of heads and took them to a professional RACE motor builder and had them P&Pd and port matched to a re-P&Pd set of intakes and had them bench flowed... Amazingly, I picked up 47 cfm from the new P&P'd heads!!! 47!!! That's about 17% increas in flow!!! In addition, I added new valves and new valve cuts, shelved the exhaust valves.
I ported my Throttle Body and enlarged it as well. Using the Fuel Pump from a 3.8 SC motor eliminated the use of the fuel pressure riser system so that is history. I'm still using the Underdrive Pulley though. I had the crank knifed a bit too.
My Motor Builder will cut custom cams but I have not gone that far yet... cost mostly but the stock cams actually do quite well when timed better. I've heard of folks going all the way out to 12 degrees negative on the exhaust without hurting drivability but for my application, 6 or 9 degrees will be all I use.
I did manage to find an aftermarket set of Pistons that are BIGGER than stock, so I opened up the block about .060 over and Installed them too. 327 rods will fit also with minor mods. Shot peened those bad boys. Total displacement then should be around 3.5L
All this is in prep for the T3-T4 Turbocharger running about 10-12 lbs normally, with the ability to crank to 18 lbs for that documented dyno pass. Yes, it will be intercooled and spritzed (for cooling not nO2). I'll be running a 50/50 water/alchohol spray in the intake also.
I don't know that custom headers are much worth looking into. The stock headsrs are suprisingly efficient. The only thing I did with mine is to buy an extra set and use to of the left straight headers (right side is mounted upside down) to get the exhaust pointed out the side evenly and crossed them with a custom Y Pipe.
In short, the heads are Aluminum and the intakes are cast. The Block is cast as well. The cranks are cast stock but there WERE forged available at one time and I was lucky enough to get one. The rods are forged and pretty good but 327 rods are better. Aftermarket valves are pretty much to the same spec as stock. Keith Black makes Hyper U picstons that are pretty decent and also come in plus sizes. Stillen makes the fuel pressure riser. I have no idea where to get that underdrive pulley I have now. Removing the Power Steering and AC pumps and replacing them with idler pullies will gain a few ponies. Retard the cams but use stock. You can grind the echaust lobes a bit to increase lift and/or duration but that's a risky move with hard to find cams. We can do the P&P for the intakes and heads for you if you need it done. Free up that exhaust using 2 - 2.5, I have 2.25 and no CAT.
All of this should get you 270 or more HP normally aspirated. More if you deck the heads too, but then you have to much compression to run a Turbo.
Charged you can expect more than 400 HP and I hope to document 500+ when I'm done.
I hope I haven't created MORE questions than answers but mostly I hope I helped
DKOV -
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11:58 AM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
Could you guys be so kind as to post your dyno graphs?
quote
Originally posted by 88-DOHC:
You can make 275hp from a 3.4 DOHC without having to move to that insane of a compression ratio. Both me and DKOV have had 270+ HP 3.4 DOHC n/a cars. Mine was mostly done via custom headers, custom intake and a change in cam timing. DKOV had his heads ported/polished and a few other mods as well. This was all on premium pump gas.
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12:14 PM
THE BEAST Member
Posts: 1177 From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA Registered: Dec 2000
I know the heads and everything flow good on these engines but they have basically the same bottom end as all the other 60 degree v6 engines so how strong is the bottom of these engines with studs and such. In other words around how much horspower can they take before the mains get pushed down. Thanks
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04:04 PM
pred1tor83 Member
Posts: 1872 From: Washington DC Registered: Dec 2000
The only heads that will fit on the TDC are TDC heads! All are aluminum.Stephen
here is where you are wrong and thus the reason for my post.....
***snip*** Heads for the 60º V-6 come in two flavors; Aluminum and Cast Iron. The Second generation Aluminum heads are far better than their Iron counterparts, utilizing larger diameter splayed valves, and a heart shaped combustion chamber to promote swirl. The Gen 3 heads outflow Gen 2 as well, so for the most flow, you will want to start with these.
Here is what GM has to say about their heads.
Cast Iron Cylinder Head, Part # 14054884
This high-performance cast iron cylinder head is used on High Output transverse-mounted and fuel-injected RWD V6/60 engines. It is machined for 1.72" diameter intake valves and 1.42" exhaust valves. (Standard heads have 1.60" intakes and 1.30" exhausts.) This cylinder head is recommended for off-road V6/60 racing engines.
Aluminum Cylinder Head, Part # 10048649
Production "Generation II" V6/60 transverse mounted engines have aluminum cylinder heads with splayed intake and exhaust valves. This canted valve design enhances cylinder breathing by unshrouding the valves at max lift. The high-velocity intake runners and heart-shaped combustion chambers promote swirl in the cylinders for efficient combustion. Spark plugs are centrally located in the chambers. These heads are machined for 1.72" intake and 1.42" exhaust valves.
