So I'm close to getting the cash for my 4.9, now I have to make decisions...
My GT is auto, but I love the power and control of a 5 speed....

So my mind is pretty much made up...but first I need to hear the "Pro's & Con's" of running the 4.9 with a Getrag...

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Well, it is a sports car right?

I enjoy rowing through gears so its an easy question to me, its all personal preferance. Most people will say stick with the 4 speed that comes with it but thats boring.

All you need is a modified cavalier Z-24 V-6 flywheel and a cavalier cluch. Notch the transmission for the cadillac starter and there you go, 5 speed V-8.

It may be alittle harder with your car, you would need to add a clutch petal, hydraulic system and the shifter and selector cables but that can all be done in a weekend.

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86SC 5 speed
85GT 4.9 in progress
Will trade both for a decent V-6 fiero.

The pros:

Cost...can be done very inexpensive compared to other swaps like the SBC or 3800SC.
Gas Mileage....excellent.
The Motor..very durable and require little mantanance.
Power..good off the line power.
Driveability...like a sewing machine if you get over the computer issues.

Cons:

Goodies....Lack of hi Perf parts unless you do it yourself.
Heads ...ports are small and restrictive but can be ported somewhat.
Redline ...not a high revving motor so the power band drops off at about 41-4500 rpm.
Looks...not one of the prettiest engines after installing most look like a rat nest.
Misconception....like any good swap to do it right is going to cost$$$ and since this is regarded as an economy swap($1000 or less) some people just put it in the back of their mind that this price is what it must be and still look for 0-60 in under 5 seconds impossible.
If you are going to do all the work your self then it will be cheaper than going to a shop to have it done ....hope that answers some of your concerns.

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Tuners of the Quickest 4.9
12.51@118 mph

4.5 (RSR)Hi Perf. Caddi-V8
In place and running.

Do yourself a favor and stay with the auto or get a 4speed auto caddy tranny, No offense to stick shift 4.9s but Im lazy when it comes to driving and in florida traffic can get annoying.

Your stock tranny will work fine also and save you alot of money and no worry about getting a machined flywheel or being afraid that your going to fry your clutch.

And is a pain if your car is auto and you have to do the work in the converting it to stick.

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 01-13-2004).]

i think that the 5 spd is soo much fun i think autos are a little boaring you will be way happyer running through the gears in the 4.9

Joe Sokol III

It’s not fair to ask others for advice on this matter. Basically you are the only one that knows how you’re going to drive your car, and it’s how you want to drive your car that should determine what transmission YOU want.

Personally; I wanted a fun driver. A car that wasn’t a dragster but a whole lot of fun to hammer down once it was moving. So I bought an 88, chose a fast light motor, beefed up the suspension, fixed the weight distribution and converted from auto to 5 speed manual. I also made a conversion kit for the FWD Getrag, because I figure I’d go through a few.
But honestly I can’t think of anyone else that has done exactly as I have. Everyone’s needs are different.

So having said that, what transmission do you want? How do you want to drive you car? Answer that and you have solved your dilemma.

Aaron

.

From personal experience I can vouch for the fact that the stick is much more fun. However, in retrospect I would have used the Izuzu 5 spd instead of the Getrag. The Getrag is geared way to short for a stock 4.9 that won't rev very high. Just my $.02

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Don Hites
88 GT, Getrag 5spd, 4.9 v8 with a Delta cam and other heavy mods.
88 Coupe 5spd Duke
(now under restoration)

My 2 cents, I think you should build what you really want. If it is a 4.9 with a 5 speed, go for it. Now I will tell you the things I thought of for I am getting a 4.9 transplant in May. I have an 85 SE with a 4 speed. I was look at getting a donor car and use the engine and auto transmission (would not tear up manual transmissions, clutches and get better gas mileage). After talking to some experts on this subject I found out how much more there was to this swap besides just the engine and transmission. The shifter, the steering column, cooling lines to the radiator, and there were a few others things that would have to be changed or added. I have already spent a lot of time and $ making the car look and drive nice and I did not want to tear it up and replace a bunch of parts. So the end of the story is I bought a good engine and I am going to mate it up to my 4 speed. Now, if I had a car with the auto transmission in it I would have gone the other way.