Aluminum Cylinder Head, Part # 10218168
These Gen III cylinder heads are used in late model V6/60 engines for improved performance. They feature an increase of .040" in intake valve diameter and a reshaped port for a flow improvement of 16.7% at 0.450" of valve lift. The exhaust port has been reshaped into a "D" port configuration for a flow improvement of 31.7% at 0.450" of valve lift.
See the In Depth area for a guide on head porting.
***snip***
Lets make sure everyone is on the same page.... the motors i am talking about ARE
PUSH ROD SIngle Cam
much like the 2.8
however i am dealing with a larger bore and stroke, making mine a 3.4l
As per the artical i posted there are three generations of these haeads... to the best of my knowledge, GEN 1 were on our car to begin w/(2.8)
Gen 2 are aluminum.... I would like to know what year they started to produce this version as well as some specs on them....
28cc 1.72" intake 1.42" exhaust
Gen 3 is the aluminum version but better flowing than that of Gen 2...
These Gen III cylinder heads are used in late model V6/60 engines for improved performance. They feature an increase of .040" in intake valve diameter and a reshaped port for a flow improvement of 16.7% at 0.450" of valve lift. The exhaust port has been reshaped into a "D" port configuration for a flow improvement of 31.7% at 0.450" of valve lift.
Hello the confusion that Im seeing here is in your question when you say 3.4 TDC. The TDC is a reference to twin cams or dohc both being over head cams which apparently is not what you have. Im reading you have a push rod 3.4 engine, this is a easy error to make so no one should be too hard on you thanks Norm
------------------ Norm Vandermee
[This message has been edited by normsf (edited 01-22-2004).]
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06:36 PM
pred1tor83 Member
Posts: 1872 From: Washington DC Registered: Dec 2000
A 3.4L TDC and a 3.4L DOHC are the same thing... Twin Dual Cam (total of four cams). The cams actuate the valves by direct contact through a hydraulic tappet.
A 3.4L or 3400 motor are Pushrod motors.
Different oiling. Different heads. Different Cams. Different Valves. etc.
If it came from a Camaro... it is NOT a 3.4L TDC/DOHC motor... you'll see right off that the motor doesn't have the GIGANTIC heads and additonal cam towers that is SO identifiable on the TDC/DOHC motor.
Or the black metal sticker running across the Plastid plenum saying "3.4L Twin Dual Cam" or "3.4L DOHC". The pushrod motors don't even have a plastic plenum cover and the 3400 or 3.4L is cast into the intake.
Umm what else... oh yeah, the tack from the car it came from won't have a 7500 red line UNLESS it was a TDC/DOHC motor
In short.... does it look like this: which is a TDC/DOHC motor
Best,
DKOV -
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11:34 PM
Jan 23rd, 2004
pred1tor83 Member
Posts: 1872 From: Washington DC Registered: Dec 2000
So, the fiero head can support 300hp on a 3.4L ? not forced induction? with the intake restrictions not factored in ofcourse. if this is true you just saved me alot of work. Can someone back this up? Orief, I know you have flowed a couple heads...whats the story here?
Well Here is the story. The Cast H.O. heads for the pushrod 3.4L will flow enough air to support 190hp max in stock form. With an excellent porting/polishing job they will flow enough to support 260 max. With a "typical" performance port/polish they are good to about 230hp. max. The "excellent" porting job is highly expensive and requires a lot of rework to the heads and valves. They actually increase the valve size and max port the bowls and ports. When I had my heads done, The cost for the "excellent" set-up was $600 per head. The typical performance was only $350 for both heads. With that being said, Any engine can be made to produce 1.5hp per cubic inch normally aspirated, The problem is the do you want to drive the car on the street or just the drag strip? To build an engine to produce 1.1 to 1.2hp per cubic inch usually makes the engine streetable. The 3.4L TDC/DOHC heads have a lot better flow and are easier to get to the 1.5hp per cubic inch and still be a streetable engine. I've seen twin cam engines get near 400hp with turbo's. The 3.4L pushrod with cast heads could get to 300hp with a turbo, but not with any of the factory intakes availible. Right now if you want over 200hp out of a 3.4L pushrod engine, There are only 2 ways to go. Either with a 4-bbl carb (as I have done) or Using the Edelbrock or Offenhouser 4-bbl intake with the Holley 4-bbl to 2-bbl adapter (the Edelbrock does have a 2-bbl riser that can be used and it has an EGR port if you need to pass local emission testing. The 4-bbl intakes do not have a provision for an EGR) and the Holley 670cfm pro-injection set-up. You need the aftermarket intakes for the flow. The Holley pro-injection set-up and the 4-bbl carb will produce nearly identical power given the rest of the engine being equal.
I need to find the link on my home computer, but there is a guy who built a 3.4L and used a Fageol supercharger at 9psi with a twin injector TBI from a 4.3L engine and an aftermarket controller. The truck dyno'd 285hp to the rear wheels. For a RWD truck that is close to 350hp at the flywheel. The entire engine cost him close to $20K to build and that is the highest output I've ever seen on a 60* pushrod engine that had dyno data to back it up.
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09:54 PM
Jan 24th, 2004
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1649 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
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