Look at what you have, how you want to drive, how much you want to change, how much money you want to spend and build what you want, you need to make the decision. Good luck.

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Boys and Their Toys

I started with a 4 cyl 88' auto. I swapped in a 3.65 4 spd, and the 4.9L. Switching from auto to manual was actually quite easy. The caddy 4 speed auto will probably last the longest and handle the most abuse, but they arent near as much fun!!!

Thanks for all the responses guys.....yea, I know it's up to me and my preference...but I wanted to get
a general response as to how the 5 speed handles the power compared to the stock cady auto...

Ideally I would like to have an engine & trani that can be at low RPM's cruzing about 80 mph.

So what trani has the higher 5th gear ratio..?
Would this be the Getrag or the Isuzu..?

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My 87GT used to be a 5 speed. When I performed the 4.9 swap I converted to the 4T60e. Some will say that a stock fiero trans can handle a v8 if driven correctly but I say, if I am gonna slap a v8 in there, I want to drive it like my a$$ is on fire.
I have driven a manual trans 4.9 fiero, they are fun but I doubt there is one out there that will out launch a 4T60e. Mine hooked hard and no wheel spin. The key is to have the tranny built right so it shifts like a performance trans and not a caddy trans! This is pretty cheap (for auto trans work) if you can just drop off the tranny to a good builder. Booster valve, hardened cage, LSD and 3.33 gears if you dont have them or better.

Best advice, if you can drive both and decide from there. I can say I never did miss the shifting problems I used to have with the 5 speed.

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'02 Subaru WRX 14.61@91.87mph bone stock
'95 R33 Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec NISMO stage 1 400bhp
'92 Mini Cooper 1.3i 74 brain-numbing hp!!!
'87 Fiero GT 4.9/4T60e w/3.33 final drive, ZEX nitrous 65hp shot, 88 cradle w/ 325# coil overs, Poly everything, Upgraded sway bars, KYB's, 16X7 M11's, 11.25 "Zettner" front brakes, Complete MSD ignition w/ 6AL box, Custom 2.5" Flowmaster exhaust, Grand Sport Corvette paint, Carbon fiber interior trim, '98 T/A CD w/ ETR, Reverse Indiglo guages, Pillar mounted AutoMeter O2, Hella H4 conversion.
Follow its built up here:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/027460.html
Sadly... SOLD.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 01-13-2004).]

I agree with BV.
I built my 4.9 to hammer on, no questions asked. I like sticks and most of my last cars had them. My Fiero was a stick when I started and still retains all the components if I want to change back.
I spent a lot of time going over the pros and cons. I wanted the fun of a stick but I kept coming back to the reliability of the stick (a lot of people will tell you the stick is durable enough and I can not refute that as I have no dealings with 4.9 sticks)
I started out to build mine as a stick, and even got as far as plugging the flywheel and having the center bushing made. At that point, I lost my job. This gave me the time I needed to work on my car but not the funds. I decided the extra cost of the right clutch and finishing the flywheel would delay the job, and I had the auto parts there so......

After driving it for a couple months, I have no doubt I made the right choice. I will AUTOX the car (been out once allready) with the occasional trip to the drags. I have built a prototype transmission controller that currently over rides the ecu with the flip of a switch. It has a button on the shifter that each time pressed advances the trans 1 gear. At top gear, after slowing a bit, you flip the swith and the ecu resumes control of the trans. It is currentlly just for drag racing so I can control shift points (more important once I get my new motor with its higher redline, installed this spring). I am looking at adding a second button to allow down shifting however right now it is a simple stepper circuit and if I add downshifting, there will have to be some logic to be sure it is not down shifted at to fast a speed. I am looking into modifying a column with the radio controls in the wheel as a paddle shifter as in the new Grand Prix. I will be sharing this with the forum shortly.

Gene

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As said before its more of a driver preferance. I know stock 2.8 auto bored me but stock 2.8 stick was fun. Now that my wifes auto has the 4.9 its all fun. It climbs through the auto gears so quick.......

IMO. 4.9 is auto 3.4DOHC or 3800IIs/c is 5 speed.

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JUST HAD TO ASK.......while we're on the topic!!?!
ok well ive got a 5spd now (not sure if its izuzu or getrag how can i tell) but n e wayz will my stock clutch be ok if i dont kill it TOO bad or should i buy a tougher clutch while ive got it apart? also do all caddy 4.9 PFI's require the drilling of new starte holes?
Thanks,
Jerry

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-Bobadoo Funk-

http://bobadoofunk.tripod.com/funksfunkyfiero/index.html

You do not have to redrill any starter holes on the 4.9. It mounts in the stock location. The only mod required is cutting a small notch in the bellhousing.

A stock clutch will not last to long with any spirited driving. Not going to drive like that?? Drive one with a 4.9 then try to say that. If you still can, may as well stay with a V-6.

Gene

[This message has been edited by scrabblegod (edited 01-14-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroking: i think autos are a little boaring you will be way happyer running through the gears in the 4.9 Joe Sokol III

I might be inclined to agree with that statement if he was talking about a automatic with the stock 4/6 cyl engines. However, driving the 4.9 with the Caddy auto trans is anything but boring. All tho, I must admit to occasionally getting a little bored by how easily I can dismiss other cars with my 4.9 auto setup.

I have a question to add can you use a 2.8 fiero flywheel and are the spline the same on the clutch disc on the getrag and the isuzu
adam
88 coupe

well i have never driven a v8 auto fiero but driving my dads BMW is boaring i am not saying that all auto's are boaring because you can put shift kits in and stuff like that whitch can make them very fun. It's all what you like and want we wanted a manual so we did it with one.

Joe Sokol III

quote I have a question to add can you use a 2.8 fiero flywheel and are the spline the same on the clutch disc on the getrag and the isuzu adam 88 coupe

The flywheel/flexplate bolt pattern is different between a 2.8 and 4.9. You can either have a new flywheel made(expensive!), or you can have your old flywheel plugged, redrilled, recentered, and newtral ballanced. The splines on the Getrag and iszuz are the same.

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Don Hites
88 GT, Getrag 5spd, 4.9 v8 with a Delta cam and other heavy mods.
88 Coupe 5spd Duke
(now under restoration)

Go with the auto. It's easier to eat donuts and drink diet coke while you are driving.
-john fasterfiero.com

[This message has been edited by twodogjohnny (edited 01-14-2004).]

Yeah right, driving automatic Vettes, V8 Camaros and Firebirds is extremely boring, but it does leave more time to eat donuts, use cellphones and touch your girlfriend. All while dismissing other cars.

[This message has been edited by Mastermind (edited 01-14-2004).]

This has been posted before..but it deserves repeating.

The individuals who have had the greatest amount of experience competing with the 4.9 in autocross had the following information to offer.

Keep in mind that Tom Hill and Greg Duncan were the FIRST to produce a 4.9 Fiero. Before Bubba, before Ed, before it was even known by most Fiero owners that a 4.9 would even fit...they had several years experience racing the combination. They have raced both 5 speeds and automatics. Their opinions are worth considering very seriously.

The general concensus developed from several years of real world experience is that the automatic is the prefered trans for the 4.5 / 4.9 engine in "most" applications.
In terms of gearing, drivebility, launch / acceleration, application of power in a corner, total cost, ease of ECM integration, etc...the four speed 4T60 or 4T60E Cadillac automatic is the choice of most builders who have built both manual and auto trans 4.9 Fiero's.

This same issue was recently discussed on the Cadero Forum with opinions expressed from Tom Hill and Greg Duncan of Team Python, and George Ryan, Moderator of the Cadero Forum. These three gentlemen have had the greatest experience in pushing a 4.9 Fiero to the limits in autocross and road racing while George offers several years of real world street experiences.

Keep in mind also that Greg Duncan is the manufacturer of the 4.9 flywheels sold directly and through Ed Parks for use with the 4.9 manual conversions. His recommendation to go with an auto reduces his own sales potential of flywheels, yet to his credit, he still recommends the 4T60 auto.

They ALL agree that the automatic is the way to go.

I would not discount their opinions....yet there will still be some builders who simply prefer to drive a manual trans. The point is that you need to be aware of the tradeoffs if you do so.

The original posts are as follows:

Subject: Auto vs. 5 spd comparison...

I wanted to share with the group a couple of comments recently made by Tom Hill re: the Team Python car, relating to drivability between the 5 spd 4.9 and the automatic 4.9 that he and his partner have campaigned in autox down in AZ.

Tom is one of the best resources for real world performance of a 4.9 Cadero and I felt his assesment might help other builders who are debating the choice of transmission...

Kerry

Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:53 pm
Subject: Re: Auto vs. 5 spd comparison...

"I concur with Tom about the differences between the Auto vs. 5 spd. The first flywheel I made for the 4.9 powered "Pylon Python" weighed in at 11.75 lbs which made it quite snappy. Throttle control required extreme finesse to keep the rear end trailing the desired direction of travel instead of trying to lead.... One reason the flywheels I make now are 15 lbs. Though I do make a 9.6 lb version for V6's that could be done up for the V8 for those masochistic enough. 8-) Part of the problem as I see it is the Fiero transaxles are not geared properly for the power of a V8. Using taller tires helps but is still not the best answer. And even though I wouldn't mind selling more flywheels, overall the automatics offer enough better gearing that matches the V8 that I have to agree it is probably the best choice for street, autocross & drag racing. With the automatic he has in the car now, I have to say launches like you wouldn't believe!!! But it does require major traction to accomplish. He's got very soft racing slicks that measure 23.5x12-15 and it could almost use more....

Greg Duncan
Other half of Team Python Fieros
Tucson, AZ

"As for transmissions, I like the automatic much better than the 5 spd. With the manual the car was too much of an animal. You couldn't finesse that thing to save your life. If you even thought about getting out of the gas while in a turn (autox) the car would go into terminal oversteer. With the automatic, the car launches much harder than with the manual. You simply squeeze on the gas until you feel the tires start to let loose and then "regulate the squeeze" from
there. It almost feels like you're immediately at the top of 1st gear. One hell of a sensation. In a turn you simply modulate the go pedal to get optimum traction and G's. The only real problem I had with the auto is it liked to downshift by itself from 2nd to 1st and it usually picked the worst place to do it. I'm going to have to play with the throttle pressures a bit when I get the new and improved 4.9/5.0 going. As I said earlier, to date, I have not had any driveability issues related to the ECM with this transmission. Maybe
I should knock on wood or something."

Tom Hill
1/2 of Team Python "

From: George Ryan (Cadero)

"For any standard trans, you need a custom or altered (shudder) flywheel to
start - I have a light billet steel custom made by Greg Duncan with mine -
and a pretty healthy clutch - I have a clutch that Greg had special built by
Centerforce to match. The cost is therefore higher than it would be with an
auto trans.

Additionally, the engine is basically designed for an auto, and I personally
think that an auto is just a better match to the Caddy 4.9 series engine.

And all of this from a guy with a 3.35:1 FDR Isuzu 5 speed behind a 4.9. My
next one will be an auto, though.

G"

quote Originally posted by Seanpaul: So I'm close to getting the cash for my 4.9, now I have to make decisions... My GT is auto, but I love the power and control of a 5 speed.... So my mind is pretty much made up...but first I need to hear the "Pro's & Con's" of running the 4.9 with a Getrag...

Seanpaul, like you I already had a automatic. Mine was in my 87GT, yes it was a little boring driving a fast looking car (GT Fastback) that many 4 cyl imports could outrun because they had a stick vs. my automatic. Well with the 4.9 pushing the Caddy automatic, I have no worries. I have dispatched a new SS Monte Carlo, a late 80's early 90's Firebird, a mid 90's Camaro, a new Lexus 430, and imports too numerous to list. Oh, I almost forgot about abusing a early 90's Cadillac Deville driven by a woman who thought she could take my lane because she was driving a big car with a big engine and me in my small car and unbeknownst to her big engine. So after I spanked her she was surpised and ask what I had in it, I told her stock GM motor. She then tells me not to let her catch me on the highway. As if she could outrun me there. She stands a better chance of winning the lottery than outrunning me.

BTW You'll have all the power and control that you need right under you right foot.

Bottom line, since you already have a automatic, I'd keep it. I don't think it's worth all the additional work and possible complications. Unless you absolutely have to have a manual. Because the most boring thing about driving the 4.9 automatic is knowing most cars don't EVEN present a challenge in light to light showdowns.

[This message has been edited by Mastermind (edited 01-16-2004).]

I ran my 4.5 with the stock 4 speed muncie 4.10 and did not like the high rpms at speed (1st gear was basicly unusable). I have since switched to the caddy 440t4 and find it suits the engine perfectly. I did enjoy the 4 speed with the 2.5 though.

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White '84 SE w/ '89 Deville 4.5L/440T4, '87 coupe front and rear facia, '86 GT decklid and spoiler, Grand Am GT 16" wheels, KYB shocks & struts

Scrabblegod
I Cant wait till you post the info on your pushbutton control for the 4T60e that is going to be one VERY popular mod.

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: Seanpaul, like you I already had a automatic. Mine was in my 87GT, yes it was a little boring driving a fast looking car (GT Fastback) that many 4 cyl imports could outrun because they had a stick vs. my automatic. Well with the 4.9 pushing the Caddy automatic, I have no worries. I have dispatched a new SS Monte Carlo, a late 80's early 90's Firebird, a mid 90's Camaro, a new Lexus 430, and imports too numerous to list. Oh, I almost forgot about abusing a early 90's Cadillac Deville driven by a woman who thought she could take my lane because she was driving a big car with a big engine and me in my small car and unbeknownst to her big engine. So after I spanked her she was surpised and ask what I had in it, I told her stock GM motor. She then tells me not to let her catch me on the highway. As if she could outrun me there. She stands a better chance of winning the lottery than outrunning me. Thanks master....That's what I was looking for... and thanks Kerry for the info from the experts... Looks like the auto is the way to go for a first time swapper.... BTW You'll have all the power and control that you need right under you right foot. Bottom line, since you already have a automatic, I'd keep it. I don't think it's worth all the additional work and possible complications. Unless you absolutely have to have a manual. Because the most boring thing about driving the 4.9 automatic is knowing most cars don't EVEN present a challenge in light to light showdowns.

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The th125 is the fiero 3speed the 4t60 is the caddy 4speed and the 4t60e is the caddy 4 speed with the electronic shift the other 4speed OD trannies are from some buicks and oldsmobils.

quote Originally posted by Seanpaul: So I'm close to getting the cash for my 4.9, now I have to make decisions... My GT is auto, but I love the power and control of a 5 speed.... So my mind is pretty much made up...but first I need to hear the "Pro's & Con's" of running the 4.9 with a Getrag...

I would only do the matching automatic so it will pass emissions testing unless you know a tester that will ignore the engine change.

TK

What year 4.9's have what type of trani...?

Is there any performance advantage to the 4T60e..?

Would it be easier to get a harness for the 4T60 trani..?

I'm a little late on this, but better late then never

I don't have a 4.9, but I'd go matching tranny (auto) for gas mileage reasons, or as said before the 5spd is just fun

I just wish the 5spd was adapted from the firebird/camaro. I know there are performance tranny's out there for it. Unfortunetely were FWD which is my biggest pet peeve! and makes me a little worried when it comes to manuals. I still went manual none then less.

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88 5spd Modified 3800 Series II SC Formula
Modifications 2004 - Intercooler | 2.8 pulley | 1 inch drop | Interior | 17 inch wheels

quote Originally posted by Seanpaul: Hold up....what's is the 44ot4 ???I know the 4T60 is the Fiero 3 speed.... And the 4T60e is the caddy trani, but is it 3 speed with OD making it a 4 speed..? I'm confused....I know for sure, I need more than the stock fiero 3 speed can offer, I'm revving at 3500RPMs just to do 80 on the Freeway....

The TH125 is the Fiero 3 speed.

The TH440-T4 is the 4T60, just renamed, it's a 4-speed OD tranny. Before 1989 or 1990 it was the TH440-T4 and after it was the 4T60. The 4T60-E is the electronic shift version of the 4T60(which is vacuum controlled). [edit]And both were used in numerous cars, W-bodies, L-bodies, J-Bodies, etc. Not just Caddies.[/edit]

All 3 were built by Turbo Hydramatic(hence the TH).

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[This message has been edited by Street&Strip Performance (edited 02-17-2004).]